Stance training in ancient Shaolin styles

[Xue Sheng]

It's not static for me & mine. It's dynamic. You have to move to use a stance. If you go only completely static, you are incredibly rooted. However the downer is that's all you know. Likewise if you never root, you may be quick as hell, but a strong wind will topple you. You have to learn a moving root. You can't do it standing like a statue or moving like leaf in the breeze. It's a mix of both. At first more static than not, but then it needs to equal out.

Your milage may vary...

Becoming double rooted is always an issue and I will admit after much standing in Santi Shi I came to the conclusion that ultimately you need to me able to move that and maintain structure and root... oh and be relaxed too.

I use to be a big proponent of standing in Santi at least 20 minutes per side, which is light on the Hebei side and heavy on the Shanxi side of XIngyiquan (I was Hebei). But I ended up with ten to 15 minutes was good but you had to know how to move that and maintain it and I began to feel moving was better. But it is much harder to learn the structure when moving so in the beginning of Xingyi training I still recommend at least 15 to 20 minutes per side, but never forget this needs to move and move fast

 

[Flying Crane]

It's not static for me & mine. It's dynamic. You have to move to use a stance. If you go only completely static, you are incredibly rooted. However the downer is that's all you know. Likewise if you never root, you may be quick as hell, but a strong wind will topple you. You have to learn a moving root. You can't do it standing like a statue or moving like leaf in the breeze. It's a mix of both. At first more static than not, but then it needs to equal out.

Your milage may vary...

Completely agreed, but you and I come from an unusual lineage.

I think the static, rooted training is important to build strength in the legs and to develop a relationship between your feet and the ground, but then the moving stance work is critical in learning how to apply that leg strength and to learn to push off the ground to drive technique.

Standing just to get stronger doesn't do a whole lot of good if you don't know what to do with that strength.

 

[ShotoNoob]

pick a posture and stand in it properly

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My first TMA instructor who started in TKD then went on to cross train other styles of TMA began you with this. However, and this is true of the traditional karate styles of mine, such a deep horse stance is not required.
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Movement that others speak about was provided by other components of the curriculum....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How do you folks define "stance training?' Could you describe the practice as you have experienced it?

(Just trying to get a common definition.)

IMO, some "stance training" is used to develop your body to fit into certain skill requirement. For example, here is a "stance training" and it's called "羅漢观天(Luo Han Guan Tian) Lou Han looks at sky":

Here is the application for it.

 

[Flying Crane]

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My first TMA instructor who started in TKD then went on to cross train other styles of TMA began you with this. However, and this is true of the traditional karate styles of mine, such a deep horse stance is not required.
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Movement that others speak about was provided by other components of the curriculum....

I used to believe that as well, until I received better instruction and I began to take stance training more seriously. Then I realized it simply isn't true. Focused training on stances will elevate everything else. But like anything , people get different mileage depending on many issues.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I used to believe that as well, until I received better instruction and I began to take stance training more seriously. Then I realized it simply isn't true. Focused training on stances will elevate everything else. But like anything , people get different mileage depending on many issues.

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I train traditional karate. I believe that traditional karate is much simpler than Kung fu(s). My first TMA instructor did in fact have a couple of exercises focused on stances. But that was not the real challenge in training stances, IMO. The illustration presents my understanding of the real challenge.
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In traditional karate, the BASIC stance training is incorporated into kihon technique training. But most don't want to spend the time with kihon, but do more 'interesting stuff' like moving around with sparring. According to the Chinese standards, the latter is blatantly wrong. By traditional karate standards it is clearly wrong.
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The quote highlighted speaks volumes about how to properly prepare your TMA marital base, IMO.

 

[Xue Sheng]

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My first TMA instructor who started in TKD then went on to cross train other styles of TMA began you with this. However, and this is true of the traditional karate styles of mine, such a deep horse stance is not required.
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Movement that others speak about was provided by other components of the curriculum....

just for the record, that horse stance (Ma bu) is nor karate, that is Wudangquan

 

[Xue Sheng]

I should also add that my Yang Taiji sifu is not big on is not big on stance training. He is not against it and when I talked to him about it his response was "go ahead pick a posture and stand in it if you like" But he fully believes and often says "its all in the form I you do it right".

The Chen I did does recommend stance training but I do not think it is as important as it Xingyiquan

 

[PhotonGuy]

Why is impractical to teach stances for the first six months?

Because this isn't China back some 1000 years ago.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Then don't train it if that is how you feel......

With all the places I've been to, none of them do just stance work for the first six months.

 

[ShotoNoob]

just for the record, that horse stance (Ma bu) is nor karate, that is Wudangquan

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horse stance in karate, horse stance in kung fu. The exact details of the style, the precise technicals, I leave to the more qualified, in this case you...............................
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That should start to come across....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

With all the places I've been to, none of them do just stance work for the first six months.

In the 1st 6 months, I know one CMA school will ask their students to do "front foot steps in, back foot follow" footwork only. In another CMA school, the teacher will only teach "single leg" and nothing else.

So in the 1st 6 month, if school

A - only teach "static horse stance",
B - only teach "front foot steps in, back foot follow" footwork,
C - only teach "single leg",

In the long run, which school will produce the best students?

 

[Tez3]

Because this isn't China back some 1000 years ago.

That's not an answer that's an excuse.

In life the basics are the important things, whether it's martial arts, medicine, building, driving cars etc etc etc. anything. If you don't get the basics right you are wasting your time. That is as true now as it was a thousand years ago or even five thousand.
Stances are very important, they are worth learning properly. In my karate Wado Ryu we have a lot of different stances for different things, they are different tools if you like. We have three 'horse riding' stances. In Judo your stance has to be correct to enable you to throw, you need to make sure your opponents stance is off to make that throw. In MMA you need to make sure your stance is correct so you are not an easy target for single/double leg take downs.
Whatever style of martial arts you train your stances are important and if someone can take that time to learn them really well, so that they become instinctive and natural they should do so. 'Impractical' can be used as an excuse, there's nothing stopping people doing this for a certain time everyday.

 

[Xue Sheng]

With all the places I've been to, none of them do just stance work for the first six months.

Not surprising, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who does "just" stance training for the first 6 months these days, and as far as I can tell no one in this thread said they did. They said "ancient times". Stance training is an important part of many Chinese Martial arts and if you don't like or approve of it...don't train in those places.... but in most places you find Hebei Xingyiquan if they are not training stance training to get you so at least 15 to 20 minutes per side (while also training you Wuxingquan) then they are not training you Xingyiquan...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Because this isn't China back some 1000 years ago.

It was still be done in China in my Taijiquan shifu's time and Wang Peishang made his students stand and BP Chan said you were not even a beginner in Xingyi if you could not stand in Santi 20 minutes a side.....

None of them are 1000 years old... you need to up your CMA history knowledge before making statements like this

And again, if you think it is impractical then don't do it..... but just because you say it is impractical does not mean it is nor does it mean anyone is going to listen

 

[Flying Crane]

Some of the older students who had trained with my Sifu in the past were joking that Sifu must be going soft because he wasn't making us stand in square horse for half an hour. A lot of this still happens in the modern age but many people simply do not want to put in the effort. It's a change in priorities, the modern age has too many distractions and people aren't willing to make the same kind of commitment to training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Some of the older students who had trained with my Sifu in the past were joking that Sifu must be going soft because he wasn't making us stand in square horse for half an hour. A lot of this still happens in the modern age but many people simply do not want to put in the effort. It's a change in priorities, the modern age has too many distractions and people aren't willing to make the same kind of commitment to training.

I have seen similar things with my sifu. He was never big on "Stance training" but he use to stop us in mid form, be that 'White Crane Spreads its Wings', ' Single whip', 'Needle at Sea Bottom', 'Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg' or 'Heel Kick' and then walk around the room, expecting you to hold your form, until he got there to see if you needed adjusting or not, and with classes that use to have a dozen or so people it sometimes took awhile. He does not do that anymore and none of the people there (other than me) have any idea he ever did.... but I'm not brave enough to tell him he is getting soft

 

[mograph]

I recommend that anyone (thankfully, not many on this thread as far as I can tell) who thinks that stance training is a waste of time try doing Zhan Zhuang for 40 minutes a number of times, with proper visualizations and miniscule force expressions. The result could not have been predicted from just watching someone do it. There's a point where it crosses over from just endurance and muscle training to a real understanding of how your body can integrate and resist force in a distributed way.

But of course, like most stance training, it's difficult and boring. But I wouldn't knock it until I've tried it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

In the 1st 6 months, I know one CMA school will ask their students to do "front foot steps in, back foot follow" footwork only. In another CMA school, the teacher will only teach "single leg" and nothing else.

So in the 1st 6 month, if school

A - only teach "static horse stance",
B - only teach "front foot steps in, back foot follow" footwork,
C - only teach "single leg",

In the long run, which school will produce the best students?

Any of those places would have a very high turnover rate. There is a high enough turnover rate in the martial arts as it is. So I would say D, none of the above since in order to produce students of any sort, you have to have students in the first place.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That's not an answer that's an excuse.

In life the basics are the important things, whether it's martial arts, medicine, building, driving cars etc etc etc. anything. If you don't get the basics right you are wasting your time. That is as true now as it was a thousand years ago or even five thousand.
Stances are very important, they are worth learning properly. In my karate Wado Ryu we have a lot of different stances for different things, they are different tools if you like. We have three 'horse riding' stances. In Judo your stance has to be correct to enable you to throw, you need to make sure your opponents stance is off to make that throw. In MMA you need to make sure your stance is correct so you are not an easy target for single/double leg take downs.
Whatever style of martial arts you train your stances are important and if someone can take that time to learn them really well, so that they become instinctive and natural they should do so. 'Impractical' can be used as an excuse, there's nothing stopping people doing this for a certain time everyday.

No its an answer, I don't use excuses. Stance training is important for your entire career in the martial arts. It doesn't matter if you've been doing it for a month, 6 months, 3 years or 20 years you should always train with stances. I never said that stance training isn't important or that a person should stop training in stances after they've reached a certain level. You are making a straw man argument. What Im saying is that its impractical to train in just stances and not even start to learn techniques for the first six months today because times are different today. In ancient China you wouldn't train in a martial arts school like you do today you would train in a monastery. With a monastery, they wouldn't let just anybody in and if they did take you in that meant you were making a commitment to live their full time and to stay there for years. So they wouldn't let just anybody in and they wouldn't let just anybody out. Today most people don't live in monasteries full time. Martial arts training today is anything like it was in the monasteries. Most martial arts schools will take in anybody off the street provided they can pay for the classes and people quit all the time. I seriously doubt most students will stick with it for six months if all they're doing is stances. You especially need to consider that a large part of the martial arts community consists of children and they are usually the ones that drop out the most. So the martial arts has a high enough turnover rate as it is, I seriously doubt teaching just stances for the six months will help with that.