Spinning Side Kick works in close

[Marginal]

I'm not too comfy with talking about a pattern I haven't learned yet, but TW, I believe this is a slight terminology snag rather than an illustration of the difference in side kick execution between orgs in this case. The main kick that comes to mind from watching the pattern is the side pressing kick in the opening movements. However, it's execution and purpose differs from a side piercing kick (which is what it sounds like you're describing as what you want to do rather than the prescribed kick in Po Eun).

A few differences as I understand the kick:

-Side pressing kick's primary target is the knee
-Kick's delivered with the supporting leg locked out
-Object's displacement rather than penetration

Side piercing kicks appear in earlier patterns like Won Hyo, Yul Guk, Joon Gun, Hwa Rang.... etc, all of which involve the movement of the supporting leg you've described. The side piercing kick's the kick that's commonly called the side kick, one of the basic bread n' butter kicks. So it's not the ITF version of the side kick you're executing in Po Eun. (At least by ITF standards)

http://www.itf-information.com/patterns12.htm

There's the pattern description. A typical side piercing kick's executed pretty much like Freep's description of his friend's side kick.

 

[FearlessFreep]

We also heel up because if you have a horizontal foot, the whole foot lands and the force is dissipated over the length of the foot instead of the ball of the heel.

Quick note but with the foot horizontal on the sidekick, the striking surfaces is sometimes the heel but ideally it's the back of the blade edge of the foot...the outside ridge of the foot from the heel to about halfway down the foot. A bit different than hitting with the heel directly but much sharper and more penetrating than hitting with the whole foot. If striking with the heel is a 'palm heel strike of the foot', this is a 'knife hand strike of the foot'

 

[Han-Mi]

Ya, that's a good one. I use it all the time, one of my favorites.

 

[TigerWoman]

We also heel up because if you have a horizontal foot, the whole foot lands and the force is dissipated over the length of the foot instead of the ball of the heel.

Quick note but with the foot horizontal on the sidekick, the striking surfaces is sometimes the heel but ideally it's the back of the blade edge of the foot...the outside ridge of the foot from the heel to about halfway down the foot. A bit different than hitting with the heel directly but much sharper and more penetrating than hitting with the whole foot. If striking with the heel is a 'palm heel strike of the foot', this is a 'knife hand strike of the foot'

Thanks for the description Marginal, do you always rotate the foot to face back? We don't lock out the leg when kicking.

Jay, that's a new one for me. My instructor doesn't teach that but it sounds feasible to use more of the foot. If its the edge though, isn't it a crescent kick which is like a knife too and uses the edge of the foot-or maybe more of my terminology for it. We should have dictionary description, picture, et al of each kick so when we talk it isn't so confusing! TW

 

[Marginal]

Thanks for the description Marginal, do you always rotate the foot to face back? We don't lock out the leg when kicking.

We don't rotate on a side pressing kick. Supporting leg's not locked out as a rule except in the case of side pressing since it has a fairly specialized purpose. (Knee destruction) On a side piercing kick, the foot does rotate so your supporting heel's facing the target, and your supporting leg's bent.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Jay, that's a new one for me. My instructor doesn't teach that but it sounds feasible to use more of the foot.

Or less of the foot, as the case may be One motivation behind it is that it makes a better weapon against certain targets. Think about a side-kick to the knee or the thigh. Turning the foot downward and striking with the heel seems a bit tricky to me, especially trying to get it *just right* to hit a round limb with a round heel. With the horizontal foot, you can strike the knife edge of the foot into the muscle of the thigh or into just above the patella a bit easier. It's important to strike, though, with the back half of the knife edge (outer edge) of the foot, not down near the toes.

Anyway, when I asked about the differences between a spinning side-kick and a spinning back kick, one difference I was told was speed but another was that the different striking surfaces, or positioning, of the weapon, were more and less effective against different targets, so it really depended on what you were trying to do. A vertical strike with the heel versus a horizontal strike with the blade match up differently against different target areas and body parts.

If its the edge though, isn't it a crescent kick which is like a knife too and uses the edge of the foot-or maybe more of my terminology for it. We should have dictionary description, picture, et al of each kick so when we talk it isn't so confusing!

No kidding!!

My understanding of a crescent kick is that it's a lot like a front-kick except instead of coming straight up and hitting with the ball of the foot, you come up in an arc and hit with the side of the foot. Depending on which direction you arc you can either hit with the outside or the inside of the foot. I know there is a spinning crescent kick, but I've only done it with my friend, not actually been taught it, but it seems to me to strike with the side of the foot as well. I think the difference between the crescent kick strike and the side-kick strike is that with the crescent kick, you swing the foot into the target and with the side-kick, you push the foot into the target.

 

[shesulsa]

Please forgive my interjection as I'm not TKD.

Would you say that kicking with the blade of the foot (the outside edge) has a particular application that may differ from the heel thrust? For instance, the blade of the foot might be appropriate for strking to the throat, whereas the ball of the foot might be used to the nose in a chin kick (not a side kick at all) and the thrusting of the heel would work very well at joints, trunk, etc.

 

[TigerWoman]

I should ask my instructor about that knife sidekick...though he's wondering where I get all my questions... I would have to say though I'm weaker on the edge of the foot, no callus there! For crescents, ours are usually at head level but the snap we use is less of a swing but more like a quick chop. The swing is easier as the momentum takes your leg up. The snap is harder to train bringing your leg up, knee up straighter (but angled to the side before the strike) and have the power to snap it horizontally across. So I could snap it into a knee or leg just as well.

But, I would rather sidekick a knee as we do accuracy work all the time, and I know that knee will go down. Spinning sidekick is our third required break for green belt so by black it is quite elemental. If I'm in position for that to knee, I'm in position for a sidekick easy without the spin. But I could see the knife sidekick for a side thigh strike if you had the position for it and a hard round kick was out so will investigate it. Thanks. TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

Would you say that kicking with the blade of the foot (the outside edge) has a particular application that may differ from the heel thrust?

Exactly what I was saying

 

[TigerWoman]

Please forgive my interjection as I'm not TKD.

Would you say that kicking with the blade of the foot (the outside edge) has a particular application that may differ from the heel thrust? For instance, the blade of the foot might be appropriate for strking to the throat, whereas the ball of the foot might be used to the nose in a chin kick (not a side kick at all) and the thrusting of the heel would work very well at joints, trunk, etc.

I guess I already posted about the blade having a better effect possibly for the thigh in some cases. Yes, the ball, like in a front kick to the chin or nose is effective. Or a sidekick to the same is also effective. The heel is like Marginal said, piercing, breaking joints and also if used for a strike to the solar plexus or kidneys, debilitating at least. TW

 

[shesulsa]

Sorry, folks! I need to do less scanning and more reading! LOL!

 

[Marginal]

Please forgive my interjection as I'm not TKD.

Would you say that kicking with the blade of the foot (the outside edge) has a particular application that may differ from the heel thrust? For instance, the blade of the foot might be appropriate for strking to the throat, whereas the ball of the foot might be used to the nose in a chin kick (not a side kick at all) and the thrusting of the heel would work very well at joints, trunk, etc.

In relation to the side kick, the footsword is considered the primary tool in my org, but that's the area immediately next to the heel. It's the outside edge, but probably only about an inch or and inch and a half of area measured from the heel. There's not really a great enough difference in the striking surface (it's narrower, but plenty sturdy) in that respect to really get into picking differing targets for the heel in cases where the footsword is called for. The main difference there would come up in respect to target selection in respect to what kick's being thrown. (Back kick vs side piercing for example.)

As a point of interest, if you can get a look Gen Choi's Taekwon Do encyclopedia, there is an extensive table that shows the relative strengths of each attack and its respective tool(s) for a given job/target.

 

[FearlessFreep]

It's the outside edge, but probably only about an inch or and inch and a half of area measured from the heel. There's not really a great enough difference in the striking surface (it's narrower, but plenty sturdy)..

Yeah, I was trying to describe it as such. You're pretty much aiming with the heel but angling the foot over so you hit with the side of the heel along the edge of the foot rather than the ball/roundness of the bottom of the heel.

 

[TigerWoman]

Angling it over sounds like what we do for spin heel anyway. Not much of a difference. I asked my instructor at noon class. He said that edge is too weak, can break the foot, meaning further up than two inches from the heel. He won't teach that. I thought it might be good for a soft target but couldn't get the edge of my foot to the throat on Bob well, unless I made him way short. so :idunno: TW

 

[Whitebelt]

I just tried the spinning side kick in an elimination circle sparing thingy and it was grate. It let me stay on for 6 rounds pinned up on the side!

 

[Zepp]

I've been off of MT for a while, so I'm a bit of a latecomer to this thread. But there is one thing I thought I could add.

In my experience, spinning kicks (side kicks and back kicks included) don't tend work very well unless you and your opponent are at an ideal range. Too far away, and they'll see the spin coming and be miles away before your kick gets there. Too close, and it's too easy to jam. If you can make it work on more than a few occasions, you've got skill.

 

[Marginal]

In my experience, spinning kicks (side kicks and back kicks included) don't tend work very well unless you and your opponent are at an ideal range. Too far away, and they'll see the spin coming and be miles away before your kick gets there. Too close, and it's too easy to jam. If you can make it work on more than a few occasions, you've got skill.

Shh... Suggesting that a spinning side kick's in any way jammable's apparently worthy of a passive-agressive anon rep ding.

 

[MichiganTKD]

He is correct. Generally, a good spinning kick works only about once or twice per match. After that, your opponent can pick up on it and defend against it. It's one thing if you use it sparingly and strategically. It's another if it's your favorite technique and you use it all the time. Then it won't work.

 

[Zepp]

Shh... Suggesting that a spinning side kick's in any way jammable's apparently worthy of a passive-agressive anon rep ding.

My rep. can take it.