Stop Comparing Styles, Start COmparing Training Methods?

[Rook]

And thats really what I want to get down to. Discussing different training methods, so we can compare uses, see what works and what doesn't, and instead gear our training towards being effective rather than following style.

I think, in alot of ways, that is what many people want. Some people are interested in a tradition for the sake of the tradition, which is great as long as they don't confuse that with being the most effective simply because its what the tradition says. The rest of us are all looking for what works best.

I think the major division between TMA and MMA is not in our training methods or our arts so much as our outlook on what constitutes working and not working. As you probably well know, MMA only came about in the form we know it today from an attempt to test styles head to head on neutral ground until the best one emerged... and we got a hybrid of four arts, boxing, wrestling, BJJ and muay thai (or equivalent material from other sources) that has served well.

 

[zDom]

..and we got a hybrid of four arts, boxing, wrestling, BJJ and muay thai (or equivalent material from other sources) that has served well.

But what about all those people who are practicing MMA and those four styles and those methods of training and are LOSING matches?

That, by your standards of proof, proves they are NOT effective.

As of today, there are more people in the UFC who have lost using those very same techniques than all TMAs combined.

It's a double edged sword and it cuts both ways: video tape of losses is as much proof as video tape of victories.

 

[exile]

Yes, marketing plays a big part IMO. If someone is offering the latest and greatest thing that came out, the business will most likely increase and depending on the age of the people in the class, the training is often geared towards them.

More and more I find this something to worry about. Shotgun Buddha's point about differences in how you train and what you are aiming at in your training is very important, but the market economy of MA instruction in North America, at least, may mean that even if you want to train a certain way---for realistic combat applications---you could have a very hard time getting to do so. There may very not be a school anywhere near you whose owner is willing to teach that approach. (If this question isn't too off-thread---have you any advice about what one should do in that case, short of moving to a different town or city? I'm lucky not to have this problem personally, but probably a fair number of people do).

 

[zDom]

So lets get on topic and SHARE training methods, give it a try

Where do we start? Hand strikes? Kicking? Grappling?

 

[Rook]

But what about all those people who are practicing MMA and those four styles and those methods of training and are LOSING matches?

That, by your standards of proof, proves they are NOT effective.

As of today, there are more people in the UFC who have lost using those very same techniques than all TMAs combined.

It's a double edged sword and it cuts both ways: video tape of losses is as much proof as video tape of victories.

Yes, but lost to who? To people doing TMA techniques? Or to people using the same MMA techniques and doing them even better?

This is going to very quickly go south like the other threads if we keep this up, so I'm going to cut my response short and leave it at that.

 

[exile]

So lets get on topic and SHARE training methods, give it a try

Where do we start? Hand strikes? Kicking? Grappling?

Well, what about hand strikes? I think that's a reasonable place to start...there's a whole family of related martial arts---karate in its Okinawan/Japanese/Korean versions, kempo/kendo (if you consider this separate from karate), and all of the vast variety of Chinese fighting systems---where the lion's share of combat applications take the form of hand strikes. So how do people involved in this thread train hand strikes---punches and open hand techniques? How do you use them to set up finishing moves? Do you punch for power or speed?... and I think most to the point, how do they fit into the overall strategy of your particular (substyle of your) martial art?

 

[exile]

PS: I'm not saying that I think the others are unimportant at all! I really want to know how people train---and why they train that way, in terms of strategic use of the techniques involved---at all fighting ranges. I'm really interested in understanding e.g. how Aikido and Hapkido practitioners view throws, what the role(s) of throws might be in their setup, and how they teach students throws in accord with those roles... hand strikes are just somewhere to start...

 

[still learning]

Hello, Another way to look at it? ....If the style is so effective....How come everyone is not equal in class (the black belts-same ranks,from the same school)....?

So it is not the style...but the person who makes it his own...a the MA becomes a part of him.

Like in boxing....no two boxers fight the same...even from the same training school. It is the person who makes it works!

It's your training that will make you...train harder than anyone else...you will become better than anyone else. ........sign: Anyone (first name)............Aloha

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

But what about all those people who are practicing MMA and those four styles and those methods of training and are LOSING matches?

That, by your standards of proof, proves they are NOT effective.

As of today, there are more people in the UFC who have lost using those very same techniques than all TMAs combined.

It's a double edged sword and it cuts both ways: video tape of losses is as much proof as video tape of victories.

Sorry, but thats not particularly a logical arguement. All that proves is that the individual is also a factor as well as the style.
A factor which everyone was already aware of.
However before any one tries to wander down the old "Its the individual not the style" route, I said its a factor, that doesn't mean the style is negated.
The style is like your amour and weapony, but their is still an individual using them. Both are factors which effect the fight.
So in video evidence of MMA competitors fighting, both are fighting with quality weapons, and the one more skilled at using them wins.

Whereas in the recored evidence of TMA vs MMA, the fighters using MMA as their weapon had something of a winning streak over the ones using TMA.

I have no particular interest in a which is better though, as I said before, Im interersted in discussing trining methods and details.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Well, what about hand strikes? I think that's a reasonable place to start...there's a whole family of related martial arts---karate in its Okinawan/Japanese/Korean versions, kempo/kendo (if you consider this separate from karate), and all of the vast variety of Chinese fighting systems---where the lion's share of combat applications take the form of hand strikes. So how do people involved in this thread train hand strikes---punches and open hand techniques? How do you use them to set up finishing moves? Do you punch for power or speed?... and I think most to the point, how do they fit into the overall strategy of your particular (substyle of your) martial art?

Hand strikes eh?
Okay here goes. To my mind striking has one of two purposes.
1. Disable the opponent (Primary objective)
2. Re-position the Opponent (Secondary Objective)

Disabling the opponent works on the basis of either shocking the Central Nervous System, or disabling a bodily function. Pain is not a reliable factor for disabling an opponent, so instead our focus should be on what sort of reaction does it cause?
Re-positioning the opponent is the secondary objective, moving them into to position to clinch and throw.
Even when re-positioning the opponent, disabling them takes precedence, so a strike to reposition should always be done in the manner of a strike to disable.
Don't have time to waste on ineffective strikes in a fight.

With regards what types of strikes to use, for self-defence I'd stick with open handed strikes for face, closed handed for the body.
And training them, start off getting the technique right, just doing the strikes slowly in the air, till you're comfortable with it, speed it up a little, just get used to the motion.
Then start doing pad-work, and bag drills, get used to hitting a solid target.
Then light striking drills with a partner practing this technique.
And then full contact free-form sparring where you try to ustilise these techniques.

I don't really like using strikes such as eye gouges, due to the inability to practice them full contact safely.

 

[MJS]

I think the major division between TMA and MMA is not in our training methods or our arts so much as our outlook on what constitutes working and not working. As you probably well know, MMA only came about in the form we know it today from an attempt to test styles head to head on neutral ground until the best one emerged... and we got a hybrid of four arts, boxing, wrestling, BJJ and muay thai (or equivalent material from other sources) that has served well.

Working and not working in what context? Someone could say that a poke to the eyes would work, but others will say, "Well, if it doesn't work in the ring, it doesn't work period." and that IMHO, is where 99.9% of these out of control arguments lead to. I certainly don't want this thread to go south either, but my point is, in fact that I could very well poke someone in the eye outside of the ring and have good results.

Keep in mind that we're not talking one style vs another, but instead, how a MMAist and a TMAist would train punches, such as the jab, cross, hook and uppercut, as well as the various kicks.

Mike

 

[MJS]

More and more I find this something to worry about. Shotgun Buddha's point about differences in how you train and what you are aiming at in your training is very important, but the market economy of MA instruction in North America, at least, may mean that even if you want to train a certain way---for realistic combat applications---you could have a very hard time getting to do so. There may very not be a school anywhere near you whose owner is willing to teach that approach. (If this question isn't too off-thread---have you any advice about what one should do in that case, short of moving to a different town or city? I'm lucky not to have this problem personally, but probably a fair number of people do).

Yes, you're correct. I taught for quite a long time, various age groups. I've had more than my share of people cringe at the thought of an eye jab or too much contact. Unfortunately, these are the folks that want their cake and also to be able to eat it. Sorry, ya can't have both. How can someone train for a real SD situation, without that contact? This is what they fail to see. But, the school owners, not wanting to lose business, gear the training to what the public wants and alot seem to want something to do on the side, as they're really not that concerned with SD.

If someone was seeking that hardcore training, but it wasn't something done at that school, nothing says that one couldn't train on their own, with others that were looking for the same thing. I'm not saying create your own art, but getting together outside of the dojo, gearing up and picking up the contact. People do it all the time.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Well, what about hand strikes? I think that's a reasonable place to start...there's a whole family of related martial arts---karate in its Okinawan/Japanese/Korean versions, kempo/kendo (if you consider this separate from karate), and all of the vast variety of Chinese fighting systems---where the lion's share of combat applications take the form of hand strikes. So how do people involved in this thread train hand strikes---punches and open hand techniques? How do you use them to set up finishing moves? Do you punch for power or speed?... and I think most to the point, how do they fit into the overall strategy of your particular (substyle of your) martial art?

I try to have an equal balance of both. Standing stationary, working on the fine points of proper punching is a good thing, as this'll help with better technique, but I also work the heavy bag as well as focus pads, so I can get the feel for moving, hitting targets in various positions, etc. There are some days when I'll punch slower, working that good form, and other days when I'll pick up the pace. I've taken many ideas from MMA and worked them into my Kenpo training and I've found that they blend very well.

Mike

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Working and not working in what context? Someone could say that a poke to the eyes would work, but others will say, "Well, if it doesn't work in the ring, it doesn't work period." and that IMHO, is where 99.9% of these out of control arguments lead to. I certainly don't want this thread to go south either, but my point is, in fact that I could very well poke someone in the eye outside of the ring and have good results.

Keep in mind that we're not talking one style vs another, but instead, how a MMAist and a TMAist would train punches, such as the jab, cross, hook and uppercut, as well as the various kicks.

Mike

Hehe in my case my dislike for eye pokes is not to do with whether they can be used in the ring or not, its with training for them. Since you can't actually spar full contact with them, I don't feel comfortable relying on them.
I don't want to rely on a technique Ive never actually "used" if that makes sense to you?

 

[MJS]

Hehe in my case my dislike for eye pokes is not to do with whether they can be used in the ring or not, its with training for them. Since you can't actually spar full contact with them, I don't feel comfortable relying on them.
I don't want to rely on a technique Ive never actually "used" if that makes sense to you?

Putting on eye protection should allow for some training for those shots. While some tend to look down on the padded attacker suits on the market, my Kenpo instructor puts one on during my lesson with him, which allows me to work a leg kick, groin kick, and hits to the head.

If we stop and think about it, control has to be exercised with everything we do. When working an armlock, regardless of how fast the match is going, I still need to use control, otherwise, my training partners will start to decrease due to injury.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

If someone was seeking that hardcore training, but it wasn't something done at that school, nothing says that one couldn't train on their own, with others that were looking for the same thing. I'm not saying create your own art, but getting together outside of the dojo, gearing up and picking up the contact. People do it all the time.

Mike

True that. The RBSD movement in Ireland isn't particularly to my liking, I don't like the way they train, so any stuff like that I have to research on my own or practice with a few like-minded friends.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Putting on eye protection should allow for some training for those shots. While some tend to look down on the padded attacker suits on the market, my Kenpo instructor puts one on during my lesson with him, which allows me to work a leg kick, groin kick, and hits to the head.

If we stop and think about it, control has to be exercised with everything we do. When working an armlock, regardless of how fast the match is going, I still need to use control, otherwise, my training partners will start to decrease due to injury.

Control is important true, but sparring full contact doesn't mean we're not utilising control.
Im weary of the padding not because I don't see it as useful, but because I don't like wearing it myself. If Im wearing body armour I might start making too much use of it, taking shots that the armor can handle, but if I was unprotected would damage me.
Its the same reason I don't wear a cup, I don't want to get too used to having a protected groin. I figure if I get hit there, its my own damn fault for not protecting it better.

On the other hand, I can see the potential use of equipment like goggles for practicing using the attack, but then we have the issue of of how the opponent reacts. If the eye gouge is being used as a diversionary strike, then thats grand because they'll have the same flinch reaction as they would for anything coming at their eyes.
However if its practiced as a disabling strike the goggles nullify that since it won't disable them, and thus makes it unreliable to practice.

 

[MJS]

Control is important true, but sparring full contact doesn't mean we're not utilising control.
Im weary of the padding not because I don't see it as useful, but because I don't like wearing it myself. If Im wearing body armour I might start making too much use of it, taking shots that the armor can handle, but if I was unprotected would damage me.
Its the same reason I don't wear a cup, I don't want to get too used to having a protected groin. I figure if I get hit there, its my own damn fault for not protecting it better.

On the other hand, I can see the potential use of equipment like goggles for practicing using the attack, but then we have the issue of of how the opponent reacts. If the eye gouge is being used as a diversionary strike, then thats grand because they'll have the same flinch reaction as they would for anything coming at their eyes.
However if its practiced as a disabling strike the goggles nullify that since it won't disable them, and thus makes it unreliable to practice.

Everyone is going to have their own opinions on the use of this equipment. The use of equipment in some cases, is going to be necessary in order to prevent serious injury. Let me ask you this. It seems that your concern is that equipment is not going to give a realistic feeling or take something away. However, when LEO's are training police dogs, a bite sleeve is used during that training, yet I don't see too many people questioning the effectiveness of the dogs bite. If the sleeve was not used, the trainers arm would be pretty messed up by the end of the session. See what I'm saying.

Back to the eye jabs. Speaking for myself, I'm not a big believer in the 1 shot, 1 kill way of thinking. Is it possible to get a KO with one hit? Sure is, but I'm not going to assume that I'll always be able to do it. In the case of the eye jab, I'm not assuming that it'll end the fight, but at the minimum, if it buys me time to escape or follow up with other shots, it served its purpose IMHO.

 

[exile]

Yes, you're correct. I taught for quite a long time, various age groups. I've had more than my share of people cringe at the thought of an eye jab or too much contact. Unfortunately, these are the folks that want their cake and also to be able to eat it. Sorry, ya can't have both. How can someone train for a real SD situation, without that contact? This is what they fail to see. But, the school owners, not wanting to lose business, gear the training to what the public wants and alot seem to want something to do on the side, as they're really not that concerned with SD.

Mike---yeah, this resonates a lot with me. One thing I've noticed is that the more you try to get the student close to actual use that MAs were created for, the more squeamish people get. A lot of people's view of MAs is based on the kind of almost `sanitized' view of them that comes across in MA movies. The very highly choreographed routines you see across the whole spectrum of films, from campy B-grade chopsockey movies to the almost ethereal beauty of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, present hand-to-hand fighting as this intricate dance of swift chain punches and perfectly coordinated blocks---no one loses an eye, no one gets a broken clavical or a ruptured larynx or loses teeth. But if you try to teach effective techniques, the down side is that the effect of these moves is very, very ugly. I sometimes think people have this strange unconscious belief that
what the MAs teach is how to defend yourself without any actual violence---maybe that's overstating it, but something like that seems to be at work. And then when they realize what the technique you're asking them to attempt is actually for, it's kind of horrifying for them.

If someone was seeking that hardcore training, but it wasn't something done at that school, nothing says that one couldn't train on their own, with others that were looking for the same thing. I'm not saying create your own art, but getting together outside of the dojo, gearing up and picking up the contact. People do it all the time.
Mike

I agree---the fact is, there really aren't too many other choices. It's like learning any other discipline---at one point, when you've got a grasp of the basics, you have to take responsibility for your own further education. Your instructors can't show you everything, and if you want to explore particular specialization, you have to go out on your own. There are an increasing number of resources for people interested in this approach to the MAs. The trick is finding a few other people who want to do the same thing---you really do need training partners!

 

[MJS]

Mike---yeah, this resonates a lot with me. One thing I've noticed is that the more you try to get the student close to actual use that MAs were created for, the more squeamish people get. A lot of people's view of MAs is based on the kind of almost `sanitized' view of them that comes across in MA movies. The very highly choreographed routines you see across the whole spectrum of films, from campy B-grade chopsockey movies to the almost ethereal beauty of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, present hand-to-hand fighting as this intricate dance of swift chain punches and perfectly coordinated blocks---no one loses an eye, no one gets a broken clavical or a ruptured larynx or loses teeth. But if you try to teach effective techniques, the down side is that the effect of these moves is very, very ugly. I sometimes think people have this strange unconscious belief that
what the MAs teach is how to defend yourself without any actual violence---maybe that's overstating it, but something like that seems to be at work. And then when they realize what the technique you're asking them to attempt is actually for, it's kind of horrifying for them.

Agreed. Its certainly important to always attempt to defuse the situation verbally, but as we all know, it doesnt always work out that way. I do think that many movies do give that distorted version.

I agree---the fact is, there really aren't too many other choices. It's like learning any other discipline---at one point, when you've got a grasp of the basics, you have to take responsibility for your own further education. Your instructors can't show you everything, and if you want to explore particular specialization, you have to go out on your own. There are an increasing number of resources for people interested in this approach to the MAs. The trick is finding a few other people who want to do the same thing---you really do need training partners!

I've had some of my best training sessions outside of the dojo. I've been lucky to train with others who are also interested in getting together for those types of sessions. I hear what you're saying though...some are happy with what they get and choose to leave it at that.

Mike