Stop Comparing Styles, Start COmparing Training Methods?

[MJS]

So....lets talk about some of the other training methods that are used. Lets move onto some kicks. What are some of the various ways you train as well as the differences that are used between MMA and TMA.

Mike

 

[exile]

Control is important true, but sparring full contact doesn't mean we're not utilising control.
Im weary of the padding not because I don't see it as useful, but because I don't like wearing it myself. If Im wearing body armour I might start making too much use of it, taking shots that the armor can handle, but if I was unprotected would damage me.
Its the same reason I don't wear a cup, I don't want to get too used to having a protected groin. I figure if I get hit there, its my own damn fault for not protecting it better.

This reminds me of what Churchill is reputed to have said once: `Play for more than you can afford to lose and you will learn the game'.

On the other hand, I can see the potential use of equipment like goggles for practicing using the attack, but then we have the issue of of how the opponent reacts. If the eye gouge is being used as a diversionary strike, then thats grand because they'll have the same flinch reaction as they would for anything coming at their eyes.
However if its practiced as a disabling strike the goggles nullify that since it won't disable them, and thus makes it unreliable to practice.

There's a couple of other aspects to the protection thing---not exactly on the hand-strike line of the argument, but they seem. important: one, if you're going to be training locks, throws and forcing moves for setting up strikes, there's really not much protection you can put on---body padding isn't going to change leverage facts! And two, if you're wearing gloves---even the relatively thin gloves that the kickboxers use, with very thin padding---you're going to have a lot more trouble repositioning your striking hand for the grip that you want to set up the next strike---like, after your down `block' hits your opponent's upper arm and you want to then grip the arm where you've struck it to position him for a punch with the other fist---the use of muchimi that's part of realistic kata applications.

There must be a way to divide the labor in training so that you can cover all the bases, but I haven't been doing this long enough to have a good sense of what that division is---only a few years. You guys are way ahead of me there...

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Everyone is going to have their own opinions on the use of this equipment. The use of equipment in some cases, is going to be necessary in order to prevent serious injury. Let me ask you this. It seems that your concern is that equipment is not going to give a realistic feeling or take something away. However, when LEO's are training police dogs, a bite sleeve is used during that training, yet I don't see too many people questioning the effectiveness of the dogs bite. If the sleeve was not used, the trainers arm would be pretty messed up by the end of the session. See what I'm saying.

Back to the eye jabs. Speaking for myself, I'm not a big believer in the 1 shot, 1 kill way of thinking. Is it possible to get a KO with one hit? Sure is, but I'm not going to assume that I'll always be able to do it. In the case of the eye jab, I'm not assuming that it'll end the fight, but at the minimum, if it buys me time to escape or follow up with other shots, it served its purpose IMHO.

The dogs bite has a very obvious effect, and one which it has alot of natural practice with.
Whereas the techniques that we are trying to practice are ones that DON'T come naturally to us, so there's alot more reason to question there effectiveness.
Make sense or have I begun cheerfully rambling?

 

[exile]

So....lets talk about some of the other training methods that are used. Lets move onto some kicks. What are some of the various ways you train as well as the differences that are used between MMA and TMA.

Mike

So for kicks... I have three approaches: train for balance (kick the air), train for power (kick a bag, preferably a heavy hangin bag), train for accuracy (a partner with focus pads). I think that training for balance comes first, because if you can't stay upright, all the power in the world isn't going to help, and you're not going to be too accurate either!

The good thing about training for balance is, you can do it in a six square foot area in the middle of your basement, without a training partner. I have a severe problem with balance asymmetry---my balance on my right leg to deliver left rear leg side kicks is much worse than my balance on my left leg delivering right leg side kicks (weird, because I'm very right-handed, go figure)---so I try to work extra hard on those side kicks at a range of heights. I try to do a fair number of very high kicks when training for balance, not because I want to use high kicks in a fight situation (touch wood it doesn't come to that) but because, as everyone always says, if you can deliver a very high side kick in good balance you're going to be unbeatable delivering a mid-to-low side kick in an actual fight. I throw around 140 rear leg side kicks on each leg per day, along with an equal number of snap roundhouse kicks (my balance is more symmetrical with these, for some reason) and 150 slide side kicks per each leg.

I try to do bag kicking at least once or twice a week---have to go to our rec center for that---and do the same numbers on the bag that I do for balance at home. I try to keep the roundhouse kicks about waist high---I'm reasonably flexible for my age, but not superstretchable, and anyway, with a roundhouse you really lose power when your strike isn't coing in exactly perpendicular to your target surface. You get much less balance training with a bag, of course, but you can't really train power with air kicks, so...

Accuracy is something I can only train for in class, when our instructor decides that that's something we're going to focus on. It's a good way to play balance and power off against each other---you want to strike as hard as you can without being off balance enough to lose the accuracy you need to hit the target.

I also like to train combinations of kicks---rear leg side kick-->slide side kick of the same leg-->back kick off the other leg-->slide side kick off the leg used in the back kick--.start the cycle again. I think these kinds of drills help with fluidity and being able to move from technique to technique automatically, which you are going to need in any kind of combat situation.

I'd like to do more kick-based breaking, but it's harder to do without having someone always at hand who's willing to hold for you---and oddly enough, there aren't that many people who are happy with the idea around my house...

 

[MJS]

The dogs bite has a very obvious effect, and one which it has alot of natural practice with.
Whereas the techniques that we are trying to practice are ones that DON'T come naturally to us, so there's alot more reason to question there effectiveness.
Make sense or have I begun cheerfully rambling?

So if something is not 'natural' thats why we train it, over and over, so it becomes natural and we react without having to think. You're disputing the use of gear or certain types of shots because of the useage in the ring. I've always been a bit confused by that line of thought. Because it doesnt work in 'the ring' its useless? Last time I checked, eye shots were not allowed in the ring.

Have you ever had anything in your eye, such as an eyelash or piece of sand? I have and the results were pretty obvious to me.

If using gear or training certain things is something you do not do, thats fine, but I don't think its good to say that something is ineffective just because you don't do it, or if you're having problems making it work.

Mike

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

So if something is not 'natural' thats why we train it, over and over, so it becomes natural and we react without having to think. You're disputing the use of gear or certain types of shots because of the useage in the ring. I've always been a bit confused by that line of thought. Because it doesnt work in 'the ring' its useless? Last time I checked, eye shots were not allowed in the ring.

Have you ever had anything in your eye, such as an eyelash or piece of sand? I have and the results were pretty obvious to me.

If using gear or training certain things is something you do not do, thats fine, but I don't think its good to say that something is ineffective just because you don't do it, or if you're having problems making it work.

Mike

When exactly did I mention anything about the ring?
I dislike using techniques that I cannot practice full contact because then I don't know if I can rely on them or not.
And that particular mindset is firmly rooted in self defence, on the basis I've no intention of trusting my life to a technique that Ive never personally tested as it were. And to my mind it needs to be full contact to test it.
Im not saying the attack doesn't work, just that I personally wouldn't rely on it.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

So for kicks... I have three approaches: train for balance (kick the air), train for power (kick a bag, preferably a heavy hangin bag), train for accuracy (a partner with focus pads). I think that training for balance comes first, because if you can't stay upright, all the power in the world isn't going to help, and you're not going to be too accurate either!

I'd agree with that approach for practicing the technique alright, and then for applying it, full contact sparring.
Kick wise I don't actually utilise too many, I consider them slightly too high risk for the most part.
Kick's I'd use -
Shin kick, ramming my shin into theirs
Front Thrust kick if absolutely neccessary (don't like it though)
Thai style round house to outer thigh
Foot stomp
Maybe a side kick

Apart from that I prefer to use knees instead. Lots of pretty pretty knees.

 

[exile]

I'd agree with that approach for practicing the technique alright, and then for applying it, full contact sparring.
Kick wise I don't actually utilise too many, I consider them slightly too high risk for the most part.
Kick's I'd use -
Shin kick, ramming my shin into theirs
Front Thrust kick if absolutely neccessary (don't like it though)
Thai style round house to outer thigh
Foot stomp
Maybe a side kick

Apart from that I prefer to use knees instead. Lots of pretty pretty knees.

I see the side kick as kind of the weapon of choice to use in a disabling strike on side of the attackers knee---it's an instantly disabling, probably crippling strike if done hard and accurately.

And yes, re knees---I like 'em too for striking---and interestingly, my instructor has us doing knee strikes as part of self-defense drills (and elbow strikes too---all the good stuff!), even though there's this legend, based on WTF tournament rules, that TKD doesn't use knees as weapons.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I see the side kick as kind of the weapon of choice to use in a disabling strike on side of the attackers knee---it's an instantly disabling, probably crippling strike if done hard and accurately.

And yes, re knees---I like 'em too for striking---and interestingly, my instructor has us doing knee strikes as part of self-defense drills (and elbow strikes too---all the good stuff!), even though there's this legend, based on WTF tournament rules, that TKD doesn't use knees as weapons.

Side of the knee is good. Im not particularly too interested in the crippling part, but I like the way it does fold the knee.
Knees and elbows are the best striking tools there is for self-defence. Fun too.

 

[Rook]

So for kicks... I have three approaches: train for balance (kick the air), train for power (kick a bag, preferably a heavy hangin bag), train for accuracy (a partner with focus pads). I think that training for balance comes first, because if you can't stay upright, all the power in the world isn't going to help, and you're not going to be too accurate either!

The good thing about training for balance is, you can do it in a six square foot area in the middle of your basement, without a training partner. I have a severe problem with balance asymmetry---my balance on my right leg to deliver left rear leg side kicks is much worse than my balance on my left leg delivering right leg side kicks (weird, because I'm very right-handed, go figure)---so I try to work extra hard on those side kicks at a range of heights. I try to do a fair number of very high kicks when training for balance, not because I want to use high kicks in a fight situation (touch wood it doesn't come to that) but because, as everyone always says, if you can deliver a very high side kick in good balance you're going to be unbeatable delivering a mid-to-low side kick in an actual fight. I throw around 140 rear leg side kicks on each leg per day, along with an equal number of snap roundhouse kicks (my balance is more symmetrical with these, for some reason) and 150 slide side kicks per each leg.

I try to do bag kicking at least once or twice a week---have to go to our rec center for that---and do the same numbers on the bag that I do for balance at home. I try to keep the roundhouse kicks about waist high---I'm reasonably flexible for my age, but not superstretchable, and anyway, with a roundhouse you really lose power when your strike isn't coing in exactly perpendicular to your target surface. You get much less balance training with a bag, of course, but you can't really train power with air kicks, so...

Accuracy is something I can only train for in class, when our instructor decides that that's something we're going to focus on. It's a good way to play balance and power off against each other---you want to strike as hard as you can without being off balance enough to lose the accuracy you need to hit the target.

I also like to train combinations of kicks---rear leg side kick-->slide side kick of the same leg-->back kick off the other leg-->slide side kick off the leg used in the back kick--.start the cycle again. I think these kinds of drills help with fluidity and being able to move from technique to technique automatically, which you are going to need in any kind of combat situation.

I'd like to do more kick-based breaking, but it's harder to do without having someone always at hand who's willing to hold for you---and oddly enough, there aren't that many people who are happy with the idea around my house...

Excellent post. As soon as I can give you rep again, I will. It certainly sounds like you train your kicks alot. I agree completely with the air, heavy bag and focus pads, although I spend most of my kicking time on the focus pads and probably not as much as I should with the heavy bag. I worry about doing too much air kicks though, as the tendancy to overextend stuff is pretty high and it isn't fun when it happens.

 

[Rook]

Side of the knee is good. Im not particularly too interested in the crippling part, but I like the way it does fold the knee.
Knees and elbows are the best striking tools there is for self-defence. Fun too.

I've thought of a sidekick as a kick to create space rather than to damage stuff - to the midsection it can push someone away, and to the knee it can force someone to step back to regain footing. It isn;t used much between skilled fighters because for most people, the amount of time it takes to carry out the kick is better spent doing something that causes more damage.

 

[MJS]

When exactly did I mention anything about the ring?

My appologies. I just figured that was what you were referring to for a few reasons, one being that I was under the impression we were talking about training methods of MMA and TMA and two, because 9 times out of 10, when these debates are taking place, the MMA crowd always refers to that high percentage comment. Sorry for the misunderstanding.:asian:

I dislike using techniques that I cannot practice full contact because then I don't know if I can rely on them or not.

That was my reasoning behind the use of gear. Sure its not the same and flesh on flesh, but if we trained like that all the time, we may end up taking more time off to recoop from injuries. Many times, during my lessons, my inst. will pad up which allows me to throw elbows, knees, etc., to him, without the risk of injury, but at the same time, is training me to react off of his attack.

And that particular mindset is firmly rooted in self defence, on the basis I've no intention of trusting my life to a technique that Ive never personally tested as it were. And to my mind it needs to be full contact to test it.

Question: Do you train knife disarms? If so, how do you train them?

Im not saying the attack doesn't work, just that I personally wouldn't rely on it.

And that is perfectly fine. Everyone trains differently, and its always good to get feedback from others.

Mike

 

[MJS]

So for kicks... I have three approaches: train for balance (kick the air), train for power (kick a bag, preferably a heavy hangin bag), train for accuracy (a partner with focus pads). I think that training for balance comes first, because if you can't stay upright, all the power in the world isn't going to help, and you're not going to be too accurate either!

The is pretty much my thought as well.

The good thing about training for balance is, you can do it in a six square foot area in the middle of your basement, without a training partner. I have a severe problem with balance asymmetry---my balance on my right leg to deliver left rear leg side kicks is much worse than my balance on my left leg delivering right leg side kicks (weird, because I'm very right-handed, go figure)---so I try to work extra hard on those side kicks at a range of heights. I try to do a fair number of very high kicks when training for balance, not because I want to use high kicks in a fight situation (touch wood it doesn't come to that) but because, as everyone always says, if you can deliver a very high side kick in good balance you're going to be unbeatable delivering a mid-to-low side kick in an actual fight. I throw around 140 rear leg side kicks on each leg per day, along with an equal number of snap roundhouse kicks (my balance is more symmetrical with these, for some reason) and 150 slide side kicks per each leg.

I try to do bag kicking at least once or twice a week---have to go to our rec center for that---and do the same numbers on the bag that I do for balance at home. I try to keep the roundhouse kicks about waist high---I'm reasonably flexible for my age, but not superstretchable, and anyway, with a roundhouse you really lose power when your strike isn't coing in exactly perpendicular to your target surface. You get much less balance training with a bag, of course, but you can't really train power with air kicks, so...

Accuracy is something I can only train for in class, when our instructor decides that that's something we're going to focus on. It's a good way to play balance and power off against each other---you want to strike as hard as you can without being off balance enough to lose the accuracy you need to hit the target.

I also like to train combinations of kicks---rear leg side kick-->slide side kick of the same leg-->back kick off the other leg-->slide side kick off the leg used in the back kick--.start the cycle again. I think these kinds of drills help with fluidity and being able to move from technique to technique automatically, which you are going to need in any kind of combat situation.

I'd like to do more kick-based breaking, but it's harder to do without having someone always at hand who's willing to hold for you---and oddly enough, there aren't that many people who are happy with the idea around my house...

We usually mix it up during class. There are times when the focus is more on the accuracy, so the kicks will be done on a partner, not so much hitting them, but using them as a target. We'll also use a heavy bag, Thai pads and smaller focus pads, depending on what the focus of the class happens to be.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I'd agree with that approach for practicing the technique alright, and then for applying it, full contact sparring.
Kick wise I don't actually utilise too many, I consider them slightly too high risk for the most part.
Kick's I'd use -
Shin kick, ramming my shin into theirs
Front Thrust kick if absolutely neccessary (don't like it though)
Thai style round house to outer thigh
Foot stomp
Maybe a side kick

Apart from that I prefer to use knees instead. Lots of pretty pretty knees.

Good choice of kicks. I prefer low line kicks as well. Not saying that kicking high isn't possible, but there is also more risk the higher you go. Then again, I've seen some nice head kicks in MMA. Setting them up with leg kicks, and then shooting one up for the KO.

Mike

 

[zDom]

I worry about doing too much air kicks though, as the tendancy to overextend stuff is pretty high and it isn't fun when it happens.

Sounds like a comment from an inexperienced kicker to me.

I've been kicking in the air (along with on focus pads, heavy bags, body shields and moving people) for 15 years and have never, ever "overextended" a kick.

Not only that, those who know how to truly train kicks also train something called "control" which is the ability to STOP a kick exactly where and when you want to.

How is this useful? Go watch those clips of Muay Thai fighters breaking their leg at the ankle on the shin of their opponent so their foot flops around at the end of their leg like a rubber chicken.

People lift their shin to block my roundhouse kicks all the time. I stop kick, rechamber, and hit them in the head.

You constantly remind TMAist of how they don't know anything about grappling because they haven't spent enough time doing it.

It is obvious you have not spent enough time kicking to really understand kicking.

Sidekick not used by skilled fighters? You are mistaken again.

Here is something to think about: why do you think WTF taekwondo competitors wear chest protectors while Muay Thai competitors do not?

Answer: because they MUST. Not wearing chest protector when fighting a good kicker means the kicker uses control or ribs and internal organs get damaged.

I've seen half-assed back kicks and side kicks end UFC/Pride fight matches: surely you've seen those clips too?

 

[exile]

Excellent post. As soon as I can give you rep again, I will.

Hey Rook---thanks much!

It certainly sounds like you train your kicks alot.

I do, but only because they're much less natural for me (and, according to the usual wisdom, everyone else in the world) than hand techniques. I actually like doing hand techniques more but the legs are such a powerful weapon for a finishing strike, and also for a surprise distracting move (where the hell did that roundhouse come from???) that I figure it pays to keep them sharp---I suspect that they get stale on you, if you neglect them, a lot quicker than hand techniques do. I really count on hand techniques, though, to keep me alive in a bad situation, and I try to train grab-lock-throw-strike type moves as much as I can.

I agree completely with the air, heavy bag and focus pads, although I spend most of my kicking time on the focus pads and probably not as much as I should with the heavy bag. I worry about doing too much air kicks though, as the tendancy to overextend stuff is pretty high and it isn't fun when it happens.

I know, I've done it (when I first started training TKD and didn't realize what can happen if you hyperextend). These days, I make sure that there's still a bit of angle in my leg when I throw a kick, no matter what type it is. I try to stop about 80% of the way, and only go to full extension against a bag.

Here's a question: does anyone on this thread train to get out of the way of an untrained but hard-thrown roundhouse punch---the kind that often follows a grab and that most of the people who for some stupid reason want to hurt you are likely to throw? What I'm picturing is, you stand there square to your partner, who's at fairly close range and who then throws a reasonably hard punch at your head (so you'd be wearing head/face protection) and your goal is just to get outide and positioned to strike from there or move inside to a postion where you can counterstrike while covering yourself from the guy's other arm. Just to develop speed and program yourself on how to move so it becomes reflexive? Anyone do that or some variation of that on a regular basis, either as part of your MA school training program or on your own?

 

[exile]

We usually mix it up during class. There are times when the focus is more on the accuracy, so the kicks will be done on a partner, not so much hitting them, but using them as a target. We'll also use a heavy bag, Thai pads and smaller focus pads, depending on what the focus of the class happens to be.
Mike

That's pretty much exactly how we train in class. Our instructor likes to mix it up a fair amount---sometimes a bag, sometimes focus mitts, sometimes kick sequences where you try not to repeat a particular kick for as long as possible (those exercises can get quite exhausting).

One thing I try to do on my own is a sidekick at waist height or higher that I then `freeze' for as long as possible in good form, without relying on a nearby chair or whatever for balance. My record so far is about 11 seconds---not very good! But for the first couple of years I was training I couldn't do it at all. That's both a balance and a leg strength exercise---without question the hardest for me of any of my kick-training exercises. I just cannot believe these guys I see on video, from the Korean demo teams, say, who can do that easily, and for as long as they feel like, apparently.

 

[MJS]

I've thought of a sidekick as a kick to create space rather than to damage stuff - to the midsection it can push someone away, and to the knee it can force someone to step back to regain footing. It isn;t used much between skilled fighters because for most people, the amount of time it takes to carry out the kick is better spent doing something that causes more damage.

I've seen people use a front kick in a pushing movement with some good results. Personally, I'd prefer that over a sidekick. Not that I haven't had luck with a side kick, but then again, all depends on what your goal is at the time.



Mike

 

[exile]

Side of the knee is good. Im not particularly too interested in the crippling part,

Understand, I'm not intending to cripple anyone either---I have my vindictive moments but not to that extent. But the kick---hard side kick out and down to the side of the knee joint---is an inherently very damaging strike. It's very likely that if delivered at full power it will damage ligament and possibly dislocate the knee cap, and ligaments typically don't heal very well even after surgical reattachment.

but I like the way it does fold the knee

---with a vengeance!

Knees and elbows are the best striking tools there is for self-defence. Fun too.

The thing I like about elbows is that, like a closed fist, they give you a very hard striking surface, but unlike a fist, you are very unlikely to break or seriously bruise your elbow in a strike against another hard surface. And because the shoulder is so mobile a joint, you can get tremendous torque in the strike from several angles... at least, people who know what they're doing can...I still feel they're a somewhat neglected part of my own skill set.

 

[MJS]

Here's a question: does anyone on this thread train to get out of the way of an untrained but hard-thrown roundhouse punch---the kind that often follows a grab and that most of the people who for some stupid reason want to hurt you are likely to throw? What I'm picturing is, you stand there square to your partner, who's at fairly close range and who then throws a reasonably hard punch at your head (so you'd be wearing head/face protection) and your goal is just to get outide and positioned to strike from there or move inside to a postion where you can counterstrike while covering yourself from the guy's other arm. Just to develop speed and program yourself on how to move so it becomes reflexive? Anyone do that or some variation of that on a regular basis, either as part of your MA school training program or on your own?

All the time! Once the technique is understood, I expect my 'attacker' to give me a committed attack. That one of my pet peeves in the dojo, when people punch, and they stop is so far from me, that in reality, I don't even have to move because they never would've reached me in the first place. The same with a 2 hand choke. I love a good shoulder massage, but during class time, I'm looking for that choke, not the massage!

One thing I try to do on my own is a sidekick at waist height or higher that I then `freeze' for as long as possible in good form, without relying on a nearby chair or whatever for balance. My record so far is about 11 seconds---not very good! But for the first couple of years I was training I couldn't do it at all. That's both a balance and a leg strength exercise---without question the hardest for me of any of my kick-training exercises. I just cannot believe these guys I see on video, from the Korean demo teams, say, who can do that easily, and for as long as they feel like, apparently.

Yes, thats a good drill as it helps with a number of things. I've also had people break down the kick into parts, holding each one. EX: A front kick would be done in this fashion: Chamber, extension, chamber, and replace back on the floor. Anytime I'd teach a new kick, either to kids or adults, I liked to break it down this way, that way I can correct anything wrong, during each part of the kick.

Mike