Still Confused

[Galen]

The more I read about starting a dojang, joining an organization, or acquiring rank, the more confused I seem to get.

I'm a 1st dan in TKD. I trained for about 4.5 years to get my black belt, and soon after became rather disillusioned. I moved out of the state my school was in and haven't found a new one. Mainly because there aren't many near me. A friend of mine asked if I'd train him and some of his friends, as they were interested in leaning a martial art. I was flattered and started researching what was involved, and then the confusion began.

If I were to start a school, I know that I don't have to be associated with an organization, but if I'm not, I'm afraid I'd be doing my students a disservice if they go to another school and aren't recognized for the rank they have achieved. However, the more I read about orgs, the less they appeal to me. I need some clearification on this matter.

I talked to the vice president of a local ITF school and he said he'd be happy to prep me for my 2nd. The school I originally trained at was ITF, but they weren't too involed in it(or so it seemed). We didn't wear ITF patches on our doboks, we didn't pay fees, etc. Apart from going through the ITF or similar org, could I gain a legitimate rank? It seems a racket if this is the case.

I may have more question to follow, but these are the main topics I'd like to delve into. Thanks to anyone able to help.

 

[terryl965]

You have to have a open mind and deep pockets to really join some of these orgs., there are ways of getting promoted by other individuals without all the high fee's and still remain true to the Art of TKD.

 

[Kacey]

I talked to the vice president of a local ITF school and he said he'd be happy to prep me for my 2nd. The school I originally trained at was ITF, but they weren't too involed in it(or so it seemed). We didn't wear ITF patches on our doboks, we didn't pay fees, etc. Apart from going through the ITF or similar org, could I gain a legitimate rank? It seems a racket if this is the case.

Galen, I started in the ITF; I have 3 lifetime memberships, because the first 2 were "lost". I know other people who have 6 or 7 for the same reason. I have certificates for I and II Dan signed (okay, stamped) with Gen. Choi's name; my III Dan certificate was signed (stamped) by Master Choi, Jung Hwa, who was one of the 4 VIII Dan practitioners on the testing board when I tested. However, that doens't really matter - what matters is that my sahbum felt I was ready to test, and my sahbum signed them. There are plenty of people who know him, regardless of his affiliation (we left the USTF in 1998), and have been in and out of the ITF since then. There are individuals in our association who are still members of the ITF. But in the long run, it is the reputation of the instructor - not the organization - that truly matters. Legitimacy lies in who your instructor is, and that instructor's reputation - not in the organization your instructor does, or does not, belong to.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Galen, I started in the ITF; I have 3 lifetime memberships, because the first 2 were "lost". I know other people who have 6 or 7 for the same reason...

Kacey,

I've heard some kooky things about MA organizations, but this is the topper. I've never been affiliated, so I had no idea it was this bad.

:erg:

 

[Galen]

Galen, I started in the ITF; I have 3 lifetime memberships, because the first 2 were "lost". I know other people who have 6 or 7 for the same reason. I have certificates for I and II Dan signed (okay, stamped) with Gen. Choi's name; my III Dan certificate was signed (stamped) by Master Choi, Jung Hwa, who was one of the 4 VIII Dan practitioners on the testing board when I tested. However, that doens't really matter - what matters is that my sahbum felt I was ready to test, and my sahbum signed them. There are plenty of people who know him, regardless of his affiliation (we left the USTF in 1998), and have been in and out of the ITF since then. There are individuals in our association who are still members of the ITF. But in the long run, it is the reputation of the instructor - not the organization - that truly matters. Legitimacy lies in who your instructor is, and that instructor's reputation - not in the organization your instructor does, or does not, belong to.

Wow, that's just crazy. It really sounds like a money pit. Hopefully I can go it alone and people/parents/etc. just recognise my skill without it. I know how numbers(belt ranks) and titles, like being an (insert org) member, can affect people. My main concern is for the serious martial artist. The last thing I want to start is a McDojo.

 

[IcemanSK]

Your concern about not wanting to run a McDojo is appreciated by all here. That fact that you're worried that might do it unintentionally, means that you won't. If you were trying to screw people out of money & just willing to hand them rank when the check cleared, then I'd be worried.

Your concern that your students have credentials recognized beyond your say so is shared by many a good TKD instructor. Since your background is ITF-style, I'd reccommend looking into the Yom Chi TKD organization. I'm a WTF/Kukkiwon connected school, but I know the folks there to have Yom Chi (Korean for intergrity) & teach solid TKD. Our own Kacey is a member with them.

I wish you the best in your desire to run a school.

 

[Galen]

Your concern about not wanting to run a McDojo is appreciated by all here. That fact that you're worried that might do it unintentionally, means that you won't. If you were trying to screw people out of money & just willing to hand them rank when the check cleared, then I'd be worried.

Your concern that your students have credentials recognized beyond your say so is shared by many a good TKD instructor. Since your background is ITF-style, I'd reccommend looking into the Yom Chi TKD organization. I'm a WTF/Kukkiwon connected school, but I know the folks there to have Yom Chi (Korean for intergrity) & teach solid TKD. Our own Kacey is a member with them.

I wish you the best in your desire to run a school.

I checked out their website and it sounds fairly decent. Sort of what the other orgs should be about. That might be something I'll look into for the future. Thanks, Iceman.

 

[mcleod13]

I don't want to hijack but I have a question that is tied with this.

What rank must one be to open a TKD school? I am curious because there is a 1st at our school who is really good with kids and really tries to teach them how to protect themselves. He is also good with everyone else. His main focus isn't the olympics or granting rank. He makes you SWEAT and earn everything. Tonight, He and I were discussing organizations and the like, and he told me that he didn't care about belonging to organization because the name on the certificate isn't going to protect your A** in a fight.

There is also a 3rd who is not very personable and not good with any of the students. He appears to be just interested in pay. He is always concerned with sparring and never wants to teach self defense moves. Luckily, I don't have him very often.

It seems that the 1st would be better at running a school than the 3rd.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I don't want to hijack but I have a question that is tied with this.

What rank must one be to open a TKD school? I am curious because there is a 1st at our school who is really good with kids and really tries to teach them how to protect themselves. He is also good with everyone else. His main focus isn't the olympics or granting rank. He makes you SWEAT and earn everything. Tonight, He and I were discussing organizations and the like, and he told me that he didn't care about belonging to organization because the name on the certificate isn't going to protect your A** in a fight.

There is also a 3rd who is not very personable and not good with any of the students. He appears to be just interested in pay. He is always concerned with sparring and never wants to teach self defense moves. Luckily, I don't have him very often.

It seems that the 1st would be better at running a school than the 3rd.

I don't really know if there's a technical answer...I do know that certain orgs only allow people to teach after a designated dan, but in general, I don't think there's a set rank.

I think it's great that someone who is a 1st dan would be considered worthy of teaching by other students. The concern that I would have is that the person wouldn't be able to rank the students up.

At 1st dan, there is still much to be learned...and really, the journey is just beginning. Even if the person has been at 1st dan for several years, they still don't have the knowledge to teach beyond their 1st dan...and to be able to rank someone to 1st dan, the person should at least be a dan higher. And, to earn 2nd dan, it takes someone who is fully dedicated to attending regular classes...after 4th dan, I would say, students can get away with not attending regular classes to learn more. 3rd dan if they really understand the cirriculum.

So, in my humble opinion, I would say no less than 3rd dan...someone could get away with a 2nd dan and instruct, but it would take some serious devolopment on their part to be able to attend regular classes on top of teaching a full class of their own.

That being said, I wouldn't see anything wrong with taking a few students under their wing, teaching part time. That would be good experience, actually...but not to have them open their own dojang.

 

[dancingalone]

You can be any rank. Just sew a few more stripes onto your belt!

Seriously, without any official licensing process in the US, anyone can open a school. Hopefully, they'll have sufficient technical knowledge as well as good teaching skills. But there's no guarantee. I have seen some very successful schools run by someone I thought lacked quite a bit technically but he catered very well to his target audience. <shrugs> It is what it is.

 

[level7]

Don't they test you anyway for your belt when you move to a different school?

I would think if the students you taught could prove their skills in sparring or some other measureable test, your assigned ranking would hold at the other school?

As a newbie in TKD, the more I am exposed the more I see how messed up the TKD organization as a whole is. There are so many factions. Its sometimes very frustrating. I should be able to pick up a "official" book and that book should have all the forms, moves taught at every TKD school the same way. Different black belts show me different ways to do the same thing. ARGHHHH. I wonder if JeetKun Do is the same.

 

[hkfuie]

As a newbie in TKD, the more I am exposed the more I see how messed up the TKD organization as a whole is. There are so many factions. Its sometimes very frustrating. I should be able to pick up a "official" book and that book should have all the forms, moves taught at every TKD school the same way. Different black belts show me different ways to do the same thing. ARGHHHH. I wonder if JeetKun Do is the same.

I think every martial art is the same. I know it can be frustrating. It's OK that there are differences. I remember how frustrating that was for me, but now, when someone shows me a different way, I know enough to look for the value in the variation. It will get easier.

I am glad there's more than one TKD. There's something out there for everyone.

 

[Blindside]

I wonder if JeetKun Do is the same.

Arguments over correct curricullulum and lineage in JKD? Never. Every martial art has them, its just a function of being a product of humans.

 

[hkfuie]

The more I read about starting a dojang, joining an organization, or acquiring rank, the more confused I seem to get.

I'm a 1st dan in TKD. I trained for about 4.5 years to get my black belt, and soon after became rather disillusioned. I moved out of the state my school was in and haven't found a new one. Mainly because there aren't many near me. A friend of mine asked if I'd train him and some of his friends, as they were interested in leaning a martial art. I was flattered and started researching what was involved, and then the confusion began.

If I were to start a school, I know that I don't have to be associated with an organization, but if I'm not, I'm afraid I'd be doing my students a disservice if they go to another school and aren't recognized for the rank they have achieved. However, the more I read about orgs, the less they appeal to me. I need some clearification on this matter.

Galen, my instructor was 2nd Dan when I started training with him. He knew more than I did and that is all I needed at that time. But what I value about him is that he was dedicated to training and he was a very demanding instructor. I have had to wait for him to gain rank a couple of times before he can test me. Or I could go test with his instructor. But so far I just wait for him. He does not just instruct the material, he drills it and makes me use it in a dynamic way. He is never satisfied with casual effort. I would not choose a higher ranked instructor.

As far as ranks being accepted in another school, that depends on the school they move to. Never, ever have I been asked to show a certificate when changing schools.

 

[level7]

Arguments over correct curricullulum and lineage in JKD? Never. Every martial art has them, its just a function of being a product of humans.

Wow, even an art as young as JKD? If Bruce were alive today, I wonder if he'd be pissed .

 

[JadeDragon3]

. But in the long run, it is the reputation of the instructor - not the organization - that truly matters. Legitimacy lies in who your instructor is, and that instructor's reputation - not in the organization your instructor does, or does not, belong to.

This is so true. You don't have to be affiliated with any organization to be legit. If your instrucor/teacher/sensei/sifu is well known in the martial art community and other teachers know he's for real then all is good. You don't need these organizations. His reputation is enough. These organizations are just money making rackets and is what causes certain arts to get the term "McDojo" applied to them.

 

[Twin Fist]

I am org free and loving it

mind you, i would join the RIGHT org, but i am doing just fine without sending anyone my money

 

[SA_BJJ]

Twin do you affiliate yourself with the AOK at all?

 

[Twin Fist]

The AOK is a group of tourny promoters, that exists to regulate and promote sport karate tournaments

It is not an org for teachers.

i sometimes help judge AOK tourny's when I am at one, I know a lot of the instructors that take students to AOK tourny's but no i am not affiliated with the AOK in any way since i do not host any tournaments.

 

[Kacey]

I checked out their website and it sounds fairly decent. Sort of what the other orgs should be about. That might be something I'll look into for the future. Thanks, Iceman.

If you have any questions, please let me know - in addition to being a member, I'm currently the president of the association.

As far as the original discussion - my sahbum was a II Dan when he started teaching, and had only been teaching the class I joined for a couple of months when I started; the previous instructor had been transferred out of state and left the class to his then-senior student. He's been teaching ever since; he's now a VII Dan.

I started teaching an affiliated kids' class (same YMCA, tested together, etc.) when I was an I Dan; eventually, while I was still an I Dan, it became a separate, independent class in a different facility, although I have always been associated with the same instructor.

Unless your organization and/or instructor has specific mandates about at what rank you can become an instructor, rank is not the relevant determining factor - it's having the ability, determination, and commitment to teach; once you start a class, you have to be committed to your students: you have to show up when you're tired, when you're sick, when you just aren't in the mood, because your students are counting on you. It sounds easy, that you have to show up for class twice a week - but there are weeks it's a lot harder than others. You have to consider that before you can decide if you really want to be an instructor.