Standing wristlocks

[MAfreak]

@Kung Fu Wang no, just no.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The type of wrist locks people tend to question are those Aikido, Hapkido, and Kung Fu wrist locks that are "magically" applied by small men or women as a huge person throws a punch at them.

They seem to work OK with not much training on gun toting ice-cream robbers:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Joint locks work just fine. The problem is that many people keep trying to use a screwdriver as a hammer.
Joint minipulation work well when used as they were intended within the context they were intended.
It's less about a "sucker punch" and more about appropriate context.

Well,I was suggesting that using standing wristlocks as a sort of "grappling sucker punch" is an appropriate context for that tool - one in which they have been demonstrated to work.

What other context(s) would you suggest are appropriate for using standing wristlocks?

 

[oftheherd1]

I think it's important to note WHY wrist locks work so well for law enforcement and security personnel; Those people are authority figures and typically when they restrain you, you tend to comply, also police will cuff, mace, taze, or shoot someone before applying a wrist lock. Also more than one cop can be involved. I've seen cops apply wrist locks while the assailant was cuffed with another cop putting his knee on the perp's neck.

Where are you from? Authority figures getting more respect? There is a total lack of respect or there would not be a reason to apply wrist or other locks.

And how do you cuff someone with out some type of prior restraint?

As to the bolded statement, this seems to be an agenda in many of your posts. I'm sorry if you had such an experience without any reason. There are bad cops, there are impatient cops, and there are a lot of good cops who want to be fair and proper, but mostly just want to go home at the end of their shift. They will not inflict pain or injury just because they can. They will not use restraint unless a perp gives them a reason or department procedure requires it.

Wrist locks also work fine for bouncers because they tend to be pretty big guys, and can restrain smaller people with relative ease. If a bigger guy gets out of line, more than one bouncer will restrain him..

Well, why would that not be so? Is a bouncer, or a cop for that matter, in a sporting contest where injury is unlikely? Or in a Marquis de Queensbury rules street encounter? Should not bouncers especially (but cops as well) not prefer to use only the restraint necessary for compliance?

But it is not necessary to be a big guy to properly apply joint locking techniques. Good skill, yes.

The type of wrist locks people tend to question are those Aikido, Hapkido, and Kung Fu wrist locks that are "magically" applied by small men or women as a huge person throws a punch at them..

"People tend to question?" How much company do you need to make a statement? How about you, do you also question the ability of a skilled Aikido, Hapkido, or Kung Fu MA to apply wrist locks effectively? If so, I would have to guess you haven't met skilled practitioners, or they were being very gentle with you. I know in the Hapkido I learned, size meant nothing when applying or resisting a properly applied technique. If your experience has been otherwise, I would consider that your loss as you haven't really met skilled practitioners who could properly teach you joint locks..

I do not mean to say a super strong person, knowing what was coming, might no be able to resist. But normally an opponent would not be able to guess ahead of time what technique was about to be applied.

@Tony Dismukes and others. One thing I haven't seen here is a definition of what wrist lock is being discussed. That makes comments too easy to misunderstand. I was taught many wrist locks. Some are or can be pain compliance techniques for control only. Others are used to damage an opponent's joint(s) and would likely be followed by strikes, takedowns, throws, cuts, etc.

So I guess I should really ask, what type of wrist lock(s) did you mean Tony Dismukes?

As for sucker punches and MMA, people do get one punch KO'd.

As already pointed out, that would not be a sucker punch.

Also, I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, their opinions, or their MA. I only say that no MA is any good without skill on the part of the practitioner, and that on any day, any martial artist may have a very bad day, and his opponent may have a very good day. Those things all have to be taken into consideration before one decides to put down another MA in broad terms.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So I guess I should really ask, what type of wrist lock(s) did you mean Tony Dismukes?

I'm thinking about the entire family of standing wristlocks. (I distinguish the standing versions from the same techniques applied on the ground because you can control the body and isolate the joint more easily on the ground.)

I know in the Hapkido I learned, size meant nothing when applying or resisting a properly applied technique. If your experience has been otherwise, I would consider that your loss as you haven't really met skilled practitioners who could properly teach you joint locks..

Once you have a technically perfect wristlock all the way sunk in, then it negates a lot of size and strength. The problem comes with getting it applied in the first place on a stronger, non-compliant opponent who is actively trying to harm you and also prevent you from controlling him.

As an example, consider a standard outwards twisting wristlock (call it kote gaeshi or omote gyaku or whatever your style names it). Typically you start by compromising your opponent's balance, then you weaken their structure (get their arm extended and off center thereby weakening their connection to their core), then get their wrist flexed and then twisted to the outside, all the while maintaining your own structure and balance and avoiding counterattacks.

Once you've reached that end point, your opponent's strength has been mostly neutralized. The problem is that their strength can make every step leading up to that more difficult. When you work to take their balance, they can use their strength to mess with your balance. When you try to weaken their structure by extending their arm, they can use their strength to yank it back. When you try to flex their wrist (especially if you haven't already managed to compromise their balance and structure) they can use their strength to hold their wrist rigidly in its natural straight position. (Not to mention pummeling you with their free hand if you haven't already captured their balance, compromised their structure, and broken the alignment of their wrist.)

I'm not saying it's impossible to overcome all that with sufficient technique. I'm just saying that relative strength is still a factor at least up until the very end of the lock. Applying the technique as a "sucker punch" greatly increases your chance of getting it sunk in before they start using their strength or other attributes against you.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have used wrist locks, come a long techniques in the past while working. They work just fine when used appropriately. As mentioned above they work great when someone is not mentally sound or they are inebriated, etc. They work great when used in a surprise fashion. They also work just fine when you first light someone up and they are fuzzy in their head and again surprised and not expecting it. You just have to use them at the right time and place. Just like everything else!

 

[Spinedoc]

Wristlocks can be very effective, but they have to either be used with an element of surprise, such as surprise nikyo (is there another kind?) OR with proper technique. Just applying a Kotegaeshi to someone resisting isn't going to work. You have to unbalance them first. You have to get them to either overcommit to the attack, IE; Chudan Tsuki with a tenkan..you actually allow the punch to pass and brush it by...(you're NOT going to catch a fast punch at speed in mid air, that's Hollywood nonsense), and then apply an extension force to the forearm, sliding your arm down into position as you tenkan. Basically you get them unbalanced forward, and then tenkan getting them to spin, now, while they are still unbalance, you apply the kotegaeshi.

Same with other wristlocks. Yokomenuchi Shihonage (similar motion to a roundhouse punch)...you tenshin or move out of the way, forcing uke to extend to try and reach you, as they do, you step in, apply ATEMI striking them in the face, while you use your other arm to grab the wrist AT IT'S FULLEST EXTENSION...not before, and then while they are unbalanced leaning forward, your atemi causes them to unbalance backwards, and you apply the shihonage WHILE they are still unbalanced...

Bottom line is, wristlocks work fine if you unbalance your opponent first...if you allow uke to regain his balance and center, then you have to do something else.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The problem comes with getting it applied in the first place on a stronger, non-compliant opponent who is actively trying to harm you and also prevent you from controlling him.

Think of it like this. When you are fighting someone, do you tell them then when you are are going to punch or kick and where? Wrists locks are like that. The are applied when the opponent is least ready for it. My hand can be one someones wrist but without having the intent of a wrist lock. Then when the moment comes I can apply it. Or my hand can quickly apply the wrist lock at the moment my hand touches the wrist.

I'm just saying that relative strength is still a factor at least up until the very end of the lock.

Only the grip needs to be strong. The stronger the grip, the better you'll be able to handle someone who is physically stronger. The good thing is that most people, including the big strong guys, have weak wrists.

 

[MAfreak]

They seem to work OK with not much training on gun toting ice-cream robbers:

because someone holding a gun in front of you isn't moving that arm. unlike punching.

 

[hoshin1600]

As an example, consider a standard outwards twisting wristlock (call it kote gaeshi or omote gyaku or whatever your style names it). Typically you start by compromising your opponent's balance, then you weaken their structure (get their arm extended and off center thereby weakening their connection to their core), then get their wrist flexed and then twisted to the outside, all the while maintaining your own structure and balance and avoiding counterattacks.

maybe this is part of the problem, you dont need those first steps to do the joint manipulation.
joint manipulations are similar to single or double leg take downs. they need to be done quick and with precision and as Tony said with a degree of surprise. if i crawled around the mat on all fours trying to grab your legs over and over again and thats the way everyone was taught to do a double leg take down, everyone would agree "they dont work"

What other context(s) would you suggest are appropriate for using standing wristlocks?

i agree with your premise that a wrist lock can be compared to a sucker punch, but as someone else pointed out "why bother, just punch him" . so i was trying to give a broader definition. the question of why do a wrist lock and not a punch is a key question and the answer is context and situation.
police and to a lessor extant bouncers are not allowed to punch and are trying to gain compliance (not win a fight) so that is one valid context.


and then there is this context.
imagine him with a weapon malfunction and coming at you with a knife. punches are not going to do much and your first priority is to secure the knife. to me this was the original context and purpose of joint manipulations and control. they are as valid today as they were 1000 years ago. through out history societies acknowledged the human weakness and created protective gear. thus the combative behavior takes this into account and tries to counter. large portions of modern martial arts were never actually combatives but rather a combative sport. punching is a staple in martial arts but in true combatives punching is as worthless as waving your finger at them and telling them "your going to get a time out mister".
both blunt force and edge weapons are a fact of life in true combat. they create a disparity of force with a multiplying factor. the tactics and approach to weapons based combatives is not the same a combative sports. joint manipulations become a primary tactic in this context.

 

[Buka]

A wristlock thread, yay! A lot to talk about IMO. I've been training them for a long time, have used them in several jobs I've had, and have taught some versions of them in DT to cops. I'm at work, be back to this thread tonight.

As for catching an incoming punch with one, nah. I suppose it's been done, just like landing a large commercial airliner safely atop the Hudson river has been done, but not really a good way to go.

As for defense against a knife - I've never been talented enough to do that, so haven't really thought of them in that way.

 

[elder999]

As for defense against a knife - I've never been talented enough to do that, so haven't really thought of them in that way.

It's all in the context, not in talent.....a matter of timing really.

I've used "standing wristlocks" against people trying to deploy weapons on several occasions: they want to get that knife out of their pocket or sheath. They want to get that gun out. They want to use that stick.

A successful defense employs their intended motion against them, with some added body positioning,

Otherwise, sure: stronger, cop, bouncer, yada, yadda, yadda....carry on.

 

[Buka]

It's all in the context, not in talent.....a matter of timing really.

I've used "standing wristlocks" against people trying to deploy weapons on several occasions: they want to get that knife out of their pocket or sheath. They want to get that gun out. They want to use that stick.

A successful defense employs their intended motion against them, with some added body positioning,

Otherwise, sure: stronger, cop, bouncer, yada, yadda, yadda....carry on.

Oh, yes, agreed, I have as well.(but it wasn't a weapon, it was an ID) I meant once the knife was out.

 

[elder999]

Oh, yes, agreed, I have as well.(but it wasn't a weapon, it was an ID) I meant once the knife was out.

Yeah-once the knife is out, shoot them.....or hit 'em with the cane-most of these days, I've got the cane-it'll be in my hand....I'm practicing "hit 'em with the cane and then shoot 'em,"but really hoping that I never get to try it out......

 

[Flying Crane]

Yeah-once the knife is out, shoot them.....or hit 'em with the cane-most of these days, I've got the cane-it'll be in my hand....I'm practicing "hit 'em with the cane and then shoot 'em,"but really hoping that I never get to try it out......

Yeah but, ya don't ever see that in the Octagon so, ya know, it doesn't actually work, and stuff...

 

[drop bear]

Where are you from? Authority figures getting more respect? There is a total lack of respect or there would not be a reason to apply wrist or other locks.

And how do you cuff someone with out some type of prior restraint?

As to the bolded statement, this seems to be an agenda in many of your posts. I'm sorry if you had such an experience without any reason. There are bad cops, there are impatient cops, and there are a lot of good cops who want to be fair and proper, but mostly just want to go home at the end of their shift. They will not inflict pain or injury just because they can. They will not use restraint unless a perp gives them a reason or department procedure requires it.

My experience has been that people don't really want to fight the cops even if they are resisting them. Too many consequences.

I have fought cuffs on to people. And I have seen people just allow themselves to be cuffed. So there is a spectrum there.

Good hammerlocks work well if you don't break the arm.

 

[drop bear]

A wristlock thread, yay! A lot to talk about IMO. I've been training them for a long time, have used them in several jobs I've had, and have taught some versions of them in DT to cops. I'm at work, be back to this thread tonight.

As for catching an incoming punch with one, nah. I suppose it's been done, just like landing a large commercial airliner safely atop the Hudson river has been done, but not really a good way to go.

As for defense against a knife - I've never been talented enough to do that, so haven't really thought of them in that way.

Standing wrist locks and weapons defence work almost exactly the same. And you do increase the percentages the same.

So it is more likely to work if you have numbers and have snuck up on the guy.

Punching defence to wrist locks is helped by good clinching.

 

[hoshin1600]

another set back in the discussion might be the one dimensional view of what a wrist lock should look like and the end result. sometimes its only to twist and "pull up the slack" in the arm so you can bash the elbow joint or radial nerve with a blunt object in order to release a weapon

 

[Buka]

Wrist locks are great, but not all the time, as in - they're not suitable for all circumstances. I know that can be said for any technique, but it's more so for wrist locks. Obviously, you have to have good technique. But even then, not all things are equal. I'm 142 pounds, some of you guys are much bigger and stronger than me, and would have more opportunity applying various wrist locks against me than I would probably have against you.

I always taught my cops that when someone was being violent you had to stop the violence before you could apply any kind of hold, especially a wrist lock. Exceptions? Sure, but it's usually part of the bigger/stronger equation than the other way around. And cops don't get as much training as you and I do, they get what they get, and usually learn more from other cops they work the street with.

I know a lot of different wrist/arm locks, but I don't know any of their names. Neither do any cops I taught, many of whom have used them successfully and often, and have so for many years. You might wonder why, how that can be. It has to do with filling out your reports and the likelihood of going to court. If your report states "I applied a kote gaeshi to the suspect etc ect" the defense counsel is going to tear you a new one. He'll start with mispronouncing it, see if you correct him, ask you if you're a martial arts master, etc etc, where you learned this kote gaeshi and if that term is listed in your department's manual, which he already has a copy of. And it can go downhill from there. What you would write was "I took him down etc". When asked how, you would say "with a take down I was taught in Defensive Tactics."
(I borrowed the term from Andrew Green's post. Thanks, Andrew.)

I first learned wrist locks in a D.T. class in 76, long before I was a cop. A friend was teaching and had me take the class. He purposely never mentioned their name (for reasons stated), especially their name in a language other than English. I never paid attention to names since that day. It worked out well for me. And those I taught. And when I taught my students in my dojo, I still didn't call them by name. My students are familiar with a lot of wrist locks. If you ask them which ones, they'll say, "This one and that one and the one over there" as they demonstrate on their own wrists. That may sound crazy to some. I don't care.

JowGaWolf, on "Breaking the wrist is the real purpose of a wrist lock." Every art is different, every job, too. Okay in Kung Fu, (and more power to you, brother) but it's not in Law Enforcement and not in American Karate. It's an option,sure, but not the purpose. Control and/or pain compliance is the purpose for us.

I've used several different standing locks in my life. Couple arm drags, outside wrist lock take down, several goose neck come alongs and I even used a bent elbow wrist lock when I was a cop and walked a guy across the street in a low squat walk (him, not me) He was a young chump who was nice enough to put both his hands on my shoulders like a dad talking to his kid, while I was telling him to leave the property he was on. We were on camera and I just couldn't resist. It was either that or place him under arrest and I didn't want to do that as I was going off duty in fifteen minutes.

We used to train two guys coming up behind an unsuspecting person. We would grab the upper arms as we kneed his legs out from under him - and apply goose necks to his wrists. It was easy because when their legs go out from under them, they lose spacial reference as well as balance and their arms go on vacation for a second. Did that one once with my partner. It was great. It really sucks when there's a goose neck on each wrist. It's a helpless and scary feeling for the person. Kind of fun when you're doing it, though.

The pic below was on my dojo wall for a few years. Under it was written "Wrist lock this." That was me with one of my teachers, Joe Lewis. I was assisting him in a seminar. (on joint locks in self defense) We didn't pose, he just grabbed me and launched me into the wall as he was talking about getting grabbed by surprise and suddenly being a beat behind. I actually tried to stun him with my left hand a half second after this photo was taken - which he was waiting for (duh) - he kicked my feet out from under me (which were dangling off the floor) and threw my upper body down in the opposite direction. I went like a pin wheel. Thank God he stopped my head from bouncing off the floor.
Joe had hands and wrists like a stone mason. You weren't going to wrist lock him with anything, even if you were as strong as him.

I spent a good amount of time with Wally Jay over the years. He had such a smooth application of joint locks to the wrists, elbows, shoulders and fingers. (He was very cool, too) He always told me the same thing. "They are not for every situation, but when the situation and opportunity are there, you should know how to apply them quickly. And what to do after they're on."

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

I look at wrist locks as another tool to add to your toolbox. Catching or deflecting a strike with the intent of applying a wrist lock is quite hard to do and probably is the main reason you don't see it happen in mma. On another note they can be applicable when people are grabbing you in a grappling match or a self defense street scenario.

A goal is not always meant to be reached, it often serves simply as something to aim at. (Bruce Lee)