spin off of "who's against this" thread --

[tradrockrat]

I don't want to hijack the other thread so here is my question for discussion.

In the other thread it was mentioned that Prison no longer serves as a deterent to crime, but it is also clear through the gross numbers of repeat offenders that prison doesn't rehabilitate either, so my question is a frustrated, "What in the hell is prison for if it's not actually accomplishing anything, and how can we change this?"

My personal opinion is harsh and rather punative. I think that prisons should be hard labor camps where prisoners are too busy working their sentence off to hang out at the weights and discuss new ways of disarming cops or teach each other about the modern advances in B and E during a movie and popcorn. The profits of the labor go to pay the salaries of the guards, tools, food, etc with any remaining costs picked up by the government. I think that the government (read- our tax money) would go alot farther this way and we'd get something positive out of what is now nothing but a drain on our society. JMHO

And yes - I am a proponent of capital punishment.

 

[14 Kempo]

I don't want to hijack the other thread so here is my question for discussion.

In the other thread it was mentioned that Prison no longer serves as a deterent to crime, but it is also clear through the gross numbers of repeat offenders that prison doesn't rehabilitate either, so my question is a frustrated, "What in the hell is prison for if it's not actually accomplishing anything, and how can we change this?"

My personal opinion is harsh and rather punative. I think that prisons should be hard labor camps where prisoners are too busy working their sentence off to hang out at the weights and discuss new ways of disarming cops or teach each other about the modern advances in B and E during a movie and popcorn. The profits of the labor go to pay the salaries of the guards, tools, food, etc with any remaining costs picked up by the government. I think that the government (read- our tax money) would go alot farther this way and we'd get something positive out of what is now nothing but a drain on our society. JMHO

And yes - I am a proponent of capital punishment.

I agree, our prison system, although I would never want to be within it, is no longer a deterent to most criminal types. However, we have that good ole ACLU and other organizations that want to protect those that hurt others. And as a closer, I too am for capital punishment.

 

[Bigshadow]

I can envision a prison facility where the inmates must grow their own food (farm by hand), any electric and water needs are to be generate on the backs of the inmate (ie, a carousel that charges an electrical system, and the same to pump water into a water tower for gravity pressured water system). All inmates must work and toil to keep the facility functional.

That is for the ones that don't get sent to the New Devil's island!

 

[tradrockrat]

works for me!

 

[jks9199]

Prison today is primarily about incapicitation. While someone's locked up -- they can't prey on the public.

In theory...

The truth is that it's complicated. Too many gang leaders (Larry Hoover, Tookie Williams, the entire Mexican Mafia, etc) have no troubles running their gangs through the prison walls. Then there are scams concocted in & by prisoners...

But at least there's some impediment to prisoners preying on the public.

I did like an idea I heard about 20 or more years ago...

Dump 'em all some place 50 miles from nowhere, with shovels, axes, etc. If they want to be warm... they build shelter, cut wood, and so on. If they want to eat... they grow food. If they want to leave... good luck surviving to get close enough to anything.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I can envision a prison facility where the inmates must grow their own food (farm by hand), any electric and water needs are to be generate on the backs of the inmate (ie, a carousel that charges an electrical system, and the same to pump water into a water tower for gravity pressured water system). All inmates must work and toil to keep the facility functional.

That is for the ones that don't get sent to the New Devil's island!

Hard to argue with that Dave!

 

[KempoGuy06]

I can envision a prison facility where the inmates must grow their own food (farm by hand), any electric and water needs are to be generate on the backs of the inmate (ie, a carousel that charges an electrical system, and the same to pump water into a water tower for gravity pressured water system). All inmates must work and toil to keep the facility functional.

That is for the ones that don't get sent to the New Devil's island!

+1 for a great idea.

I also support capital punishment, but I dont support that fact that it costs so much.

B

 

[tradrockrat]

I also support capital punishment, but I dont support that fact that it costs so much.

B

I agree with you on this for sure - It should be one appeal and six months to have that appeal heard. After that - you're next in line, enjoy your dinner.

 

[Bigshadow]

I am for capital punishment as well. I know I was saying some outlandish things in the other thread, it was partly just being silly. I would not want to be the one to dole out that kind of punishment, but I actually like the Island idea for the most heinous of criminals and the self supporting prison system where the prisoners have to work for everything they get.

 

[KempoGuy06]

I agree with you on this for sure - It should be one appeal and six months to have that appeal heard. After that - you're next in line, enjoy your dinner.

I mean really, how much is a decent gun and a box of bullets, 600-700 bucks? Thats all they have to spend. None of this crap about licensed doctors, and humane punishments, they have killed in cold blood they should expect nothing else. Also the insanity plea is anotheer huge issue I hate, this is probably one of the most rediculous things our justice system has ever implemented

B

 

[Empty Hands]

In the other thread it was mentioned that Prison no longer serves as a deterent to crime, but it is also clear through the gross numbers of repeat offenders that prison doesn't rehabilitate either...

Sure it is, and does. Prison does mainly deter those with something to lose (i.e. not dirt poor career criminals), but it is unarguable there is deterrence to some level. I can think of a number of illegal acts I would not hesitate to commit (i.e. take certain drugs, pop someone in the nose when they are begging for it) if there was no sanction for it. As for rehabilitation, it may not be due to the prison itself, but recidivism rates are not 100% - more like 40% http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/csot/csot_trecidivism.shtm. While certainly not ideal, the majority of those who go to prison do not re-offend.

My personal opinion is harsh and rather punative.

The problem is, the Western world has tried that before. We reformed our system for a good reason - the punishments were immensely harsh, and they did not stop crime. We can also look to the parts of the world that still have harsh criminal penalties, and in general their crime rates are equal to or higher than the Western world. ISTM that the wealth of the countries in question has more to do with lowered crime rates than harsh punishments. So why should we go back to a system we already abandoned? Why do you expect a different result this time?

And yes - I am a proponent of capital punishment.

I have nothing against capital punishment in principal. However, it is clear that our justice system is immensely flawed, and the chances of executing an innocent person are too high for me to endorse capital punishment in our system today. As a trained laboratory scientist, I am absolutely shocked by the shabby conditions and poorly trained technicians in our crime labs. It is also clear from the actions of the Innocence Project, who DNA test people on death row, that many innocent people are being sentenced to death http://www.innocenceproject.org/news/National-View.php.

The state of the system even prompted the Republican governor of Illinois to put a moratorium on the death penalty http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/01/31/illinois.executions.02/.

 

[Empty Hands]

None of this crap about licensed doctors, and humane punishments, they have killed in cold blood they should expect nothing else.

So we can be just like they are? Kill like they do? No thanks.

Also the insanity plea is anotheer huge issue I hate, this is probably one of the most rediculous things our justice system has ever implemented

I agree that the defense can be abused, any defense can. However, criminal intent (mens rea) is an important part of our justice system. It is why we don't convict for murder when the death was accidental, or why we don't convict small children if they accidentally kill someone. Thus, why should we convict someone who literally cannot tell fantasy from reality (psychosis) and had no criminal intent? Commitment will do more good in that case than prison.

 

[Tames D]

I agree with you on this for sure - It should be one appeal and six months to have that appeal heard. After that - you're next in line, enjoy your dinner.

I don't agree with the appeal process. If you are convicted lawfully in a court of law, you shouldn't get an appeal. It should be a done deal.

 

[JBrainard]

Thank you Empty Hands for the eloquent counterpoint. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I don't agree with the appeal process. If you are convicted lawfully in a court of law, you shouldn't get an appeal. It should be a done deal.

So... You're saying that in our obviously flawed legal system mistakes don't happen? Yeah...

 

[zDom]

It is why we don't convict for murder when the death was accidental, or why we don't convict small children if they accidentally kill someone. Thus, why should we convict someone who literally cannot tell fantasy from reality (psychosis) and had no criminal intent? Commitment will do more good in that case than prison.

If they are so psychotic they can't help but murder people, then surely we can strap them to an execution device and tell them it's a ride to the moon. After all, they won't know the difference, will they?

Insanity, IMO, should never be an excuse for murder as ANYBODY who murders isn't quite right in the head.

 

[Tames D]

Thank you Empty Hands for the eloquent counterpoint. I couldn't have said it better myself.



So... You're saying that in our obviously flawed legal system mistakes don't happen? Yeah...

Oh yeah, nistakes will happen. But they may happen during the appeal trial, and the 2nd appeal trial and the 3rd...I say draw the line with one trial. One trial per customer and let the cookies crumble...

 

[Bigshadow]

Empty Hands, you definitely raise some very good points.

The system is certainly flawed. Also, regardless, crime will never go away. It will always be ever present. But there are crimes that can be mitigated. Not all crimes are equal.

So we can be just like they are? Kill like they do? No thanks.

No. Just let them kill each other. Echoes of "Running Man". j/k

Thus, why should we convict someone who literally cannot tell fantasy from reality (psychosis) and had no criminal intent?

Well if it so much fantasy then why is it they go to such great lengths to cover up their crimes, (burying their victims, hiding the bodies, etc). That to me sounds like they do recognize that they did something VERY BAD.

 

[JBrainard]

Oh yeah, nistakes will happen. But they may happen during the appeal trial, and the 2nd appeal trial and the 3rd...I say draw the line with one trial. One trial per customer and let the cookies crumble...

I'm not claiming to be a statistics expert or anything, but don't the chances of a mistake happening decrease when you double check something? To use science as an analogy: the more measurements you take, the more accurate your results will be.

Well if it so much fantasy then why is it they go to such great lengths to cover up their crimes, (burying their victims, hiding the bodies, etc). That to me sounds like they do recognize that they did something VERY BAD.

Empty Hands' point about the truely insane is still valid, because you are describing people who are pretending to be insane. Which is, I completely agree, yet another problem with our justice system.

 

[Empty Hands]

If they are so psychotic they can't help but murder people, then surely we can strap them to an execution device and tell them it's a ride to the moon. After all, they won't know the difference, will they?

No, but we will.

Insanity, IMO, should never be an excuse for murder as ANYBODY who murders isn't quite right in the head.

That's the point - the truly psychotic may not even know they have committed a murder. Surely, you realize I am not arguing that someone who can successfully present an insanity defense is "right in the head." Just that they don't meet our criteria for mens rea. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be committed to a psychiatric hospital for their protection and ours.

 

[Empty Hands]

But there are crimes that can be mitigated. Not all crimes are equal.

I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Pardon my denseness!

No. Just let them kill each other. Echoes of "Running Man". j/k

One of my favorite movies of all time. Very tempting!

Well if it so much fantasy then why is it they go to such great lengths to cover up their crimes, (burying their victims, hiding the bodies, etc). That to me sounds like they do recognize that they did something VERY BAD.

Well sure, behavior like that would be used by the prosecutor to argue against an insanity defense. Despite what alot of people seem to believe, successful use of the insanity defense is rare. Successful use of the temporary insanity defense is practically non-existent.