Stop Comparing Styles, Start COmparing Training Methods?

[zDom]

Yes, thats a good drill as it helps with a number of things. I've also had people break down the kick into parts, holding each one. EX: A front kick would be done in this fashion: Chamber, extension, chamber, and replace back on the floor. Anytime I'd teach a new kick, either to kids or adults, I liked to break it down this way, that way I can correct anything wrong, during each part of the kick.

That is an EXCELLENT way to train kicking to new students. In fact, I spent about 15 mintues running two new HKD students through that exact drill on roundhouse and sidekicks Tuesday night. I call it "four count kicking."

Like you said, great for making sure they are doing each part correctly. Also good, when you have them hold each position for 5 or 10 seconds, for building the muscles needed for effective kicking.

I also use/very much like the training method exile described -- holding kick at its extended position for as long as you can, for the same reasons.

Also: same drill, but hold the CHAMBERED position for as long as you can. Also can do partner stretching with chambered position.

Regarding elbows/knees: I practice them, but I really prefer the extremities (feet and hands) over the joints (elbows, knees) as weapons.

I'm sure that is just a personal preference of mine -- I'm not knocking their use, and they definately are useful for closer ranges.

Here is a drill we use for both hand strikes and kicking:

Partner holds a body shield. Person practicing technique does the strike 10 times "for effect" , i.e., as hard as they can, trying to penetrate the target and move the target holder.

Next round, "for speed." Sometimes just 10 strikes as fast as they can, sometimes as many strikes as they can in 30 seconds.

Moving on to another training area, when training for accuracy, it sometimes helps to use TINY targets. While we use "porkchop" handheld targets often, a great drill is to take a small piece of paper or cardboard -- about 3 inches by 1 inch -- and hold it with fingertips for kicker to hit.

Especially fun with spinning heel kicks

"Aim small, miss small."

 

[exile]

Guys---this is turning into a fantastic thread---really informative! Everyone has got some really good thoughts on this crucial question of specific training techniques... excellent move getting it started, Shotgun Buddha!

I am going to print out the thread as it's developed so far and paste stuff from it into a little notebook I've started in order to keep track of training/teaching ideas.

 

[Rook]

I've seen people use a front kick in a pushing movement with some good results. Personally, I'd prefer that over a sidekick. Not that I haven't had luck with a side kick, but then again, all depends on what your goal is at the time.

Mike

I can see the front thrust kick, striking with the heel as a pushing kick too - the Muay Thai guys use this almost exclusively in place of the sidekick. While slower, the sidekick can push upward angled into the opponent and out, which unbalances the opponent more than a front thrust kick (which has to be angled down at least slightly) would. I can see a use for either, and an arguement could easily be made that neither one is really necessary too... this is more an area of personal preferance really.

 

[zDom]

I can see the front thrust kick, striking with the heel as a pushing kick too - the Muay Thai guys use this almost exclusively in place of the sidekick

Front thrust kick with the heel is a great kick (I prefer it as a strike rather than a push) as it allows you to keep that "boxer" type stance while recruiting a lot of the same muscle groups as a side kick.

As my instructor tells it, however, it did indeed get its start as a "push" kick: specifically, to push an impaled opponent off your sword.


To train this kick, I recommend doing doing so with a huge, exaggerated motion: bring knee all the way up till it touches your shoulder (even bounce it off your chest/shoulder!), thrust kick all the way out, pull knee all the way back.

In actual use the motion may become smaller, but it is better (IMO) to train a larger motions: uses more muscles, trains them over a larger range of motion. More difficult/demanding, better training.

In addition to being great way to stomp in at ribs or solar plexus, is also great for stomping into the hip joint, knee, and instep of the foot.

Also useful in stomping on an opponent as a follow-up following a successful throw or takedown in which you have remained on your feet.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

My appologies. I just figured that was what you were referring to for a few reasons, one being that I was under the impression we were talking about training methods of MMA and TMA and two, because 9 times out of 10, when these debates are taking place, the MMA crowd always refers to that high percentage comment. Sorry for the misunderstanding.:asian:

Hehe no worries mate. I kinda fall into a mix of all three camps - MMA, TMA, RBSD, rather than any one in particular. And while my focus is self-defence, im interested in all three areas. My big thing, regardless of of the focus, is "How does it work and how could it work better?"
I just love learning I guess.

That was my reasoning behind the use of gear. Sure its not the same and flesh on flesh, but if we trained like that all the time, we may end up taking more time off to recoop from injuries. Many times, during my lessons, my inst. will pad up which allows me to throw elbows, knees, etc., to him, without the risk of injury, but at the same time, is training me to react off of his attack.

I can see the uses of gear alright, but I'd personally use it as an add on measure, rather than my main one. Practice getting the delivery systems down solid using full contact sparring, so that we have a nice solid base for striking, grappling etc
And then for anything that will do too much damage or there's too much risk for practicing without gear, shove on some sort of protective gear.
There's actually very few things I would consider this neccessary for though, main one being the eyes.
I prefer not to train lethal/crippling techniques too thoroughly, due to the trouble in practicing them.
I do ensure I have a firm understanding of how they work, and have gone over them in practice, but its not something I'd do regularly.
Also figure there's way too much legal mess with them too.

Question: Do you train knife disarms? If so, how do you train them?

I do practice them, but to be honest, I don't think anything really prepares you for a knife attack.
My normal methods of pratice work like this.

1. Standard two man drill where we just practice defending against the knife attacks. Important details -
The attacker will either have the knife hidden, or obscured, ie the knife has been palmed.
The attacker will follow no specific attack pattern.
Attacker will not stop until has been disabled.

2. Normal sparring drills, but one of them has training knife hidden on person unknown to the other, will pull it during the course of sparring.
Same details as the first.

3. At some point during training, random attack on student using training knife. Usually break off immediately after initial contact on this one, because one - you normally get stabbed pretty fast
two - Suprise attacks can get out of hand way too easily

Normally for these we start off with rubber knives that have been marked with chalk or paint etc so that cuts will show, and then we move up to marked wooden tanto's so that its more solid.

As I said, I don't think anything prepares you for knife attacks, happened to me before and they're bloody terrifying. However since they're increasingly likely, its best to at least attempt some sort of decent training for them, just in case.

And that is perfectly fine. Everyone trains differently, and its always good to get feedback from others.
Mike

Hehe not everyone is so reasonable about it, had more than one person say they don't consider me a "true" martial artist.As far as Im concerned so long as someone enjoys what they do, and honest about it, then Ive no right to criticise them.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Here's a question: does anyone on this thread train to get out of the way of an untrained but hard-thrown roundhouse punch---the kind that often follows a grab and that most of the people who for some stupid reason want to hurt you are likely to throw? What I'm picturing is, you stand there square to your partner, who's at fairly close range and who then throws a reasonably hard punch at your head (so you'd be wearing head/face protection) and your goal is just to get outide and positioned to strike from there or move inside to a postion where you can counterstrike while covering yourself from the guy's other arm. Just to develop speed and program yourself on how to move so it becomes reflexive? Anyone do that or some variation of that on a regular basis, either as part of your MA school training program or on your own?

Ah yes, the classic John Wayne'r. Always a fun one to practice against
Normally what I'd do instead of trying to move outside, when they grab I close in and clinch, and toss to the ground.
Straight punches I try to move to the outside, hooked ones I move to the inside. If I move inside on a straight, leaves me vunerable to the other arm, if I move outside on a hook, increases the risks of it hitting me.
Whats your thoughts on this?

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

That's pretty much exactly how we train in class. Our instructor likes to mix it up a fair amount---sometimes a bag, sometimes focus mitts, sometimes kick sequences where you try not to repeat a particular kick for as long as possible (those exercises can get quite exhausting).

Sadistic, I love it
That gives me a good question, what do you guys do for your standard warm-up? And then what for outside fitness training etc?
Our is the Bas Rutten workout in class. Thats basically a half hour long, and involves switching repeatdedly between sets of shadow-boxing, push ups, crunches, squats, neck-rolls, lunges, sprawls, and host of other goodies.
The exercises change roughly every 30-60 seconds, and the point of the workout is it forces you to jump between radically different types of exercise and effort. Its a seriously good workout.

Outside of class, Im doing the standard swimming and running, but Im also do training for Free Running, which I love doing. For fitness for that Ive started doing alot of the stuff from Crossfit.com, which ends up being an odd mix between cardio, resistance, and gymnastic training. It leaves you very well rounded.

One thing I try to do on my own is a sidekick at waist height or higher that I then `freeze' for as long as possible in good form, without relying on a nearby chair or whatever for balance. My record so far is about 11 seconds---not very good! But for the first couple of years I was training I couldn't do it at all. That's both a balance and a leg strength exercise---without question the hardest for me of any of my kick-training exercises. I just cannot believe these guys I see on video, from the Korean demo teams, say, who can do that easily, and for as long as they feel like, apparently.

Stuff like that is very useful for control alright, and control is at the heart of what being a good fighter and martial artist is. I've seen alot of people who over-emphasize this type of exercise too much though, and while they can stop a kick beautifully, they might as just be slapping you when they kick you. So I 'd say it needs to be a good balance between bag work and control exercises.
I think over-emphasis on specific aspects is what has cause most of the problems that exist in martial arts today.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Front thrust kick with the heel is a great kick (I prefer it as a strike rather than a push) as it allows you to keep that "boxer" type stance while recruiting a lot of the same muscle groups as a side kick.

As my instructor tells it, however, it did indeed get its start as a "push" kick: specifically, to push an impaled opponent off your sword.


To train this kick, I recommend doing doing so with a huge, exaggerated motion: bring knee all the way up till it touches your shoulder (even bounce it off your chest/shoulder!), thrust kick all the way out, pull knee all the way back.

In actual use the motion may become smaller, but it is better (IMO) to train a larger motions: uses more muscles, trains them over a larger range of motion. More difficult/demanding, better training.

In addition to being great way to stomp in at ribs or solar plexus, is also great for stomping into the hip joint, knee, and instep of the foot.

Also useful in stomping on an opponent as a follow-up following a successful throw or takedown in which you have remained on your feet.

Exaggerated motions are a good place to start showing how a technique works and get them used to it, but once a person understands the motion, I'd focus on getting the motion as small as possible. In my opinion a strike should waste as little motion/energy as possible, because if the other persons any good they'll take advantage of the excess motion.
Whats your own opinion on this?

I don't particularly like the idea if stomping a downed opponent, simply because its too easy for the strike to do lethal damage.
Normally if Ive managed to drop the opponent to the ground, a follow up won't be neccessary, cause I'll be busy running away

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Good choice of kicks. I prefer low line kicks as well. Not saying that kicking high isn't possible, but there is also more risk the higher you go. Then again, I've seen some nice head kicks in MMA. Setting them up with leg kicks, and then shooting one up for the KO.

Mike

Ive seen em done beautifully too, by Mirkov Crocop especially. But way too much that could go wrong doing a headkick in self-defence for my liking. Factors like crowds, multiple attackers, surface etc could really bugger it up.
So cheers to shin bashing instead :EG:

 

[zDom]

Exaggerated motions are a good place to start showing how a technique works and get them used to it, but once a person understands the motion, I'd focus on getting the motion as small as possible. In my opinion a strike should waste as little motion/energy as possible, because if the other persons any good they'll take advantage of the excess motion.
Whats your own opinion on this?

My opinion is: continue to train large motions, but also train the smaller/faster motions through free-sparring.

Kind of like weight lifting: full range of motion for full development of the muscle group, but in actual use of muscles (lifting an object, pushing something) you may not necessarily USE the full range of motion, but it is there for those times when you might need the full range.

I don't particularly like the idea if stomping a downed opponent, simply because its too easy for the strike to do lethal damage.
Normally if Ive managed to drop the opponent to the ground, a follow up won't be neccessary, cause I'll be busy running away

Personal experience: before I started formal training, I had a martial artist friend show me some basics with escrima sticks.

Several months later, I had a conflict with a group of three men. While I should have just home instead of insisting on talking to my wayward girlfriend, I grabbed my sticks and insisted on speaking with her.

The group's leader grabbed a tire tool and decided they would just as soon put me down as let that conversation happen.

One of the two unarmed men rushed me and I laid a combination of about six strikes across his head and shoulders as I sidestepped his "shoot" and it took him all the way to the ground. I backed off and and watched as they helped him to his feet -- and then they immediately ALL rushed me, pulled me to the ground, threw the sticks as far away as the could, and then held me down for a beating. I lost three teeth and they probably would have killed me if not for a bystander who suggested they probably shouldn't.

Now granted, I made a long list of bad decisions in this particular instance. But in addition to being an object lesson in making wise choices, it also shows: there are times when you have to look out for you OWN well being FIRST. If I would have followed up and made sure he was incapicitated, I would have only had TWO attackers to deal with.

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six"

End note: nowadays I would never EVER get myself into such a situation exactly like that one. In addition to being better trained to defend myself, martial arts has helped me grow as a person and make better decisions about what kind of people I associate with as well as avoiding conflict: some conversations with wayward girlfriends just aren't worth having.

 

[zDom]

Ive seen em done beautifully too, by Mirkov Crocop especially. But way too much that could go wrong doing a headkick in self-defence for my liking. Factors like crowds, multiple attackers, surface etc could really bugger it up.
So cheers to shin bashing instead :EG:

I completely agree that low-line kicks are almost always a better choice than head kicks.

On the other hand, if the moment is just right, one well-timed, well-placed headkick could make the rest of the multiple attackers start watching out for THEIR heads -- which then makes it easier to plant the low-line kicks.

Or, just being in a small town like I am, everybody simply knowing I have this capability gives potential attackers a lot of uncertainty about what to expect from me, something for them to watch out for, making the use of other more practical tools much easier.

 

[exile]

Ah yes, the classic John Wayne'r. Always a fun one to practice against
Normally what I'd do instead of trying to move outside, when they grab I close in and clinch, and toss to the ground.
Straight punches I try to move to the outside, hooked ones I move to the inside. If I move inside on a straight, leaves me vunerable to the other arm, if I move outside on a hook, increases the risks of it hitting me.
Whats your thoughts on this?

I tend to want to move to the outside---always a little edgy about that other arm of theirs. I think that a lot of handling this sort of punch involves watching for the giveaway for a classic untrained curving-in punch---the shoulder, which is rotating toward the target a lot faster than the arm that's attached to it. I haven't done this systematically, but at one point I plan to experiment with my response time against a training partner who I've asked to throw roundhouse punches at me as fast as hard as possible, where what I'm trying to do is develop my response and timing on the basis of how fast his shoulder is torquing in towards me. In any kind of dicey situation, I want my arms out there in the plane of my centerline, and if I can be quick enough, I want to go outside and deflect his hard strike inward, letting me step in with various counters. The classic kata/poomsae `down block', starting with an upward chambering move, is perfect for this, because you can actually break that `chambering' move down into an elbow strike against their punching arm and then a little bit of extra up motion; the `chamber' is followed by a forearm strike down and across to the throat. If you can trap the punching arm and pull it into you (another `chambering' motion), so much the better. But this scenario depends on you being able to get far enough outside them as the strike comes in that your `up-chamber' is able to strike them from the outside in. So I guess what I'm saying is, I have set of responses that I'm trying to develop---applications of the supposedly defensive hyung/kata moves which are I think best interpreted as strikes, ideally in conjunction with locks---which will work just in case I can get outside quickly enough. And that means I need to develop the right reactions based on the giveaway movement of the shoulder (this is actually an idea of Mark MacYoung's).

But I can also see going inside, because it doesn't require you to cover quite so much ground at the beginning. As you say, you have the problem of vulnerability to a followup strike from their other side. But it's also true that if you can turn inside the punch, they're wide open, even briefly. Ideally, you should be able to inflict enough damage from that position to end the attack before they can get the other arm into play---elbow strike to the face (counterclockwise, if you use the right arm), with your other arm raised in a `chambering' position, elbow out and forearm parallel to the ground, palm side of hand up, to block any move from their other side. Follow up the elbow strike with a knife-hand strike---using the hand of the elbow-striking arm--to the neck (clockwise)... nothing fancy, but fairly discouraging to your assailant.

I've experimented with training partners doing both. Ultimately I'd like to get to the point where I can do either reflexively depending on small cues that tell me which is more likely to work. I know what you're saying about the straight punch, but I don't usually train for it as a SD thing, since it's overwhelmingly MAists who use straight punches and I tend to assume that a MAist won't be the guy who attacks you... of course, there is all that disturbing stuff on the `redemption' thread, so maybe I should rethink that last bit!

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I tend to want to move to the outside---always a little edgy about that other arm of theirs. I think that a lot of handling this sort of punch involves watching for the giveaway for a classic untrained curving-in punch---the shoulder, which is rotating toward the target a lot faster than the arm that's attached to it. I haven't done this systematically, but at one point I plan to experiment with my response time against a training partner who I've asked to throw roundhouse punches at me as fast as hard as possible, where what I'm trying to do is develop my response and timing on the basis of how fast his shoulder is torquing in towards me. In any kind of dicey situation, I want my arms out there in the plane of my centerline, and if I can be quick enough, I want to go outside and deflect his hard strike inward, letting me step in with various counters. The classic kata/poomsae `down block', starting with an upward chambering move, is perfect for this, because you can actually break that `chambering' move down into an elbow strike against their punching arm and then a little bit of extra up motion; the `chamber' is followed by a forearm strike down and across to the throat. If you can trap the punching arm and pull it into you (another `chambering' motion), so much the better. But this scenario depends on you being able to get far enough outside them as the strike comes in that your `up-chamber' is able to strike them from the outside in. So I guess what I'm saying is, I have set of responses that I'm trying to develop---applications of the supposedly defensive hyung/kata moves which are I think best interpreted as strikes, ideally in conjunction with locks---which will work just in case I can get outside quickly enough. And that means I need to develop the right reactions based on the giveaway movement of the shoulder (this is actually an idea of Mark MacYoung's).

But I can also see going inside, because it doesn't require you to cover quite so much ground at the beginning. As you say, you have the problem of vulnerability to a followup strike from their other side. But it's also true that if you can turn inside the punch, they're wide open, even briefly. Ideally, you should be able to inflict enough damage from that position to end the attack before they can get the other arm into play---elbow strike to the face (counterclockwise, if you use the right arm), with your other arm raised in a `chambering' position, elbow out and forearm parallel to the ground, palm side of hand up, to block any move from their other side. Follow up the elbow strike with a knife-hand strike---using the hand of the elbow-striking arm--to the neck (clockwise)... nothing fancy, but fairly discouraging to your assailant.

I've experimented with training partners doing both. Ultimately I'd like to get to the point where I can do either reflexively depending on small cues that tell me which is more likely to work. I know what you're saying about the straight punch, but I don't usually train for it as a SD thing, since it's overwhelmingly MAists who use straight punches and I tend to assume that a MAist won't be the guy who attacks you... of course, there is all that disturbing stuff on the `redemption' thread, so maybe I should rethink that last bit!

The straight punch is more of a likelyhood than most people realize. The sort of person who's likely to attack you is probably going to have had a fair bit of practice at it, and those looping haymakers are one of the first things to go.
With regards someone throwing that type of hooking punch, they're most likely going to sucker punch you. Usually that places you too close to them to move to the outside properly, I personally would close and grab, negating the punch, and elbow their face happily.
From what Ive researched on they type of reaction your trying to create, your better off creating a more generalised "flinch repsonse" than any type of specific movement reaction. The body can only remember so many reactions under pressure, if you try to build too many reactions into it, then it will either freeze up or slow your reaction speed dramatically.
Its referred to as Hicks Law, the more reactions your body has to choose from, the longer it will take to pick which one to use.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

My opinion is: continue to train large motions, but also train the smaller/faster motions through free-sparring.

Kind of like weight lifting: full range of motion for full development of the muscle group, but in actual use of muscles (lifting an object, pushing something) you may not necessarily USE the full range of motion, but it is there for those times when you might need the full range.

That makes sense, its using the smaller motions in sparring that will cement them as your reaction anyway, so the larger motions for training would be beneficial

Personal experience: before I started formal training, I had a martial artist friend show me some basics with escrima sticks.

Several months later, I had a conflict with a group of three men. While I should have just home instead of insisting on talking to my wayward girlfriend, I grabbed my sticks and insisted on speaking with her.

The group's leader grabbed a tire tool and decided they would just as soon put me down as let that conversation happen.

One of the two unarmed men rushed me and I laid a combination of about six strikes across his head and shoulders as I sidestepped his "shoot" and it took him all the way to the ground. I backed off and and watched as they helped him to his feet -- and then they immediately ALL rushed me, pulled me to the ground, threw the sticks as far away as the could, and then held me down for a beating. I lost three teeth and they probably would have killed me if not for a bystander who suggested they probably shouldn't.

Now granted, I made a long list of bad decisions in this particular instance. But in addition to being an object lesson in making wise choices, it also shows: there are times when you have to look out for you OWN well being FIRST. If I would have followed up and made sure he was incapicitated, I would have only had TWO attackers to deal with.

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six"

End note: nowadays I would never EVER get myself into such a situation exactly like that one. In addition to being better trained to defend myself, martial arts has helped me grow as a person and make better decisions about what kind of people I associate with as well as avoiding conflict: some conversations with wayward girlfriends just aren't worth having.

Iif I ever wind up in a situation where I feel my life is under serious threat, I will do what I have to survive. Especially running. Im very good at that, and stuff like Free Running can be a very useful skill sometime. But if thats not possible, I'll do what I have to.
However sitations where Im under that much threat are less than likely, because I prefer to avoid trouble, and when trouble happens its usually easy enough to handle, unless I do something stupid to escalate the situation.

 

[exile]

they immediately ALL rushed me, pulled me to the ground, threw the sticks as far away as the could, and then held me down for a beating. I lost three teeth and they probably would have killed me if not for a bystander who suggested they probably shouldn't.

Ouch. That was a close one, amigo. Three vs. one is bad and a tire iron is in general really bad (unless you're the one holding it); the two together are way worse than really bad. What's strange is that they paid any attention to what the bystander you mentioned was telling them---people in that situation aren't usually amenable to the argument that, look, do you want to spend the rest of your life in max security?

Now granted, I made a long list of bad decisions in this particular instance. But in addition to being an object lesson in making wise choices, it also shows: there are times when you have to look out for you OWN well being FIRST. If I would have followed up and made sure he was incapicitated, I would have only had TWO attackers to deal with.

You're right---there are times when the guy on the ground needs to stay there for a bit, and one of those times is when he has pals with who has the same mindset he has.

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six"

If it's one guy against multiple attackers, the consensus among lawyers who've written stuff I've seen on martial arts case law is that you have much greater lattitude to use incapacitating force than if it's one on one---for exactly the reason you've given.

End note: nowadays I would never EVER get myself into such a situation exactly like that one. In addition to being better trained to defend myself, martial arts has helped me grow as a person and make better decisions about what kind of people I associate with as well as avoiding conflict: some conversations with wayward girlfriends just aren't worth having.

That's one great thing about MAs: if your head is screwed on right to start with, they can help you develop a perspective that will keep you out of trouble that other guys, with serious insecurities and toxic aggressiveness, get into---often way over their heads. A lot of us have probably done unbelievably reckless, impulsive things before we got things worked out. I guess we're among the lucky ones; the unlucky ones wouldn't be walking around much these day.

I've got a bunch of stuff I gotta get done but will come back later this evening and try to pick up on some of the earlier great posts you guys are sending out today...

 

[exile]

With regards someone throwing that type of hooking punch, they're most likely going to sucker punch you. Usually that places you too close to them to move to the outside properly

It's true: once the distance has been closed in a major way, you're kind of stuck inside, aren't you. I think that the outside move is probably viable when they're going after you before they've moved into the close-quarters fighting range, but after that, yes, you'd probably better make up your mind you're stuck inside.

I personally would close and grab, negating the punch, and elbow their face happily.

That's the great thing about them punching first---if you can simply step in with the punch going past you and rotate your torso to bring your crooked elbow in front of their body, you have a whole bunch of stuff you can do up close which they can't do anything about because they're committed to the punch. Any martial art that's lasted this long is going to provide resources for you to use to exploit this situation.

I've had punches thrown at me on a couple of occasions in the fairly distant past, but none of them were straight punches. On the other hand, my assailants weren't seasoned streetfighters either. So you could be right about straight punches being more common than we would expect given the usual story we MA types like to tell each other about the universality of the untrained-drunk-jerk-in-the-bar-roundhouse and how that's what we have to prepare for when we're training self-defense.

From what Ive researched on they type of reaction your trying to create, your better off creating a more generalised "flinch repsonse" than any type of specific movement reaction. The body can only remember so many reactions under pressure, if you try to build too many reactions into it, then it will either freeze up or slow your reaction speed dramatically.
Its referred to as Hicks Law, the more reactions your body has to choose from, the longer it will take to pick which one to use.

Yeah, I've seen references to Hick's Law---increase in choices is related to increase in reaction time in some nonlinear fashion---logorithmic? Or something dramatic like that. It's the basic idea of the old Greek epigram that the fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing, and usually does better at staying alive in a tight situation. It makes perfect sense. But will it not be a different story if you train to condition one type of move at one range, say, and a different one at a closer range at another---will you still be running into the Hicks Law problem?

I've been coming across a lot of references lately to this idea that you should work with the instinctive flinch response. Simon O'Neil has written a bit about this in his work on bunkai for TKD poomsae, and Kane and Wilder talk a lot about it in their stuff on bunkai interpretation. There seems to be a consensus that you do need a really stripped-down toolkit for typical nasty street encounters. K&W make the interesting observation that this fact is consistent with the well-known specialization of many early elite karateka to practice only one or two kata over many years---Funikoshi is supposed to have studied, and trained, Naihanchi almost exclusively for nine years. He knew that particular kata inside and out and also knew the `hard' bukai for it and trained these over a decade till the fighting responses became conditioned reflexes. If we want our MAs to be practical, I guess we have to do the same. It's just another sign of how far the MAs have come from their practical combat origins that people are required to know in excess of ten forms to pass their first dan tests...

 

[zDom]

It's just another sign of how far the MAs have come from their practical combat origins that people are required to know in excess of ten forms to pass their first dan tests...

On the other hand, there is a lot of duplication of techniques throughout those forms. For example, basic punch is used several times in just about all the forms.

And if you limit your responses too much, you are too easily countered.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

On the other hand, there is a lot of duplication of techniques throughout those forms. For example, basic punch is used several times in just about all the forms.

And if you limit your responses too much, you are too easily countered.

That only counts in a sparring/duelling scenario.
Average self-defence situation lasts between 10-30 seconds, and is usually constant attack by one party, normally the one who wins.
Thats hardly much time to assess someone beyond the fact that either they're hitting you or you're hitting them.

 

[MJS]

Hehe no worries mate. I kinda fall into a mix of all three camps - MMA, TMA, RBSD, rather than any one in particular. And while my focus is self-defence, im interested in all three areas. My big thing, regardless of of the focus, is "How does it work and how could it work better?"
I just love learning I guess.

Looks like we have a few things in common.

I can see the uses of gear alright, but I'd personally use it as an add on measure, rather than my main one. Practice getting the delivery systems down solid using full contact sparring, so that we have a nice solid base for striking, grappling etc
And then for anything that will do too much damage or there's too much risk for practicing without gear, shove on some sort of protective gear.
There's actually very few things I would consider this neccessary for though, main one being the eyes.
I prefer not to train lethal/crippling techniques too thoroughly, due to the trouble in practicing them.
I do ensure I have a firm understanding of how they work, and have gone over them in practice, but its not something I'd do regularly.
Also figure there's way too much legal mess with them too.

I think its good to have a balance of techniques, as every situation is going to be different. As for the gear, I think its good to train with and without. I train techniques without it, but for that extra contact, we do put it on.

I do practice them, but to be honest, I don't think anything really prepares you for a knife attack.
My normal methods of pratice work like this.

1. Standard two man drill where we just practice defending against the knife attacks. Important details -
The attacker will either have the knife hidden, or obscured, ie the knife has been palmed.
The attacker will follow no specific attack pattern.
Attacker will not stop until has been disabled.

2. Normal sparring drills, but one of them has training knife hidden on person unknown to the other, will pull it during the course of sparring.
Same details as the first.

3. At some point during training, random attack on student using training knife. Usually break off immediately after initial contact on this one, because one - you normally get stabbed pretty fast
two - Suprise attacks can get out of hand way too easily

Normally for these we start off with rubber knives that have been marked with chalk or paint etc so that cuts will show, and then we move up to marked wooden tanto's so that its more solid.

As I said, I don't think anything prepares you for knife attacks, happened to me before and they're bloody terrifying. However since they're increasingly likely, its best to at least attempt some sort of decent training for them, just in case.

Blade work certainly isn't easy, but I do feel that there have been some pretty good defenses discussed on here in other threads. I personally like to use something on the edge, as it'll give a more realistic feel, as we can see when we make a mistake.

Hehe not everyone is so reasonable about it, had more than one person say they don't consider me a "true" martial artist.As far as Im concerned so long as someone enjoys what they do, and honest about it, then Ive no right to criticise them.

Thanks for a great discussion! There has been alot of great info in this thread.

Mike