State of Mind when Fighting?

[Chris Parker]

The thing about state of mind is you don't have time to fix it. So it becomes a bit of a non issue.

While there isn't much time to adjust/develop a new mindset in the event, I disagree that it's a "non-issue". It's like saying that you can't learn a particular technique in the middle of a fight, so it's a non-issue about employing it. Really, like any other part of the training, it should be dealt with and covered/developed well and truly before the situation itself. And it's such a large part of the way martial arts work that it should never be considered a "non-issue".

Although having said that I like to rage out a bit. Sort of.

Frankly, from my perspective, that's the sign of an inexperienced amateur… and you're opening yourself up to someone who has a more developed skill set in this area. In other words, "raging out" is something that should be strived to be avoided… on a number of levels.

Note that I'm not saying you're inexperienced (in regards to your security work), but that what you're describing is what I see in such inexperienced (typically young, as well) persons.

 

[drop bear]

Frankly, from my perspective, that's the sign of an inexperienced amateur… and you're opening yourself up to someone who has a more developed skill set in this area. In other words, "raging out" is something that should be strived to be avoided… on a number of levels.

Note that I'm not saying you're inexperienced (in regards to your security work), but that what you're describing is what I see in such inexperienced (typically young, as well) persons.

Not really. Both methods work. Inexperienced would be allowing emotion to hinder your actions rather than help. Used as a tool to drive you, emotion works fine. But like anything you let it get over you and you can put yourself in trouble.

 

[drop bear]

While there isn't much time to adjust/develop a new mindset in the event, I disagree that it's a "non-issue". It's like saying that you can't learn a particular technique in the middle of a fight, so it's a non-issue about employing it. Really, like any other part of the training, it should be dealt with and covered/developed well and truly before the situation itself. And it's such a large part of the way martial arts work that it should never be considered a "non-issue".

It cant be dealt with before. Not specifically. Unless you can induce real fear in your training. You can overcome it by creating a super simple task set that someone could intellectualise their way through.

We on the job train people through that. But of course people mostly don't have the opportunity to do that.

 

[drop bear]

As far as on the job. I make them fight. Simple as that. My reasoning is I know given a choice between backing a guy up and running away I will back them up. And i know if a guy is getting attacked they don't have a choice they have to fight. So emotional preparedness aside we have a situation where everyone who is supposed to be fighting is fighting.

 

[Chris Parker]

It cant be dealt with before.

Yes, it really, really can. It has been in Japanese martial arts (and many, many other cultures) for, well, centuries.

Not specifically. Unless you can induce real fear in your training.

And welcome to real training, mate.

You can overcome it by creating a super simple task set that someone could intellectualise their way through.

I have no idea what you mean by that… can you rephrase? Overcome what? The training? The mindset? How does intellectualising help at all… and why a "super simple task"? Sorry, you lost me in all of that…

We on the job train people through that. But of course people mostly don't have the opportunity to do that.

Train them through what?

 

[Chris Parker]

As far as on the job. I make them fight. Simple as that. My reasoning is I know given a choice between backing a guy up and running away I will back them up. And i know if a guy is getting attacked they don't have a choice they have to fight. So emotional preparedness aside we have a situation where everyone who is supposed to be fighting is fighting.

Ah, okay… yeah, that's not really anything to do with emotional control, mind-set, or anything else… it's simply forcing a situation, and (to my mind) very removed from actual training.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, it really, really can. It has been in Japanese martial arts (and many, many other cultures) for, well, centuries.

lots of things have been in Japanese martial arts for centuries doesn't mean it is going to work.

Or specifically work for the individual.

I am not sure where you are going with that?

 

[drop bear]

Ah, okay… yeah, that's not really anything to do with emotional control, mind-set, or anything else… it's simply forcing a situation, and (to my mind) very removed from actual training.

On the job training. And forcing a situation controls the mindset better than some sort of pre fight mental training. Because the mindset is seconds too action. Which is a mindset in itself.

 

[drop bear]

And welcome to real training, mate.

Well we just punch people in the head untill they cry or get over it. Which is fear inducing. But a bit mean.

 

[Chris Parker]

Where am I going with that? Same place we always go… you say something can't be done, we bring up how it has been done for ages, is continued to be done today, works, has worked, continues to work, but because it's beyond your experience and exposure, you refuse to acknowledge it, or accept that there's more beyond your understanding.

Frankly, at this point, you're what's called a frog in a well.

I mean… you do know that mindset training in Japanese arts is considered far more the point than any physical techniques, yeah? Because it's what actually generates success? The thing is, we have actual methods and training ideals that gear towards such, rather than leaving it to a random hope that such things might develop independently.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well we just punch people in the head untill they cry or get over it. Which is fear inducing. But a bit mean.

Yeah… see, that's neither fear-inducing, nor mean, when it all comes down to it. And, again, just the most basic, base-level idea of martial arts training… to the point that I wouldn't really consider such thing "martial arts training"… just fighting. Which is so far below what I'm concerned about that it's not even a factor, bluntly.

 

[drop bear]

I have no idea what you mean by that… can you rephrase? Overcome what? The training? The mindset? How does intellectualising help at all… and why a "super simple task"? Sorry, you lost me in all of that…

Overcome the emotional response. By giving them no choice. Give a person one job and make them focus on that.

 

[Chris Parker]

How is there any emotional response in doing one "super simple task"? Or do you mean give them one task to do while trying to distract them with other stimuli (which would make some kinda sense, but is missing from everything you've said so far)?

Either way, that's teaching focus, but not necessarily mindset… so you know...

 

[drop bear]

Where am I going with that? Same place we always go… you say something can't be done, we bring up how it has been done for ages, is continued to be done today, works, has worked, continues to work, but because it's beyond your experience and exposure, you refuse to acknowledge it, or accept that there's more beyond your understanding.

Frankly, at this point, you're what's called a frog in a well.

I mean… you do know that mindset training in Japanese arts is considered far more the point than any physical techniques, yeah? Because it's what actually generates success? The thing is, we have actual methods and training ideals that gear towards such, rather than leaving it to a random hope that such things might develop independently.

so you are suggesting something works because that is what you have always done?

That is not the definition of working.

And the Japanese are not exactly dominant martial artists. So their mindset may need work.

It is not whether something is outside my understanding. But it does have to show some sort of result. Otherwise we are talking magic here.

 

[drop bear]

How is there any emotional response in doing one "super simple task"? Or do you mean give them one task to do while trying to distract them with other stimuli (which would make some kinda sense, but is missing from everything you've said so far)?

Either way, that's teaching focus, but not necessarily mindset… so you know...

one job you can do while crapping your pants. Then you don't need amazing mental powers. You can function without them.

Yes focus is a good description Because mindset is kind of a non issue.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah… see, that's neither fear-inducing, nor mean, when it all comes down to it. And, again, just the most basic, base-level idea of martial arts training… to the point that I wouldn't really consider such thing "martial arts training"… just fighting. Which is so far below what I'm concerned about that it's not even a factor, bluntly.

I am happy to be considered that i am learning and enforcing fighting and not martial arts.

probably 2 separate training regimes anyway.

 

[drop bear]

I am happy to be considered that i am learning and enforcing fighting and not martial arts.

probably 2 separate training regimes anyway.

Endorsing not enforcing.

 

[Chris Parker]

so you are suggesting something works because that is what you have always done?

That is not the definition of working.

And the Japanese are not exactly dominant martial artists. So their mindset may need work.

It is not whether something is outside my understanding. But it does have to show some sort of result. Otherwise we are talking magic here.

Yeah… you're again arguing from a point of ignorance, mate… it's always been done because it works. It works because it is the way human beings are hardwired (you can look at the anthropology of humans, how we developed as hunters and so forth to see the basis for it), and as far as the Japanese not being "dominant martial artists", dude, you're missing the entire point… I'm not talking about Japanese martial artists… I'm talking about Japanese martial arts… which you don't seem to have the first clue about.

This isn't magic. This is the way things work. I'll put it this way… when your coach ties you up in knots, are they "raging out"? Or are they staying relaxed, non-emotional, and so on?

one job you can do while crapping your pants. Then you don't need amazing mental powers. You can function without them.

Yeah… you're still not really making your case. There's nothing at all about "amazing mental powers"… there's the idea of addressing the mental state as part of the training. You really don't have the first clue what you're talking about here.

Yes focus is a good description Because mindset is kind of a non issue.

No, it's really not. Go back to the example of your coach.

 

[Chris Parker]

I am happy to be considered that i am learning and enforcing fighting and not martial arts.

probably 2 separate training regimes anyway.

Yep. But here's the thing… you're not on a "fighting" forum… you're on a martial arts one. So maybe you start to accept that martial arts are a bit more than you understand, and cover a lot more than you realise? Fighting, if it's part of it at all, is nothing but the base level of what's covered in martial arts. And if you're happy staying down at that level, that's fine… but insisting that others who take a wider, and deeper view, stay where you are… that's less so.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah… you're again arguing from a point of ignorance, mate… it's always been done because it works. It works because it is the way human beings are hardwired (you can look at the anthropology of humans, how we developed as hunters and so forth to see the basis for it), and as far as the Japanese not being "dominant martial artists", dude, you're missing the entire point… I'm not talking about Japanese martial artists… I'm talking about Japanese martial arts… which you don't seem to have the first clue about.

This isn't magic. This is the way things work. I'll put it this way… when your coach ties you up in knots, are they "raging out"? Or are they staying relaxed, non-emotional, and so on?

It is always done because it works is not a real thing. There are two separate statements there that do not support each other.

I have always got icecream out with a spoon. It gets the icecream out but the spoon bends. If i get icecream out with a knife it works better.

Always done is not really evidence that something works.

I could look at the anthropology of humans. But it seems an overly complicated and unreliable way of seeing if something works. I would just test it to see if it works.

Japanese martial arts trained in Japan by Japanese has to be the best case scenario for the correct mindset and therefore should have the best success. But they don't.