dvcochran
Grandmaster
Oops, that was supposed to say "certainly NOT good enough".
Spinning heel kick vs spinning hook kick
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Ivan
Black Belt
I have no idea what a reverse turning kick is
skribs
Grandmaster
It's actually easier to execute, because you're able to spin a lot faster.
skribs
Grandmaster
Every school has different names for different kicks. Take it up locally with what you're being taught. All that's gonna happen here is a lot of arguing over what words mean.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
It is a term perhaps unique to Chang Hon. "Turning Kick" is what many people refer to as "Roundhouse" although in the Chang Hon System there is a "Turning kick" done to target at the side front, and a "Side Turning Kick" where you turn more sideways to a target directly ahead as you typically do in sparring. "Reverse Turning" Turns in the reverse or opposite direction. with the contact surface (Called the "Tool" in the system) being the back of the heel (Called Heel in the system as opposed to bottom of the heel which the system calls "Back Sole") if the foot is flexed 90 degrees or so in relation to the leg, or with foot extended the ball of the foot can be used - Hope this helps.
Gwai Lo Dan
3rd Black Belt
I've been practising this one on the heavy bag. It's quite fun given that I come from WT where low kicks are not allowed.
Not sure what I would call it though! When I think "wheel kick" I think low to high, like a wheel.
Not sure what I would call it though! When I think "wheel kick" I think low to high, like a wheel.
Fungus
Black Belt
I was a bout to start a new thread in the karate subforum but noticed there was an old thread on this already.
Regardless of how different styles NAME the kicks, the "wheel kick" and the "spinning hook kick" are different and have pros and cons.
My question originates from practicing on the heavy back, and while it's known that that spinning hook kick is faster, and can get above the guard, rather than through it, if aimed at the head, and the wheel kick is more powerful (but slower)....
But exactly HOW powerful can a spinning hook kick get? I know one can debate how much power is needed, but in this case I am focusing not on kicking the head, but only power(KO potential) kicks to body or leg. Say, leg or liver kicks.
I personally feel that the difference in power between the wheel kick and the spinning hook kick is massive. Also, if you practive power kicks, you will damage your knee if you hyperextend the ned upon impact (this is not sometihng you discover if you just train on kicking pads, but if you do it on the heavu bag you feel it), ang I find it to be much harder to time the kick to hook back after extension when you do the hook kick, vs wheel kick.
I even doubt that a spinnig hook kick to the body on a conditioned fighter would be questionalbe as a KO technique, as the power is too low, and the chance of injuring the knee seems high if the timing is just slightly off?
Spinning hook kick is more difficuly to exectute to avoid hyperextension, but how powerful can in get still as compare to a wheel kick where you put your body weght into it? They way I do these on heavy bag, I step into the kick and sping at the same time, so I don't just rely on the sping, but I try to put my body weight into it. This is very hard to with spin kick for me at least, and when I try it often the leg extension is not good at impact.
What do you guys that think if one is looking for a KO body kick?
Regardless of how different styles NAME the kicks, the "wheel kick" and the "spinning hook kick" are different and have pros and cons.
My question originates from practicing on the heavy back, and while it's known that that spinning hook kick is faster, and can get above the guard, rather than through it, if aimed at the head, and the wheel kick is more powerful (but slower)....
But exactly HOW powerful can a spinning hook kick get? I know one can debate how much power is needed, but in this case I am focusing not on kicking the head, but only power(KO potential) kicks to body or leg. Say, leg or liver kicks.
I personally feel that the difference in power between the wheel kick and the spinning hook kick is massive. Also, if you practive power kicks, you will damage your knee if you hyperextend the ned upon impact (this is not sometihng you discover if you just train on kicking pads, but if you do it on the heavu bag you feel it), ang I find it to be much harder to time the kick to hook back after extension when you do the hook kick, vs wheel kick.
I even doubt that a spinnig hook kick to the body on a conditioned fighter would be questionalbe as a KO technique, as the power is too low, and the chance of injuring the knee seems high if the timing is just slightly off?
Spinning hook kick is more difficuly to exectute to avoid hyperextension, but how powerful can in get still as compare to a wheel kick where you put your body weght into it? They way I do these on heavy bag, I step into the kick and sping at the same time, so I don't just rely on the sping, but I try to put my body weight into it. This is very hard to with spin kick for me at least, and when I try it often the leg extension is not good at impact.
What do you guys that think if one is looking for a KO body kick?
Fungus
Black Belt
Reading the differing terminolgoy again, i want to define what I meant by spiining hook kick vs wheel kick. spinning hook kick, you chamber as you turn (which makes the turn faster) then you extend and hook just in time for the targer. But this requiresm more timiing, and as you extend and hook, I'd say you loose some momentum too.
The wheelkick does not chamber, the leg is at least almost straight (which makes it slower as you need to add more energy into the spin), you just turn and swing your leg as a bat into the target (maybe also adding some body weight, just like you do on a normal muy thai roundhouse) and at the end, you still hook a tiny bit (as to not hit with hyperextension, this is bad).
(wether you hit with the heel or the sole is an independ question, but I personally ONLY kick with my heel, otherwise it's just a slap)
The wheelkick does not chamber, the leg is at least almost straight (which makes it slower as you need to add more energy into the spin), you just turn and swing your leg as a bat into the target (maybe also adding some body weight, just like you do on a normal muy thai roundhouse) and at the end, you still hook a tiny bit (as to not hit with hyperextension, this is bad).
(wether you hit with the heel or the sole is an independ question, but I personally ONLY kick with my heel, otherwise it's just a slap)
I have never been able to get a KO with either kick to the body.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
You could just as well ask about a KO to the body with a hand technique. A liver shot is probably one of the most common Hand techniques to the Body that results in a KO but this is not to say it is at all common.
Other issues such as knee hyper extension can be avoided if you train to know have the knee locked out but perhaps 10-15 degree bend at impact.
As far as power goes, I have seen reverse Hooking Kicks do a suspended break with 2 standard 1 x 12 #2 Pine boards (As opposed to the BS demo boards ) . That would seem to be significant power. I have seen the reverse Turning (Spinning Heel Kick break a larger number of boards but they were firmly supported. )
HighKick
Master Black Belt
I have three (maybe four, I forget) recorded KO's from a spinning hook kick to the body. I know for certain two of them broke ribs. To explain, some of this was an exploitation of the WT rules back in the day. The scoring area was/is near the same back in my competition days but the approved hogu's were controlled looser, and some did not fully wrap around to the back of the body. Two of the KO's were spinning hook kicks right on the short rib. The hook can be a devastating kick to the body or head, thrown from closer in than a wheel, and can be thrown a different angles.
As far as the mechanics of the two kicks. I always used a wheel kick from distance and as a counter when my opponent was off balance or out of position. I used a hook kick (a lot) from inside and to the side of my opponent as an initial kick or as part of a combo, but seldom as a counter.
Hooks too often are not trained/practice correctly. Remember, they are a Circular kick with a parabolic shape, so the leg (and head or body part) returns back to you on the geometric trajectory. Too often, people do the footwork incorrectly and get 'stuck' in the kick.
I have seen more than a few matches ended with one body shot hook kick at the start of a match.
Absolutely do NOT practice the wheel kick on a heavy bag for the reasons you describe. A hook would be safer on the heavy bag, but I can see it being hard on the kicking hip.
IMHO, a heavy bag should only be used for linear kicks/strikes.
Fungus
Black Belt
Thanks for the comments, I should have mentioned that by KO I didn't mean knock someone unconscious, I just meant disabling them from continuing the fight for some period, typically a few seconds at leat, by going down in bad pain or similar. Like a liver punch would do.
Also the spinning back kick would be even more power. And a good hook to the liver is great, no question, and alot faster.
But I was thinking specifically about the two spin kick versions either to leg or body. It's because I've been focusing my own training on them lately. Training everything at once, is hard, so i have periods where i try to improve certain things, and this made me think about this.
(I'm not suggesting they are they best way to KO, I think they are not. )
Also the spinning back kick would be even more power. And a good hook to the liver is great, no question, and alot faster.
But I was thinking specifically about the two spin kick versions either to leg or body. It's because I've been focusing my own training on them lately. Training everything at once, is hard, so i have periods where i try to improve certain things, and this made me think about this.
(I'm not suggesting they are they best way to KO, I think they are not. )
HighKick
Master Black Belt
It is a great mental exercise and a great way to train.
I only offered my past experience as an example, nothing else. The other recorded KO's were as you described, the opponent went down in pain and did not continue (it was four).
I have a different way of processing kicks since I am an engineer and everything is 'math'. I do agree a linear kick like a back kick is stronger for moving greater mass. But I believe a rotational kick is stronger for making greater power/penetration to a small area (albeit more difficult). Hence the reason more injuries caused with the heel are from rotational kicks.
For example, the bigger power breaks are done with a linear kick. The faster, more complex or difficult breaks are done with a rotational kick (no, I am not a fan of flashy breaks).
It sounds like you have a good handle on your training. Keep it up.
Fungus
Black Belt
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Hmm from these I suspect that we have some misunderstanding. I see the early part of the thread was about what the kicks are called. Perhaps I wasn't clear.
When I train these kicks (unlike in kihon) I do not care about the kihon forms. I let power and balance as i get feedback from the sack guide me. If I can give the sack a good power, maintain balance and not feel any back joints, then it's good. Then I try to work on the speed.
What I call wheelkick, has the same range as the spinning hook kick. That you bend the leg before impact to get more power and protect your knee I do in both versions. That isn't the difference in what I mention.
There is only one difference between the spinning kicks for me, the spinning hook kick starts by chambering, and then you extend the kick say at 45 degrees and hook immediately before target. It spins faster. The wheel kicks STARTS with a roughly extended leg (but still relaxed) and it rotates all they way from the back to the target, acquiring more momentum (but it's slower), but in the end, just like the hoook kick I "hook" to make sure I do not have straight leg on impact.
To make sure your knee is find, the legt is slightly bent in impact. the degree of bending can be adjusted to the target distance.
What I find important is to keep the knees extension in line with impact, so there is no sideway force on the knee. Same as when doing power roundhouse kicks. Normally diagnal, but if kicking the leg it can even by slighlty downward, if kicking the lower rib, it cna be sligtly up.
Here is a decent explanation in line with what I mean
When I trained this lately, I often train only roundhouse on the bag, and i train combos such as 2 roundhouse, leg, spleen, leg, spleen then leg, then leg, reverse wheel to leg or liver to opposite side. What I trained to make this with balance, power and speed. And I seem to never get much power into the spinning hook, but the spinning wheel is good (but a but slower), there is why i train the combos with the faint.
Fungus
Black Belt
I have a similar way of analysing things, as I'm a physicist, but I try to adapt things to my limitations. The good thing about heavy bag, is that you get simply honest feedback of what is in balance while hitting resistance. I can't get this beedback from kicking in the air, or kicking pads (which as basically just an aim).
The back kicks is my favourite, but a wheel kick is nice when the opponen is not in a squared stance. Also for leg kicks. I feel I also need to learn more than only the back kick, or othrewise the opponents quickly decode my strategy. I also train the spinning crescent kick, this is the only kick I can do reasonably to the head, and it works in very close range, but you easily loose balance, so I use it sparsely just to surprise.
If you can, try using the spinning back kick first, under their guard. Next series try a spinning side kick, but aim high, to the chest or face. They look similar before the kick if you can do them fast enough.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
Air kicks are no bueno unless they are slow or low power to work on balance.
As long as a person can do them well, you cannot not have too many kicks in your tool bag.
Fungus
Black Belt
I think I can got the spinning back kick reasonably well, I tried on this more in the past, and the reason I use it sparesely i sparring is that it can be devastating, so i often make ti slower than i could, to get my friends to react. The turn has come to improve the spinning wheel better. The main problem has been that when I'm too slow, I get a counter in my back while turning. This is why I've been testing out both the faster and the power powerful versions. I probably end up opting for power and rely on feints rather than speed. As I am a bit heavier and slower.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Due to distance traveled it is optimal to set up rear leg kicks with lead leg / hand techniques.
Fungus
Black Belt
Yes, I've got a few combos that I can to reasonably. And of course some combos work with both back kick, turning side kick or spinning wheel, depending on target and opponent stance. The main purpose of my spinning wheel kick is the legs. Wheel kick to the liver is very hight change of getting the leg trapped (and that is bad for my back). Very few will catch a leg kick unless it's a grappler of course, then any limb is an opportunity
