Stationary leading rollback

[Kung Fu Wang]

I saw a match from a full contact tournament in Taiwan, it’s a long time ago I saw that vid but I remember one of the combatant holding the characteristic Bagua pose trying circle walk his opponent, attacks and defense were no better than that shown in the 1954 Macau gongfu masters fight.

This video?

 

[windwalker099]

I can agree that Ralston might not hav found the essence of the arts in his learning Chinese martial arts, it seem he didn’t hang on to long to get to any depth in the TCM, had to take a “short cut” training in some regular boxing gym to get it, something like that

wow,,short cut

ok
Guess you'er not going to do any research to his background or anything..
Maybe a little before your time as well as some others..

 

[windwalker099]

This video?

Do they ?
At what level ?

A problem with looking at videos of those claiming to represent a particular style or method.

"He Jinbao now teaches Yin Style Baguazhang at
my kungfu brother's MMA academy in Beijing alongside Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu
and Muay Thai Top team coaches."

 

[Same Trick]

This video?

“i remember back when I still had YouTube at hands”

It could be, but as I say, I can’t see YouTube

 

[Same Trick]

Your guess?

Might try reading what happened to those in the match.

Not here to defend his work, or history.
He was well-known in the 1970s, found his work interesting—aligning with my own thoughts and experiences.

About his 1978 world championship win, the bio on him that I linked to in this thread just mention a Korean opponent that got so scared watching Ralston doing warmups he decided to not fight in the tournament.



The bio mentions Ralston studied a lot of martial arts… , but only explains somewhat in depth how he learned horse riding and reading zen books. Following the timeline of his studies with martial arts teachers he seems to have stayed with them for just some 1-2 years, however the bio mentions Ralston discovered things by himself around in his later teenage that made him sort of a martial.arts genius .

Some snippet-

At the judo/jujutsu school he was a 4kyu student he coached senior students for their Dan gradings.

Without any previous experience in striking methods and just after one year of karate practice he beat all the Dan grades in the karate dojo.

 

[Same Trick]

This central state is not geometrically defined—it is not the central axis, the center of gravity, the
dantian, or any other specific point. Rather, it is a state of internal equilibrium—a balance of
internal energy (nei jin)."

This I would say is what in sports is called being in the zone.
However in TCM especially the internal such the practice is specifically geared to harness it, example - correctly practice of XYQ basic santi posture is to harness it

 

[Holmejr]

How does the shang shou version of this differs from the FMA version of this. One FMA philosophy is, “better to go to the hospital and not the morgue”. It typically presupposes that a weapon could or will be used at any given point in a confrontation.

I realize that the video just shows a single second of a confrontational flow.

It’s amazing how rolling back can be effective. Have you ever dodged an insect buzzing toward your face? In tennis, there have been multiple times when the ball was coming at my head and a slight rolling back saved me. My playing partners would say “wow! Nice move”

 

[windwalker099]

How does the shang shou version of this differs from the FMA version of this. One FMA philosophy is, “better to go to the hospital and not the morgue”. It typically presupposes that a weapon could or will be used at any given point in a confrontation.

With out being very familiar, with FMA.
The underling theory on which its based on is different.
What is being controlled directly, seems to be different that what has been mentioned
indirectly in sports or in other MA...

Would be interested if you feel they are the same...

"Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"
By Tang Fengchi

When in the state of Shang Shou, there is no internal resistance between oneself and the
opponent. You do not engage in forceful struggle, and the opponent cannot exert their strength
effectively. "

"8. Real and Virtual Contact Points
Real points refer to physical contact where the internal energy connects with the opponent’s
energy. However, the two forces remain distinct, like “well water does not mix with river
water. ”

Virtual points, on the other hand, may or may not involve physical contact, but the
connection is established through intent and awareness, allowing the practitioner to control the
opponent’s center of energy (zhong)."


Different teacher's talk about it in different ways..

重心 Zhòngxīn center of gravity.

Master Wang Peisheng : The resultant force is zero

Ben Lo mentioned

"So I need to reverse my approach. I need to take my own power down to 0. Then there’s no chasing or spiraling. Nothing can change. If he has 100, I have 0. If he has 150, I have 0. If he has 200, I still have 0, on and on, whatever he has, I’m always beneath it, it doesn’t change or affect me. I’m not chasing his attributes, or competing, or catching up, or exceeding him. That’s Taijiquan.”

Interesting concept... hard to get....

"Shang Shou" represents a state of mastery where the practitioner is no longer bound by rigid forms or techniques.
Instead, they embody the principles of Taiji, allowing them to interact seamlessly with any situation, whether in combat, self-cultivation, or daily life.

​

​

 

[Holmejr]

With out being very familiar, with FMA.
The underling theory on which its based on is different.
What is being controlled directly, seems to be different that what has been mentioned
indirectly in sports or in other MA...

Would be interested if you feel they are the same...

"Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"
By Tang Fengchi

When in the state of Shang Shou, there is no internal resistance between oneself and the
opponent. You do not engage in forceful struggle, and the opponent cannot exert their strength
effectively. "

"8. Real and Virtual Contact Points
Real points refer to physical contact where the internal energy connects with the opponent’s
energy. However, the two forces remain distinct, like “well water does not mix with river
water. ”

Virtual points, on the other hand, may or may not involve physical contact, but the
connection is established through intent and awareness, allowing the practitioner to control the
opponent’s center of energy (zhong)."


Different teacher's talk about it in different ways..

重心 Zhòngxīn center of gravity.

Master Wang Peisheng : The resultant force is zero

Ben Lo mentioned

"So I need to reverse my approach. I need to take my own power down to 0. Then there’s no chasing or spiraling. Nothing can change. If he has 100, I have 0. If he has 150, I have 0. If he has 200, I still have 0, on and on, whatever he has, I’m always beneath it, it doesn’t change or affect me. I’m not chasing his attributes, or competing, or catching up, or exceeding him. That’s Taijiquan.”

Interesting concept... hard to get....

"Shang Shou" represents a state of mastery where the practitioner is no longer bound by rigid forms or techniques.
Instead, they embody the principles of Taiji, allowing them to interact seamlessly with any situation, whether in combat, self-cultivation, or daily life.

​

​

Being zero even if your opponent 200 is a lofty goal indeed. We do a thing called tapi tapi. It’s a give and take exercise similar to chi sao in WC except we incorporate weapons. Typically a rattan stick. During this particular exercise, we try to work in as many locks and disarms as possible. We often do this blind folded using as close to zero energy as possible. It’s actually very liberating when you get in that zone. In that zone you can periodically sense when your opponent is going to move just before he does move. Doesn’t happen often for me, but it does happen.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Republic of China 1929 full contact tournament-

The 1929 Hangzhou Leitai Tournament

This kind of spectacle was later brought to the areas such as Taiwan and Hong Kong/Macau as can be seen in the famous 1954 thrilla in Macau

https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/cm...ge-match-tai-chi-vs-white-crane-recorded-1954

My guess is that the 1978 fullcontact tournament in (by some called)the Republic of China looked not very different .
So quite a far cry from the 1978 full contact that was going on in Japan, USA and Europe

I'm sure that kind of early 20th century display was much more full contact.

But what 1978 "full contact tournament"? In the PRC? It doesn't seem to have any historical records. So even I could easily say "oh I was there and defeated 20 men!"

There's just not evidence that ever happened. At least as far as Nationalist Era China, there are some actual records, vs. 1978 China fresh out of the Cultural Revolution.

It would be nice to have some validation but alas there isn't anything beyond guys claiming they kicked butt there, and marketing online.

 

[windwalker099]

There's just not evidence that ever happened. At least as far as Nationalist Era China, there are some actual records, vs. 1978 China fresh out of the Cultural Revolution.

It would be nice to have some validation but alas there isn't anything beyond guys claiming they kicked butt there, and marketing online.

Peter Ralston winning the 1978 Full-Contact World Tournament


1978 World Tournament

Ralston traveled to China in February 1978 to take part in the world full-contact martial arts tournament. Due to weight gained on the flight over, Peter weighed in at 154 pounds and he was bumped up a division from middleweight to light heavyweight.
Two of his students met him at the tournament and were his corner men.

The contest was full contact; meaning full power was used without any protective gear. Striking with any part of the body were allowed, as were throws, but when the opponents went to the mat to grapple they were stopped and stood back up.

The fighting went on for five days. During the warm up for his first fight, his Korean opponent saw him doing boxing warm ups. In one warm up, Ralston was hitting a badge on his student’s lapel with one hand twice before his student could block his arm. His Korean opponent for round one decided not to fight Ralston, much to the disappointment of Ralston (since he came all the way to China to fight), and he passed into the second stage of the tournament. Over the days, he won each of his fights easily and took first place.

Ralston was surprised when after receiving his world Champion trophy and certificate, he was called back up to receive another trophy. This time the trophy was for placing fifth in the team category. All of the Asian countries had competitions to decide their national champions and then sent a team of 20 champions to fight in the world tournament. The accumulative points of all the fighters on a team decided who would receive team trophies. Even though Ralston was a team of one, since he won all his matches with such a massive point advantage, he accumulated more individual points than most teams of 20.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Peter Ralston winning the 1978 Full-Contact World Tournament

Sorry, that's not a reputable source. Chengshin.com, Wikibin...none of this is sourced material. It might as well be fan fiction.

1978 World Tournament

Also, not really reputable. There are no reputable sources there. Ther images you posted are of someone who looks like he might be this Ralston guy, but there's nothing there to suggest he fought, let alone mopped up, in line with his autobiography.

And the OP video doesn't really line up with those claims either. A real champion should have something along the lines of provenance. In other words, it's a hard sell to show people a ho hum demo, and claim the guy showing it defeated all of China in 1978.

Ralston traveled to China in February 1978 to take part in the world full-contact martial arts tournament. Due to weight gained on the flight over,

He gained weight on his flight? This is a weird thing to claim.

Peter weighed in at 154 pounds and he was bumped up a division from middleweight to light heavyweight.
Two of his students met him at the tournament and were his corner men.

Which two students? Do we know who these guys were, who made it into China in 1978?

The contest was full contact; meaning full power was used without any protective gear. Striking with any part of the body were allowed, as were throws, but when the opponents went to the mat to grapple they were stopped and stood back up.

But there's no evidence of this. As far as I know, China didn't do this sort of thing in 1978. Sanshou tournaments in China were not a thing until years later.

The fighting went on for five days. During the warm up for his first fight, his Korean opponent saw him doing boxing warm ups. In one warm up, Ralston was hitting a badge on his student’s lapel with one hand twice before his student could block his arm. His Korean opponent for round one decided not to fight Ralston, much to the disappointment of Ralston (since he came all the way to China to fight), and he passed into the second stage of the tournament. Over the days, he won each of his fights easily and took first place.

Great. Let's see an actual source for this.

Something from a Chinese website that's not related to him, maybe?

Ralston was surprised when after receiving his world Champion trophy and certificate, he was called back up to receive another trophy. This time the trophy was for placing fifth in the team category. All of the Asian countries had competitions to decide their national champions and then sent a team of 20 champions to fight in the world tournament. The accumulative points of all the fighters on a team decided who would receive team trophies. Even though Ralston was a team of one, since he won all his matches with such a massive point advantage, he accumulated more individual points than most teams of 20.

There are so many silly claims in this.

And no actual video.

Peter Ralston winning the 1978 Full-Contact World Tournament


1978 World Tournament

Ralston traveled to China in February 1978 to take part in the world full-contact martial arts tournament. Due to weight gained on the flight over, Peter weighed in at 154 pounds and he was bumped up a division from middleweight to light heavyweight.
Two of his students met him at the tournament and were his corner men.

The contest was full contact; meaning full power was used without any protective gear. Striking with any part of the body were allowed, as were throws, but when the opponents went to the mat to grapple they were stopped and stood back up.

The fighting went on for five days. During the warm up for his first fight, his Korean opponent saw him doing boxing warm ups. In one warm up, Ralston was hitting a badge on his student’s lapel with one hand twice before his student could block his arm. His Korean opponent for round one decided not to fight Ralston, much to the disappointment of Ralston (since he came all the way to China to fight), and he passed into the second stage of the tournament. Over the days, he won each of his fights easily and took first place.

Ralston was surprised when after receiving his world Champion trophy and certificate, he was called back up to receive another trophy. This time the trophy was for placing fifth in the team category. All of the Asian countries had competitions to decide their national champions and then sent a team of 20 champions to fight in the world tournament. The accumulative points of all the fighters on a team decided who would receive team trophies.

This is all anecdotal, who wrote this?

Even though Ralston was a team of one, since he won all his matches with such a massive point advantage, he accumulated more individual points than most teams of 20.

You're really stretching credulity here. Bruce Lee made Enter the Dragon in 1973. The Chinese has cameras in 1978.

You claimed this guy led the development of full contact martial arts, but there's zero evidence of it.

I really don't care about how many long expositions you make, I would like to request a simple video from the last 50 years that shows this Ralston guy knows anything about full contact martial arts.

A basic sparring video? Any video from this alleged 1978 event? Something from the interim 50 years??

I don't mean to challenge your narrative, but I can pull up Olympic video from the early 1900s showing basic events. There is video from the middle 1900s showing judo and BJJ. And video from the late 1900s showing all these same things.

I just went to see something from this Ralston guy that is actually impressive, on an objective level. Your OP video is not it.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Do they ?
At what level ?

A problem with looking at videos of those claiming to represent a particular style or method.

"He Jinbao now teaches Yin Style Baguazhang at
my kungfu brother's MMA academy in Beijing alongside Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu
and Muay Thai Top team coaches."

"A problem with looking at videos"

This whole post is a red herring. I'm really starting to doubt you.

You asked two open questions, and then post something completely unrelated to Ralston.

I'm going to be a bit blunt here: Ralston. Not anyone else.

You made the claim he was instrumental in the development of "full contact". And yet so far all we've seen are so old photos of medals and crowds, and nothing of substance.

And now you're posting some random video of kung fu tied to BJJ, MMA, and Muay Thai out of Beijing.

What does this have to do with Ralston?

 

[Sammy Naur]

Peter Ralston, a noted figure in the development of full-contact fighting,

Sorry, no way. I don't take things like this on faith.

I need to see some actual proof this guy is a "noted figure in the development of full contact fighting". So far, no one has posted anything like that.

I'm trying to be civil here.

 

[Sammy Naur]

wow,,short cut

ok
Guess you'er not going to do any research to his background or anything..
Maybe a little before your time as well as some others..

No he's not wrong.

"research", show us something of substance.

Did you just called him "short cut"?

 

[Sammy Naur]

How does the shang shou version of this differs from the FMA version of this. One FMA philosophy is, “better to go to the hospital and not the morgue”. It typically presupposes that a weapon could or will be used at any given point in a confrontation.

I realize that the video just shows a single second of a confrontational flow.

It’s amazing how rolling back can be effective. Have you ever dodged an insect buzzing toward your face? In tennis, there have been multiple times when the ball was coming at my head and a slight rolling back saved me. My playing partners would say “wow! Nice move”

But Windwalker is not just presenting the video of "rolling back".

He's full on defending Ralston, someone with a very questionable martial arts background, showing a technique so basic to boxing and a lot of others.

He also just insulted Marvin, who I think was trying to agree/disagree, accuses him of the old "you didn't do your research" thing.

And called him "short cut". That's a slur.

Well I did my research. It turns out Ralston, the guy in the OP, was not an instrumental figure in full contact martial arts. Full stop.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Peter Ralston, a noted figure in the development of full-contact fighting, presents a concept he calls "stationary leading rollback."
What he outlines aligns with the principles described in

" **Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"** by Tang Fengchi.

So let's go back to basics Wind Walker. Fair is fair.

You laid out some premises here but lost all the full contact fighters with the first sentence.

I'm interested in Tai Chi. But not if you're going to spend days defending somebody like Peter Ralston, who really does appear to be a nobody in the world of full contact fighting.

 

[Same Trick]

I'm sure that kind of early 20th century display was much more full contact.

But what 1978 "full contact tournament"? In the PRC? It doesn't seem to have any historical records. So even I could easily say "oh I was there and defeated 20 men!"

There's just not evidence that ever happened. At least as far as Nationalist Era China, there are some actual records, vs. 1978 China fresh out of the Cultural Revolution.

It would be nice to have some validation but alas there isn't anything beyond guys claiming they kicked butt there, and marketing online.

The rumble in China of 1978 happened on the Taiwan province

There’s a pic online somewhere of the top three finalists in that 1930ish tournament, they’re all kind of bruised up and swollen in their faces

 

[Same Trick]

Sorry, that's not a reputable source. Chengshin.com, Wikibin...none of this is sourced material. It might as well be fan fiction.

Also, not really reputable. There are no reputable sources there. Ther images you posted are of someone who looks like he might be this Ralston guy, but there's nothing there to suggest he fought, let alone mopped up, in line with his autobiography.

And the OP video doesn't really line up with those claims either. A real champion should have something along the lines of provenance. In other words, it's a hard sell to show people a ho hum demo, and claim the guy showing it defeated all of China in 1978.

He gained weight on his flight? This is a weird thing to claim.


Which two students? Do we know who these guys were, who made it into China in 1978?

But there's no evidence of this. As far as I know, China didn't do this sort of thing in 1978. Sanshou tournaments in China were not a thing until years later.

Great. Let's see an actual source for this.

Something from a Chinese website that's not related to him, maybe?

There are so many silly claims in this.

And no actual video.

This is all anecdotal, who wrote this?

You're really stretching credulity here. Bruce Lee made Enter the Dragon in 1973. The Chinese has cameras in 1978.

You claimed this guy led the development of full contact martial arts, but there's zero evidence of it.

I really don't care about how many long expositions you make, I would like to request a simple video from the last 50 years that shows this Ralston guy knows anything about full contact martial arts.

A basic sparring video? Any video from this alleged 1978 event? Something from the interim 50 years??

I don't mean to challenge your narrative, but I can pull up Olympic video from the early 1900s showing basic events. There is video from the middle 1900s showing judo and BJJ. And video from the late 1900s showing all these same things.

I just went to see something from this Ralston guy that is actually impressive, on an objective level. Your OP video is not it.

Yes the claim Ralston was a leading the full contact development is a long shot, 1978 Bill Wallace was already three (or four ?)times pro kickboxing champ, Kickboxing had already been introduced even in my home country(Sweden) at that time, and had also produced world class kickboxers by then