Stop Saying “Traditional” Martial Arts

[isshinryuronin]

Are there any extant Okinawan systems that consider themselves "jutsu" oriented?

I think most Okinawan systems certainly have this capability as "jutsu" is heavily imbedded in their kata bunkai as well as in their style's technique. That said, such a distinction is a function of the invidual school/instructor, rather than the style, especially in the West. But even in Okinawa karate is becoming more "do" and competition oriented as a general trend. I feel both can co-exist with minimum compromise. Some may prefer one or the other.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the point about competition. There's nothing in most of those sports formats that preclude classical technique. Stances, blocks, etc. Those things that are characteristic of specific styles. I think there's more to it than that.

I greatly disagree. Self-defense combat is usually very close-range, and such attacks as elbows and palm heels are difficult for judges to see clearly in the whirlwind of sparring and so will not score. (Refs in boxing often miss illegal elbows and face rips.) Competition is longer range based and so favors kicks and deep stepping attacks. Big attacks are easier to see and score. Styles whose doctrine also contains attacks to the knee, groin and throat will be at a disadvantage as these are usually prohibited. Sweeps, takedowns and even grabbing are a big part of some style's self-defense doctrine and are not allowed at some competitions.

Additionally, points are often scored simply due to contact, regardless of the attacker's balance and penetration capability. Such strikes would be ineffective in actual combat. There is a lot that "preclude classical technique." In classical karate the object is self-defense and injuring the opponent, in competition it's to score points. Two different goals = two different styles of fighting.

 

[ap Oweyn]

I greatly disagree. Self-defense combat is usually very close-range, and such attacks as elbows and palm heels are difficult for judges to see clearly in the whirlwind of sparring and so will not score. (Refs in boxing often miss illegal elbows and face rips.) Competition is longer range based and so favors kicks and deep stepping attacks. Big attacks are easier to see and score. Styles whose doctrine also contains attacks to the knee, groin and throat will be at a disadvantage as these are usually prohibited. Sweeps, takedowns and even grabbing are a big part of some style's self-defense doctrine and are not allowed at some competitions.

Additionally, points are often scored simply due to contact, regardless of the attacker's balance and penetration capability. Such strikes would be ineffective in actual combat. There is a lot that "preclude classical technique." In classical karate the object is self-defense and injuring the opponent, in competition it's to score points. Two different goals = two different styles of fighting.

That's a very narrow cross-section of combat sport that you're referring to. The second paragraph seems to be referring to point fighting. It certainly doesn't describe boxing, which is scored on a 10-point-must system. And there are hundreds of punches thrown in boxing that make contact but aren't regarded as meaningful enough to move the dial on that score. Nor are individual punches scored. They're scoring an overall effect.

Now to MMA. Elbows and palm heels aren't prohibited. Eye gouges sure. But elbows are commonplace in many combat sports. And palm strikes were the norm in Japanese pancrase. And, again, the ability to see individual strikes isn't how many combat sports are scored anyway. The ability to make the other person fall over is going to carry the day there. Hell, lethwei allows full headbutting. Doesn't get much more close-range than that.

Sweeps, takedowns, and grabs are par for the course in numerous combat sports, including muay thai, savate, sanshou, and others. Nevermind the obvious examples of MMA, BJJ, etc.

Yeah, eye gouges and throat grabs and other things are prohibited. But the limitations of training mean that people who do train those things remain very limited in their actual direct experience of applying them. Right? Again, I'd ask anyone who finds those things central to their practice how many times they've actually gouged an eye or stomped a knee.

In most of the competitions I'm describing, the goal is to defeat an opponent. Winning on points isn't generally the goal of a boxer or MMA fighter. It's the thing you settle for if you can't incapacitate them. What you want is a knockout or submission.

If two people are relying on a knee kick to come out of a fight in one piece, my bet is on the person who's planted their kick on a trained, conditioned opponent's thigh a hundred times over the person who's relied on the illegality of their technique to get them through.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Self-defense combat is usually very close-range, and such attacks as elbows and palm heels are difficult for judges to see clearly in the whirlwind of sparring and so will not score. (Refs in boxing often miss illegal elbows and face rips.) Competition is longer range based and so favors kicks and deep stepping attacks.

Do you know why "hammer fist" and "overhand" are not scored in Karate tournament? Also, MT roundhouse kick that kick with instep or shin bone is not scored in Karate tournament.

 

[isshinryuronin]

That's a very narrow cross-section of combat sport that you're referring to. The second paragraph seems to be referring to point fighting. It certainly doesn't describe boxing, which is scored on a 10-point-must system. And there are hundreds of punches thrown in boxing that make contact but aren't regarded as meaningful enough to move the dial on that score. Nor are individual punches scored. They're scoring an overall effect.

Now to MMA. Elbows and palm heels aren't prohibited. Eye gouges sure. But elbows are commonplace in many combat sports. And palm strikes were the norm in Japanese pancrase. And, again, the ability to see individual strikes isn't how many combat sports are scored anyway. The ability to make the other person fall over is going to carry the day there. Hell, lethwei allows full headbutting. Doesn't get much more close-range than that.

Sweeps, takedowns, and grabs are par for the course in numerous combat sports, including muay thai, savate, sanshou, and others. Nevermind the obvious examples of MMA, BJJ, etc.

Yeah, eye gouges and throat grabs and other things are prohibited. But the limitations of training mean that people who do train those things remain very limited in their actual direct experience of applying them. Right? Again, I'd ask anyone who finds those things central to their practice how many times they've actually gouged an eye or stomped a knee.

In most of the competitions I'm describing, the goal is to defeat an opponent. Winning on points isn't generally the goal of a boxer or MMA fighter. It's the thing you settle for if you can't incapacitate them. What you want is a knockout or submission.

If two people are relying on a knee kick to come out of a fight in one piece, my bet is on the person who's planted their kick on a trained, conditioned opponent's thigh a hundred times over the person who's relied on the illegality of their technique to get them through.

Yes, my 2nd paragraph does mostly relate to point fighting as you referenced TMA karate and TKD (as seen in your quote below). Most amateur competitions in these arts are still point fighting I believe. So that was what I was addressing. Boxing and MMA evolved as sports, so their methodology evolved according to the rule set. Accordingly, boxers do not have to change their art to fit into the rule set of boxing competition

(Classical) karate did not evolve as a sport and so must be changed to fit into a competition rule set. Thus, regardless of whatever karate style one is, they must adapt to the rule set and so undergo a convergent evolution, their technique, strategy and tactics conforming to same. The less restrictive the rule set is (and this includes full contact) the less conforming needs to be done. This leads to the main point:

Now, when karate, gung fu, taekwondo, etc. are being done in a sparring format, a lot of those stylistic differences you referenced tend to fade.

My last couple of posts addressed this point you made and support my statement that "sport" karate has become a style of its own. I'm not clear on exactly what point you're making with this post so I'm not sure if I've addressed/responded to your thoughts in an effective manner. Also note, that when I got my black belt, organized BJJ, MMA, muy thai, kickboxing and professional karate were essentially non-existent in the USA and no doubt affect my perspective for better or worse.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

when I got my black belt, organized BJJ, MMA, muy thai, kickboxing and professional karate were essentially non-existent in the USA

Back in 1973, the only martial art profession that exist in the US labor department was Judo instructor only. The term Karate or TKD were not even recognized by the US labor department back then.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Again, I'd ask anyone who finds those things central to their practice how many times they've actually gouged an eye or stomped a knee.

I practice eye gouging by sending my fingers in the direction of my sparring partner's eyes, but I don't extend. I only do this where eye gouge is part of something else. For example, the one that I train is part of a block /attack. This way I can just block and attack the arm and not block . attack the arm, and send my fingers forward.

other methods I'm not eye gouging but making sure that I'm not eye gouging. In other words I focus on hand placement. There's a technique that I use to place my palm underneath my sparring partner's chin, but I'm very carefully with how I place my hand and with keeping the thumb tucked and pointing to the cheeks. That way if my hand slips, my thumb slips across the check. I only use it in sparring because I think if my thumb will find the eye if I use it in competition, the more intense sparring is, the less chance I'll use it.

It looks similar to this. but the palm is not under the chin. It's under the Jaw which makes it easier to do a few thing without having to really reposition the hand.

In Jow Ga you will see them to this "pose" The fingers pointing down is the movement the hand makes to eye gouge with the thumb

I approach this way Placeing my hand under the jaw control the head.

Once the hand is on the jaw, the finger position looks more like this., but because your hand is under the jaw, your thumb will actually be on cheek. In order to gouge the eye, push the hand and flick the wrist downward . The picture below shows just how close that thumb is to the eye.

Similar to what this guy is dooing but not the same way.. For us it's first control the head. The danger part about this is if you are going to hard then your thumb is naturally going to slip in your sparring partners eye. What the guy in the video is more like a strike. Fighters will allow you to touch their face all day long. That type of movment isn't picked up as dangerous movement. When using it in sparring you have to keep that thumb really tight and close to palm and don't fick your hand downward. You can also position the hand so that the thumb hooks under the chin. I wouldn't practice on a person that spazs out becuse they will just end up poking their own eyes out even if you don't flick your hand downward.

I use the approach that I describe becuase I may go from controlling the head from under the jaw to clinching the back of the head. When grappling, I don't strike out, I move my hand slowly. It is the same way in the forms.

If I were to use it as a strike then it would be strike with the edge of my hand and after it hits the face with the fingers downward and they will go into the eyes. Finger should be close together and not far appart.

DO NOT Practice the eye poking technique by doing Head control + Wrist flick. Train these methods separately, Head control only, Then "Air punch" the the downward flick. Only put these two things together in a self defense fight and keep in mind that the person may lose their eye, so don't do this type of stuff over something stupid.

There are other eye gouge techniques that I train but I always cut half of the mechanics out so I don't accident blind my sparring partner. For some technique, you'll only need to train the entry. Once you get the entry it's pretty much a done deal.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Back in 1973, the only martial art profession that exist in the US labor department was Judo instructor only. The term Karate or TKD were not even recognized by the US labor department back then.

In 1966 I had my dad take me to a judo school to check it out. We also visited a karate school a couple blocks away where I signed up and began a very rewarding lifelong journey. A year later the judo school was gone, taken over by Joe Lewis (karate).

By 1973, I imagine there were 10X's more karate schools than judo. The government is not known for quick responses. It also took a while for " karate" to have its own listing in the phone book, being listed under the "judo" category.

In the late 60's, Karate, judo, kung fu - back then 99% of the population saw them all the same: "The Ultimate in Self-Defense." TKD/TSD was seen simply as Korean karate, even by many who practiced it. I don't think it was until at least the mid 70's that TKD started to position itself as something unique from karate.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Do you know why "hammer fist" and "overhand" are not scored in Karate tournament? Also, MT roundhouse kick that kick with instep or shin bone is not scored in Karate tournament.

I have seen very few hammer-fists thrown in tournaments, including by me (I'd prefer a knife hand). I think most refs would not score a short-range focused hammer-fist, thinking it lacks power - they like bigger movements. A wide sweeping hammer-fist is strong but may be too slow in competition. Also, such moves may not be allowed due safety concerns, being "wild" with much follow-thru and thus hard to control (but would be allowed in full contact).

I only trained roundhouse kicks hitting with the ball of the foot, using the instep only with newer students as contact would be more distributed and less dangerous for them. Also used kicking to the back or side of the knee to break the opponent's balance. I never used it in competition as catching an elbow on my instep is something I've experienced and greatly wish to avoid. Other styles, such as Kenpo do utilize the instep. I see no reason that an instep roundhouse kick should not score in a tournament.

I don't think from my experience using the shin is customary in karate. Perhaps it was done in olden times, but traditional kata amongst Okinawan styles contain few if any roundhouse kicks at all. From a serious combat view, it does open up the groin area so this may be a factor for it not being encouraged. Even the Okinawan king's personal guard were reluctant to getting kicked in the nuts. I think due to its longer range that it gained popularity in tournaments.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Yes, my 2nd paragraph does mostly relate to point fighting as you referenced TMA karate and TKD (as seen in your quote below). Most amateur competitions in these arts are still point fighting I believe. So that was what I was addressing. Boxing and MMA evolved as sports, so their methodology evolved according to the rule set. Accordingly, boxers do not have to change their art to fit into the rule set of boxing competition

Nah, I wasn't thinking of point fighting at all. That's its own thing really. I was thinking of full-contact formats in which various styles fit. You wouldn't find a nak muay (muay thai fighter) in a point fighting tournie. But you do find karateka in kickboxing and MMA competitions (e.g., Lyoto Machida).

I'm a little unclear about your point about boxing not having to change. I said from the onset that what differentiated boxing from "traditional arts" was the lack of duality you describe. I said that one way of defining a traditional art might be by the existing of two aspects. There's a performance in application and a performance in form. And they're different. So you're drawing the same distinction that I already have.

(Classical) karate did not evolve as a sport and so must be changed to fit into a competition rule set. Thus, regardless of whatever karate style one is, they must adapt to the rule set and so undergo a convergent evolution, their technique, strategy and tactics conforming to same. The less restrictive the rule set is (and this includes full contact) the less conforming needs to be done. This leads to the main point:

My last couple of posts addressed this point you made and support my statement that "sport" karate has become a style of its own. I'm not clear on exactly what point you're making with this post so I'm not sure if I've addressed/responded to your thoughts in an effective manner. Also note, that when I got my black belt, organized BJJ, MMA, muy thai, kickboxing and professional karate were essentially non-existent in the USA and no doubt affect my perspective for better or worse.

My point was that, even in the ways that a given ruleset would allow, traditional arts' performance tend to "standardize" to look like some sort of kickboxing. I know you've listed some barred techniques. But traditional stances and blocks (for example) aren't barred in competition. Yet you don't see those used in sparring in those venues. So it's more than just the ruleset prohibiting certain things. Traditional artists are either making a decision or, for some other reason, not employing those traditional techniques that ARE permitted in a given ruleset.

I don't know how old you are, and that's none of my business really. But I already had my one black belt by the time of the first UFC. Which was also my first exposure to BJJ. I remember the advent of the things you list here myself. American kickboxing was a thing. Muay thai was slowly emerging here in the States, largely thanks to folks like Guro Dan Inosanto and his instructor Surichai Sirisute. Full-contact karate had already arrived, thanks to folks like Jeff Smith, Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Blinky Rodriguez, Benny the Jet, Norris of course, and a slew of other fighters. So that's part of where I'm coming from.