Sport Fighter

[skribs]

You have some strange ideas about how an actual grappling match happens, or how a fight happens.

You should take a break from dance class and try them out for context.

I mean, I have 3 years of wrestling experience and 6 years of hapkido experience. I've been in wrestling matches and real fights. For what it's worth, I've also done a lot of research on MMA and BJJ. I think I have at least a decent idea of how it works.

More should/would/could supported only by words and wishes.

If that's enough for you, have at it.

And yes, I understand there are conditions to make techniques work, and one of those might be speed of execution. That's just not relevant to the very specific claims @skribs made that I was addressing before he shifted his goalposts to a generality.

It's entirely relevant, because that's the whole point of what I was saying!

 

[Flying Crane]

Personally, I think people need to stop trying to tell other people what they (the other people) do. People can decide for themselves what it is they do. Stop labelling others.

Martial arts can have a sporting aspect to them. If someone likes doing that, all the power to them. If someone is not interested in that, All the power to them.

A good sport fighter can certainly defend himself.
Someone who trains without competition can defend himself.

These all-or-nothing positions really are silly. Trying to categorically claim that someone MUST train THIS way or THAT way in order to develop effective skills is ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Personally, I think people need to stop trying to tell other people what they (the other people) do. People can decide for themselves what it is they do. Stop labelling others.

Martial arts can have a sporting aspect to them. If someone likes doing that, all the power to them. If someone is not interested in that, All the power to them.

A good sport fighter can certainly defend himself.
Someone who trains without competition can defend himself.

These all-or-nothing positions really are silly. Trying to categorically claim that someone MUST train THIS way or THAT way in order to develop effective skills is ridiculous.

The question arises, how do they know that they actually can (defend themselves). And, what they tell their students when they haven't, proven that to themselves.

That is the basis of the issue. Most seem to just bypass the proof and say, yes I can.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The question arises, how do they know that they actually can (defend themselves). And, what they tell their students when they haven't, proven that to themselves.

That is the basis of the issue. Most seem to just bypass the proof and say, yes I can.

If you can use your hip throw to throw 100 different opponents on the mat, you will have confidence that the chance that you may throw your 101th opponent will be high.

Without the "sport" environment, where can you collect that data?

 

[Deleted member 34973]

If you can use your hip throw to throw 100 different opponents on the mat, you will have confidence that the chance that you may throw your 101th opponent will be high.

Without the "sport" environment, where can you collect that data?

Reality, it is the ONLY place where you will know 100% but, I also know, that a number of people, will classify it has insane and dangerous.

Up until that point though, the hip throw is hypothetical. As are all techniques, and that is ok.

It is ok to say "I don't know if it works in reality" there is nothing wrong with admitting that.

Although the sport arena is a decent place to test, it is simply a preliminary test. And, to say it is the only place to safely test it, is still putting it in the area of "I don't know"

 

[skribs]

Personally, I think people need to stop trying to tell other people what they (the other people) do. People can decide for themselves what it is they do. Stop labelling others.

Martial arts can have a sporting aspect to them. If someone likes doing that, all the power to them. If someone is not interested in that, All the power to them.

A good sport fighter can certainly defend himself.
Someone who trains without competition can defend himself.

These all-or-nothing positions really are silly. Trying to categorically claim that someone MUST train THIS way or THAT way in order to develop effective skills is ridiculous.

Categorizing something doesn't mean you're telling them how to train.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Reality, it is the ONLY place where you will know 100% but, I also know, that a number of people, will classify it has insane and dangerous.

Up until that point though, the hip throw is hypothetical. As are all techniques, and that is ok.

It is ok to say "I don't know if it works in reality" there is nothing wrong with admitting that.

Although the sport arena is a decent place to test, it is simply a preliminary test. And, to say it is the only place to safely test it, is still putting it in the area of "I don't know"

What do you think happens between hip throwing someone in a competition, where the opponent is trying to knock you out, versus doing the same thing in "reality"? Adrenaline, fear, stuff like that comes into play, but the technique itself is still the same. So you know whether or not the technique works-regardless of if you, personally, will be able to defend yourself in "reality".

 

[Flying Crane]

Categorizing something doesn't mean you're telling them how to train.

But we do see it a lot, here in the forums.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

What do you think happens between hip throwing someone in a competition, where the opponent is trying to knock you out, versus doing the same thing in "reality"? Adrenaline, fear, stuff like that comes into play, but the technique itself is still the same. So you know whether or not the technique works-regardless of if you, personally, will be able to defend yourself in "reality".

An assumption, is not proof. But, you do stand a good chance or the worst chance, when it actually occurs. It's a crap shoot t the worst time.

That is the point-"How as an individual, without personal experience, can you tell another, 'yes it works in reality' " or "it's the best chance"

It then goes back to, how do you know.

I guess that is really my point.

Should you be teaching a technique, that hasn't been proven by you, yourself and claiming that it works.

 

[Flying Crane]

The question arises, how do they know that they actually can (defend themselves). And, what they tell their students when they haven't, proven that to themselves.

That is the basis of the issue. Most seem to just bypass the proof and say, yes I can.

How do you know that they haven’t proven it to their satisfaction, in other ways?

Are you still trying to tell other people what they are doing?

 

[Flying Crane]

Reality, it is the ONLY place where you will know 100% but, I also know, that a number of people, will classify it has insane and dangerous.

Up until that point though, the hip throw is hypothetical. As are all techniques, and that is ok.

It is ok to say "I don't know if it works in reality" there is nothing wrong with admitting that.

Although the sport arena is a decent place to test, it is simply a preliminary test. And, to say it is the only place to safely test it, is still putting it in the area of "I don't know"

I can’t disagree with you here.

I will say though, that for most reasonable people, there will always be some gap between their training and an actual fight. Because deliberately looking for a fight, or worse yet, actively starting a fight, for the sake of honing your fighting skills and building your confidence, is insane and stupid and sociopathic. People go to prison for that behavior. As they should.

 

[Flying Crane]

An assumption, is not proof. But, you do stand a good chance or the worst chance, when it actually occurs. It's a crap shoot t the worst time.

That is the point-"How as an individual, without personal experience, can you tell another, 'yes it works in reality' " or "it's the best chance"

It then goes back to, how do you know.

I guess that is really my point.

Should you be teaching a technique, that hasn't been proven by you, yourself and claiming that it works.

yes.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

An assumption, is not proof. But, you do stand a good chance or the worst chance, when it actually occurs. It's a crap shoot t the worst time.

That is the point-"How as an individual, without personal experience, can you tell another, 'yes it works in reality' " or "it's the best chance"

It then goes back to, how do you know.

I guess that is really my point.

Should you be teaching a technique, that hasn't been proven by you, yourself and claiming that it works.

But by doing the technique on someone actively trying to beat me up, I have proven that it works. Like I said (or at least implied), the technique itself doesn't change, nor does it's effectiveness. The human body will still move in the same ways as it always has, regardless of the situation around where you choose to apply the technique. There are other factors that you have to teach for self-defense, but the techniques themselves are the same.

Now, if you want to add other stuff into the hypotheticals like saying the dudes on crack or PCP, that's a different story. But I could defend myself in reality with a technique, see that it worked, and tell everyone it's effective. Then someone else tries to use the same technique on a dude that's high and it doesn't work. That issue would still be there no matter what.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

And around and around we go.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

How do you know that they haven’t proven it to their satisfaction, in other ways?

Are you still trying to tell other people what they are doing?

Never once did I try to tell anyone what they are doing. I may be calling people out, put I have in no way discussed how they should train.

As always, when reality sets in, is when we know.

Why is it, that this is an issue in the martial Arts world. When in all other professions, you are required to prove your experience.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The question arises, how do they know that they actually can (defend themselves). And, what they tell their students when they haven't, proven that to themselves.

That is the basis of the issue. Most seem to just bypass the proof and say, yes I can.

Reality, it is the ONLY place where you will know 100% but, I also know, that a number of people, will classify it has insane and dangerous.

Up until that point though, the hip throw is hypothetical. As are all techniques, and that is ok.

It is ok to say "I don't know if it works in reality" there is nothing wrong with admitting that.

Although the sport arena is a decent place to test, it is simply a preliminary test. And, to say it is the only place to safely test it, is still putting it in the area of "I don't know"

This is actually a totally legitimate thought to consider. My conclusion has been that the question "can I defend myself" or "will my martial arts work in a real fight" is too broad to be answerable. Do I have the skills to defend myself from a 3-year-old armed with a banana? Yes! Do I have the skills to defend myself from an ambush by a gang of 15 armed thugs out for blood? Almost certainly not. There is a huge range of possibilities between those extremes and I can't say which of those scenarios I might someday encounter.

What I can do is identify those results of my training which I have tested often enough to have confidence in.

I know I can take a reasonably hard hit and keep fighting without panicking or losing my skills. (Not power shots from a heavyweight pro boxer, but a solid shots from a trained fighter.) Could that help in a self-defense situation? Sure. Not in every circumstance, but in many cases it will help.

I know I can land solid blows on an opponent who is defending my shots and trying to hit me back. Could that be useful? Sure. Will it always? Nope.

I know I'm physically and psychologically able to hit a trained fighter in my weight class hard enough to knock them down and even knock them out. How tough of an opponent could I do that to? I don't know. I've never fought a pro for real and I haven't knocked out enough people to have a really accurate gauge. Still, it could potentially be useful in a real fight.

I know that if I am knocked down or taken down to the ground that I can protect myself from strikes and grappling attacks and get back to my feet even when an opponent is trying to hold me down. I know that I can do this fairly reliably unless my opponent has skills and/or physical attributes well beyond 99.9% of the population. Could that be useful? Sure. Will it always? Nope.

I know that I have some skill in taking opponents to the ground, even when they are trying to hit me and stop the takedown. I also know that skill is mediocre compared to those I would consider true experts. I can take down most people, but not everybody and not right away. Could that be useful? Sure. Will it always? Nope.

I know that if I take someone to the ground that I can hold them down, beat them up, choke them unconscious or break their joints unless they have

skills and/or physical attributes well beyond 99% of the population. Could that be useful? Sure. Will it always? Nope.

I've know I've practiced sparring in a wide variety of environments and seem to be able to adapt on the fly without much effort. That could potentially be useful. I've never done it while going through a full adrenaline dump, though, so perhaps I wouldn't do as well in a real emergency.

I know I can demonstrate techniques from various arts for unarmed defense against a knife. I've even had some success in sparring against training knives, so it's possible I could be successful in a real situation. How likely is that? I honestly don't know, but I wouldn't want to bet on it. I've had failures along with successes in training and knives are ideal ambush weapons which would negate most of my techniques. (Not to mention the extra adrenaline that a deadly weapon brings to the situation.)

I've done enough sparring against multiple opponents to think that I might do okay against multiple (unarmed) attackers if they were not tough, skilled or determined. If they meet one of those criteria, then I still have a chance. If they meet two of those criteria then things get very iffy. If they meet all three, then I better hope I can outrun them. Since I don't think I can necessarily tell at the outset of an encounter which qualifiers might apply, I'm going to opt for skedaddling if at all possible.

I know I've had some success in de-escalating and avoiding potential violent situations in real life. I think my martial arts training has helped with that, but since I have no laboratory for testing that, I honestly don't know how reliable those skills are or how much my training has contributed.

Based on the above, could I defend myself in a real assault? In some situations, yes. In others, no. In others, maybe.


As a side note, I've been in a few street fights/self-defense situations and I've been in a few sport fights. The sport fights were much more demanding and brutal (both physically and psychologically) than the "real" fights. That doesn't necessarily mean much. In some cases the outcomes of a street fight could be much worse. I've been lucky enough to have never been in that situation.​

 

[Deleted member 34973]

By the way, I have never picked a fight in my life. But, people do need protection, and there is an opportunity to walk the talk, for a Martial Artist.

I do agree with desecalation, In my experience, I have found that their was no real intent for fighting, and that is usually why it could be stopped in the first place.

Just my personal experience.

 

[Flying Crane]

Never once did I try to tell anyone what they are doing. I may be calling people out, put I have in no way discussed how they should train.

As always, when reality sets in, is when we know.

Why is it, that this is an issue in the martial Arts world. When in all other professions, you are required to prove your experience.

See my post number 71 in this thread.

 

[dvcochran]

The biggest irony of the whole paintball analogy is that the US Army uses paintball in training for real combat.



Paintball enhances realism in Army Reserve unit's training

That is true but it is used to supplement all the other rigorous training. It would never work well on its own.

 

[dvcochran]

Reality, it is the ONLY place where you will know 100% but, I also know, that a number of people, will classify it has insane and dangerous.

Up until that point though, the hip throw is hypothetical. As are all techniques, and that is ok.

It is ok to say "I don't know if it works in reality" there is nothing wrong with admitting that.

Although the sport arena is a decent place to test, it is simply a preliminary test. And, to say it is the only place to safely test it, is still putting it in the area of "I don't know"

Essentially what @Kung Fu Wang is saying is practice to increase you percentage of success. A SD situation is never 100%.