Sports fighters in self defence

[Tez3]

nope i wrote they MIGHT be. see my mike tyson example.
i personally think that for example kickboxers as sport fighters are way better prepared for self defense than most karateka as self defense trainees are.

Just...NO. See previous answers from long time experienced martial artists ..... IT DEPENDS.

You don't know all kickboxers, you don't know all karateka, you don't know all SD people so the answer still is ....IT DEPENDS.

For me, it's endex on this thread. It's not interesting, it's not amusing and it's been done to death.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh sweet Geezuz, this again?

Look, anyone who thinks a competitor in heavy-contact sports events can't fight on the street, or can't adequately defend himself, is an idiot.

Likewise, anyone who thinks someone who does not compete in such events automatically cannot defend himself, is likewise an idiot.

Each of these types of people may have habits and training rituals that MIGHT be problematic, but I wouldn't bank on it.

Can we let the dead horse lie?

 

[MAfreak]

Just...NO. See previous answers from long time experienced martial artists ..... IT DEPENDS.

haha yes it depends but lets be honest, training fighting is more practical for self defense than training robo dance.

 

[marques]

Who thinks is a unbeatable is an idiot.

 

[MAfreak]

who thinks so? ever since ronda rouseys defeat it should be clear that no one is unbeatable.

 

[Flying Crane]

who thinks so? ever since ronda rouseys defeat it should be clear that no one is unbeatable.

You needed proof to tell you that nobody is unbeatable??

You believe that Ronda rousey's defeat is that proof??

Wow.

 

[drop bear]

nope i wrote they MIGHT be. see my mike tyson example.
i personally think that for example kickboxers as sport fighters are way better prepared for self defense than most karateka as self defense trainees are.

OK. Think about this as a concept.

Why do you feel out fighting,foot work and a counter punching style puts you at a disadvantage?

 

[Steve]

And I'm the one being accused of style bashing? What the heck? This is like an entire thread bashing not just one style, but an entire subsection of martial arts.

I appreciate Tez's responses. Very reasonable.

 

[Skullpunch]

Muhammad Ali wouldn't do as well in a street fight he even said as much mainly because his style is footwork and jabs not huge power shots

Might wanna rethink this one

I mean, if I were in a situation with that many people swarming me I'd probably rather have a prime Mike Tyson by my side but Muhammad Ali would get the job done just fine.

 

[JR 137]

I really get a kick out of it when people bring up eye gouges, groin grabs and fish hooks.

Do you think competitive fighters never heard of them before? If you know them, so do they.

Do you think they're the be all, end all techniques that'll end any and every fight? Hardly.

When I wrestled, I had all 3 of those attempted on me, several times unfortunately. Each time, I had my opponent on his back, or was ready to put them into a pinning combination. Guess what? I held on long enough to get the pin. Every time. If I had someone in a joint lock or neck crank, I'd easily have enough time to snap it. Only takes a split second to go from arm bar to snapped elbow.

Think you could beat a pro fighter in a no rules street fight? What makes you think you'd be able to hit them, let alone hit them as hard or harder than any opponent they've faced?

Yeah, you'll be able to knock Mohammed Ali out because he'd be dancing around while you unleashed your fists of fury on him.

Get real. A pro fighter has been hit harder than pretty much any of us here are capable of hitting (without weapons). They're faster than pretty much any of us here. The fight will be over before you knew you were in a fight.

Edit: After reading it, I want to make clear that this post isn't aimed at anyone specifically; it's a general post.

 

[MAfreak]

You needed proof to tell you that nobody is unbeatable??

You believe that Ronda rousey's defeat is that proof??

Wow.

OMG you don't have sense of humor and take this serious? wow where am i here??
its what i said before. internet experts like to make one look like an idiot, often without understanding right, what one wrote. also there was a grinning smilie. so, if you really aren't able to understand irony, its not a good sign for you.

to the others: we talked about possible dangers of HABITS and pure stress in self defense, not about lack of knowledge or stupidity. this discussion is turning around a circle...

 

[Tez3]

internet experts like to make one look like an idiot,

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that rather than being 'internet experts' many people who post here are actually real martial arts experts with real life experience and who actually train, teach and fight in various martial arts styles? Has it occurred to you that many here know what they are talking about, that this is a site for real martial artists encompassing many styles and experiences?

This subject is so indeterminate that there is rarely any meaningful discussion that can take place, we know that because it keeps coming up and keeps ending in the same way. It goes out with a dull, tiny whimper.

 

[Buka]

A pro fighter has been hit harder than pretty much any of us here are capable of hitting (without weapons). They're faster than pretty much any of us here. The fight will be over before you knew you were in a fight.

Edit: After reading it, I want to make clear that this post isn't aimed at anyone specifically; it's a general post.

Good points, and your heart's in the right place, which I appreciate greatly. I also agree with you.
As an aside ....if you're under forty, there's people here who were fighting professionally before you were born. (meant as a point, not an insult) And training pros, and refereeing them, working as judges for their bouts, working their corners, working as sparring partners, promoting their shows (hence, paying them) yada yada.

As for "being faster than folks here"...... there are some here who are so fast, if a person were to fight them and blink, that person would die in the dark.
(Oh, snap!)

And to all of us older dogs, I think we should keep in mind that not all forum members have been here as long. What may be rehashed debates to us, the old "not this again" are new discussions to them and anyone that comes here going forward. Not that Martial Artists are an opinionated group. Oh, no, not us.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I really get a kick out of it when people bring up eye gouges, groin grabs and fish hooks.

What gets me is that many people seem to think that these are the only things non-sport martial artists do that are not done in competition fights.

Just a general comment.

 

[Hanzou]

What gets me is that many people seem to think that these are the only things non-sport martial artists do that are not done in competition fights.

Just a general comment.

Well it ends up that way because non-sport MA practicioners constantly use those as ways to possibly stop sport/MMA fighter.

I mean, why learn all of those (simple) juijitsu escapes when all I need to stop a grappler is eye pokes, groin attacks and bites? That's the common argument I hear from traditional martial artists, and it's quite disturbing.

There's a very good reason why we developed so many grappling escapes in Bjj, and it's not because we didn't know how to use playground antics.

 

[JR 137]

Good points, and your heart's in the right place, which I appreciate greatly. I also agree with you.
As an aside ....if you're under forty, there's people here who were fighting professionally before you were born. (meant as a point, not an insult) And training pros, and refereeing them, working as judges for their bouts, working their corners, working as sparring partners, promoting their shows (hence, paying them) yada yada.

As for "being faster than folks here"...... there are some here who are so fast, if a person were to fight them and blink, that person would die in the dark.
(Oh, snap!)

And to all of us older dogs, I think we should keep in mind that not all forum members have been here as long. What may be rehashed debates to us, the old "not this again" are new discussions to them and anyone that comes here going forward. Not that Martial Artists are an opinionated group. Oh, no, not us.

I always look forward to your posts. You've got a great way of being right without being a know it all. Not too common.

I'll be 40 in June, so I guess I'm on the bubble with people here fighting professionally before I was born

I'm sure there are several people here who are lightning fast and/or can hit like a freight train. But I think the people here who can hold their own against pro fighters (I'm sure there are a few) are the exception and certainly not the rule. I am in no way shape or form the exception. Nor would I be no matter how hard I trained.

 

[JR 137]

What gets me is that many people seem to think that these are the only things non-sport martial artists do that are not done in competition fights.

Just a general comment.

Far too many TMAists point to those techniques and delusionaly say 'my style is too dangerous for MMA' or 'I'd easily get out of an arm bar by biting my opponent's leg.' Are some things too dangerous for MMA? Absolutely. But TMA don't have exclusivity on stuff that's too dangerous.

I'm a TMAist, so take that one as you will.

 

[Phobius]

Far too many TMAists point to those techniques and delusionaly say 'my style is too dangerous for MMA' or 'I'd easily get out of an arm bar by biting my opponent's leg.' Are some things too dangerous for MMA? Absolutely. But TMA don't have exclusivity on stuff that's too dangerous.

I'm a TMAist, so take that one as you will.

I think we have this on all sides. People training Krav Maga, MMA, boxing, BJJ, TMA.... you name it. They train for a bit every week and consider or compare themselves with something they know to represent their style. Emphasizing how great that makes them as martial artists.

What they lack to understand is this, training makes perfect. Nothing else.

You can train self defense (is it doable is another debate) for a couple of years a few hours a week. Thinking you know more about a self defense scenario than a guy training 4hours a day and spending half his time during sports training thinking about how to apply his teachings in self defense scenario. You actually think that guy knows less than the self defense guy training a few hours a week?

Or a guy with average condition being able to beat a pro sport fighter that is trained well enough to take beating and keep beating with full power for an extended amount of time.... come on.

Same goes the other way as well, you actually think your 1-2 hours of BJJ or MMA three times a week will save you against a TMA practitioner that spends 20-40 hours a week training conditioning and TMA?

Answer is simple, train harder than the person you are fighting.

Seen boxers coming into TMA class cocky as hell thinking they can beat everyone with ease, somehow often picking the wrong guy as first target to pummel and fail miserably. On the other hand I have seen the same guy play around with someone thinking their style will somehow magically protect them with some super technique.

Techniques does not make the martial artist, it is the training of techniques that has value. Sadly I think it is easier to find people training hard in boxing and MMA than in TMA. Guess it is the mindset of people this century picking TMA compared with other styles that is different.

 

[JR 137]

I think we have this on all sides. People training Krav Maga, MMA, boxing, BJJ, TMA.... you name it. They train for a bit every week and consider or compare themselves with something they know to represent their style. Emphasizing how great that makes them as martial artists.

What they lack to understand is this, training makes perfect. Nothing else.

You can train self defense (is it doable is another debate) for a couple of years a few hours a week. Thinking you know more about a self defense scenario than a guy training 4hours a day and spending half his time during sports training thinking about how to apply his teachings in self defense scenario. You actually think that guy knows less than the self defense guy training a few hours a week?

Or a guy with average condition being able to beat a pro sport fighter that is trained well enough to take beating and keep beating with full power for an extended amount of time.... come on.

Same goes the other way as well, you actually think your 1-2 hours of BJJ or MMA three times a week will save you against a TMA practitioner that spends 20-40 hours a week training conditioning and TMA?

Answer is simple, train harder than the person you are fighting.

Seen boxers coming into TMA class cocky as hell thinking they can beat everyone with ease, somehow often picking the wrong guy as first target to pummel and fail miserably. On the other hand I have seen the same guy play around with someone thinking their style will somehow magically protect them with some super technique.

Techniques does not make the martial artist, it is the training of techniques that has value. Sadly I think it is easier to find people training hard in boxing and MMA than in TMA. Guess it is the mindset of people this century picking TMA compared with other styles that is different.

Excellent post. I think that too many TMAists think technique/skill set is all they need. Yes, a lot of power comes from technique, but strength plays a huge part. Conditioning (body hardening/conditioning, not cardio (yet)) plays a huge part. Cardio conditioning plays a big part (even if the fight is less than a minute).

Technique is critical, but it's not the only piece to the puzzle. Boxers and MMAists know this. It gets proven to them day in and day out. Too many TMAists don't want to accept this.

For the record, I think the overwhelming majority of the TMAists here also accept this and train according, but we're the minority. For every TMAist that goes beyond the dojo, so to speak, there's scores of dojo warriors who think the hour they spend twice a week in the dojo is more than enough.

My former Sensei used to say the dojo isn't a training hall, it's a learning hall. If you're not putting the time in outside the dojo by doing bag work, flexibility and strength training, you're really limiting yourself. I totally agree.

 

[drop bear]

Techniques does not make the martial artist, it is the training of techniques that has value. Sadly I think it is easier to find people training hard in boxing and MMA than in TMA. Guess it is the mindset of people this century picking TMA compared with other styles that is different.

It depends. There is not a separation between mma and tma in that manner. There are people training in an ineffective way.

Some people are trying to find tricks or short cuts rather than train the basic stuff. They feel because more people train the basic stuff their tricks will catch them off guard.

It doesn't really work like that.

The dirty moves are a red flag that people are training in this less effective manner.