Stance training in ancient Shaolin styles

[Xue Sheng]

Your original question was

Some stances are just too wide. What do you guys think about this one? If you "spring" his leg from inside out with just a little bit force, he will fall.

And it sounded by your question that you felt this was a fighting stance with this part of your original question that is why I said it was a training stance

If you "spring" his leg from inside out with just a little bit force, he will fall.

Yes he would, if that were a fighting stance, if it were a training stance and you walked in and you ""spring" his leg from inside out with just a little bit force" so he will fall... then you would be rather mean and taking advantage of a person who is not fighting. That is why I said it was a "Training stance"

Now this bit

Will it be better to train "leg strength" and "fighting stance (or fighting application)" at the same time so you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone? Of course you can train both separately, but why do you want to do that for?


If you start your horse stance as both feet touching together, you will have poor balance. When you make your horse stance wider, your balance will increase. When your horse stance has reached to the shoulder width, you will have the best balance. If you keep increase your horse stance width, your balance will get poorer and poorer.

It's just like the bell curve. The highest point of that curve is the "shoulder width". The same bell curve also apply to the parallel concept as well. When your feet are pointing inward or outward, you will have poor balance. When your feet are parallel, you will have the best balance.

Why didn't he train the horse stance that he can "use" in fighting such as hip throw, shoulder throw, embrace throw, or ...? In all those throws that require the "horse stance", the width of the horse stance should be as wide as the "shoulder width".

If we care about "train as you fight", your horse stance training should be as just like you will use in fighting when you apply hip throw, shoulder throw, embrace throw, or ... If you use your horse stance in the striking art, you should concern your own balance issue.

Your

- "narrow" horse stance will ask for your opponent's "sweep".
- "wide" horse stance will ask for your opponent's "spring".

Let me ask you a question, what trains more muscle, taking a lower wider stance, or a higher narrower stance?

Also on what data did you base your Bell Curve?

Add to that you are using a picture of Jake as a point to argue for or against and frankly that is just a plain silly place to argue from...

If you want to argue against training a horse stance then start form a point that is a realistic horse stance for training in Chinese martial arts such as this one of Tony Yang

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Let me ask you a question, what trains more muscle, taking a lower wider stance, or a higher narrower stance? ... Also on what data did you base your Bell Curve?

I believe the "shoulder width horse stance" should build up strong muscle too. Again, it's the general issue of "training as you fight" or "kill 2 birds with 1 stone". Of course when you do a "floor stretch", you are just doing the stretching and you are not using that posture in fighting. Something just can't fit into "kill 2 birds with 1 stone" model, but the horse stance training should be able to fit into that model nicely.

You can stay in horse stance and let your opponent to sweep/spring your leg and draw your own bell curve. You can also test your own horse stance by lifting double heads weight over your head and find out which horse stance width will give you the most "lifting power". You can draw your own bell curve that way too.

It's easy to see that on both extremes, the balance will be poor (the lowest points of the bell curve). Where will be the highest point of your bell curve, it's not difficult to find it out by yourself.

 

[Tez3]

If you start your horse stance as both feet touching together

I don't like to be obvious but if your feet are touching it is not a 'horse' stance. I'm from Wado Ryu, we have three different horse stances, we don't have poor balance on any of them, feet in, out or straight. But then we don't punch from them.

and that's an incorrect way to do a floor stretch, the back should be straight.

 

[clfsean]

I don't like to be obvious but if your feet are touching it is not a 'horse' stance. I'm from Wado Ryu, we have three different horse stances, we don't have poor balance on any of them, feet in, out or straight. But then we don't punch from them.

and that's an incorrect way to do a floor stretch, the back should be straight.

Tez, in Chinese martial arts, you will hear the term "ma" associated with stances. "Ma" in both Mandarin & Cantonese means "horse". So in Cantonese, it's common for every stance/posture to be a "ma" ... Sei Ping Ma, Duk Lup Ma, Gung Ma, Waan Gung Ma, Ding ji Ma, Diu Ma, etc... There are postures that have nothing common with the notion of "sitting on a horse" ... Wu Dip Ma, Tang Long Ma, Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma ... Butterfly Horse, Praying Mantis Horse, Goat Riding Horse ...

So not every horse is a horse, of course.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if your feet are touching it is not a 'horse' stance.

Usually, the definition of horse stance is the 50-50 weight distribution. It may not have much to do with the width of that stance. The width of the stance is relative but the 50-50 weight distribution of the stance is absolute.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Some stances are just too wide. What do you guys think about this one? If you "spring" his leg from inside out with just a little bit force, he will fall.

I wouldn't stand like that in a fight but it is a good training stance for conditioning and for building leg and lower body strength.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Not everyone teaches for money.

A Dojo is simply a location, a training hall.

Back then, I doubt profit was on the mind of any shaolin monks.

It was about discipline, and fundamentals (among more spiritual pursuits Im sure)

I never said people always do teach for money but lets face it, if you're going to teach, period, one thing that is essential is students.

 

[PhotonGuy]

It was about putting in the hard work necessary, whatever it takes, to get it right and develop some truly devastating and useful skills. That's what kung fu is, that's what it means: skill through hard work and dedicated practice. Because back then, your very life could depend on it. Nobody had a cell phone, calling 911 for help was not an option.

Exactly. Training in martial arts was much more of a necessity back in those days than it is today, so people wouldn't drop out so easily like they do today.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I don't think anyone here is saying that stance training is not useful, only that doing nothing BUT stance training (i.e. - not teaching any punches, kicks, forms, or anything else) for an extended time would be a hard sell in today's world and most students would get bored and not stick with it. But, you can still do stance training in addition to these other things and stances happen to be something that's fairly easy for students to practice on their own time away from class too.

My points exactly. Thank you for clarifying it.

 

[Tez3]

Usually, the definition of horse stance is the 50-50 weight distribution. It may not have much to do with the width of that stance. The width of the stance is relative but the 50-50 weight distribution of the stance is absolute.

then you should actually qualify your statements so they sound sensible, feet together in a horse stance is illogical.

 

[Flying Crane]

I wouldn't stand like that in a fight but it is a good training stance for conditioning and for building leg and lower body strength.

Except that he is so low his torso is sagging below his knees. The camera angle hides it a bit, but if you could view him straight on you would see it. Bad form, bad habit, may be injurious.

 

[clfsean]

Glad somebody else mentioned it.

 

[clfsean]

then you should actually qualify your statements so they sound sensible, feet together in a horse stance is illogical.

Ding Bu / Haang Ma ... Nail Stance / Elemental Horse ... A horse is a horse. Remember not everybody uses the same terminology.

 

[Tez3]

Ding Bu / Haang Ma ... Nail Stance / Elemental Horse ... A horse is a horse. Remember not everybody uses the same terminology.

I find it hard to believe though that standing still, knees straight, feet together could ever be described as a horse stance.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I find it hard to believe though that standing still, knees straight, feet together could ever be described as a horse stance.

The thing about the Chinese language is they tend to group similar things into one category such as horse stance. If you look at mandarin for wine (jiǔ) there are all sorts of different types of wine which is an alcoholic beverage therefore all alcoholic beverages are lumped into one category

jiǔ
wēi shì jì jiǔ
pí jiǔ

But from an English speakers prospective they are far form the same because in order those, to us, are

Wine
Whiskey
Beer

Which is why there are several different stances referred to as "Horse Stance" in CMA, they are similar enough within marital arts to all be a type of horse stance.

 

[Tez3]

they are similar enough within marital arts to all be a type of horse stance.

Now that I do refuse to believe roflmao!

 

[Flying Crane]

I find it hard to believe though that standing still, knees straight, feet together could ever be described as a horse stance.

Think of the term "horse" to be synonymous with "stance". It's not about describing the shape of the stance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

feet together in a horse stance is illogical.

Such stance does exist in CMA. Since this training doesn't achieve "kill 2 birds with 1 stone" principle, I prefer the shoulder width horse stance instead.

 

[Tez3]

Think of the term "horse" to be synonymous with "stance". It's not about describing the shape of the stance.

Mmm however the discussion is in English and therefore to save any confusion the poster (KFW) should have said stance, don't you think?

 

[Tez3]

Such stance does exist in CMA.

Knees are bent so not the same as knees straight, feet together is it?