Speaking of Urban Legends

bushidomartialarts said:
do you feel there's polarization towards the troops today?

i think one place the military is going a much better job is with their support for veterans. my brother has done two tours over there now, and he goes through a pretty detailed and (from what i can tell) well designed re-entry program that's aimed at helping him psychologically and logistically.

i'm not arguing that our society is extremely polarized right now -- not even i'm that dumb. i just don't see many people taking it out on the troops.

and for the record, i don't think people filed police reports for getting spat on in the 70s. back then, our culture still believed in just smacking somebody who was that out of line.
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Yeah people just beat eachother up. Why no assault reports? The image of soldiers stoicly pacing on as spit dribbles down there face is something I have seen time and time again on fictional portrayals, but can you imagine family members not reacting to assaults as their sons came home.?
Sean
 
Touch Of Death said:
Yeah people just beat eachother up. Why no assault reports? The image of soldiers stoicly pacing on as spit dribbles down there face is something I have seen time and time again on fictional portrayals, but can you imagine family members not reacting to assaults as their sons came home.?
Sean
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One of my old kenpo teachers was a vet of that war. He dealt with a great deal of harassment; recounted constant car damage and graffiti ("It should have been you" painted accross his hood, with a picture of dead Viet Cong glued by the writing, and that sort of thing). I'm not sure if he was ever spit on, but he did have several people try to jump him. One of his favorite stories was about a biker gang that helped him out in one scuffle, only to find out after the fact they had already completed their tours of duty. And the only reason the other guys started something? They were college frat boys objecting to the war; he was in uniform.
 
Who'll Stop the War?
by Michael I. Niman

The name Vietnam is back in our vocabulary, as we seem to be developing an interest in history—or at least in the history of wars that just would not end. The problem is that when we ignore history, we’re condemned to repeat it.
http://artvoice.com/issues/v6n5/wholl_stop_the_war
 
I returned home from Viet Nam and was headed to San Francisco to pick up my car, when I was spit on by a long haired guy at the SF bus station- lucky for me the bus driver pushed the jerk back and let me on the bus. BTW I was in full dress uniform. I was a sailor. I saw groups of protesters in the SF area giving major grief to the marines as they got on and off of buses that fall. So believe it or not- it is up to you- we were despised. The only reason we were wearing our uniforms was to get the discounted fare to and from. If it wasn't for that- I would have been in civvies.

My father was the head of the local vfw post
when I tried to get a drink one night , I was given nothing but grief by the WW2 vets. So , I left. I brought it up to my father and told him I wouldn't join the post, he made a big stink of it. I never did go back. After all, I wasn't in a REAL WAR.
 
Carol Kaur said:
There are also absolutely NO ACCOUNTS - Zip Zero Nada - of any witches being burned at the stake in Salem, Mass.

Trust me, I live here.

If there are any accounts of witches being burned at the stake, they are fake. It did NOT happen.

Forget what you know. No witches were burned at the stake in Salem.

Believe what you want but I'm telling you the rock solid truth.

Because...in 1692 Salem, witches weren't burned at the stake.

They were hanged.

EDIT:
I'm not sure how many "people spitting on Us Soldiers after comming home from vietnam at the airport"

Soldiers returning from Vietnam were typically flown back to a base, not to an airport.
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Then on their trip home from their home base they flew on commercial planes military stand by or cut rate flights. As far as I know, there were no military planes flying into Detroit metro airport to get me home- I flew American Airlines coach in uniform for the discount
 
Thank you Buzz. For everything. :asian:
 
Touch Of Death said:
Yeah people just beat eachother up. Why no assault reports? The image of soldiers stoicly pacing on as spit dribbles down there face is something I have seen time and time again on fictional portrayals, but can you imagine family members not reacting to assaults as their sons came home.?
Sean
Click to expand...

Sean, and others. I swear, if you were some random dude who just signed up I would verbally punch you straight in the coutter! ;) I am going to patiently assume that you and others aren't just trolling, but are logical people who have maybe just gotten caught up in the recent media hype.

Please, I beg you folks, try to listen to reason on this:

1. There were a lot of police reports of fights, vandalism, arrests, and so forth over conflicts between soldiers and war protestors. These occured 30-40 years ago. Most legal records for non-felony charges are purged from the system in 7-10 years. I am sure there were multiple police reports because we can find references in records to these in newspaper articles and witness accounts. Just because I can't fax you over a police report from the 70s that details a spitting incident, that doesn't mean that such incidents never occured, or that such reports never existed or don't exist today. I in fact linked to a news report of war protestors vandalizing a veterans memorial to deceased soldiers right on this thread. I also linked to a spitting incident that occured recently in Syracuse NY. There is also VIDEO FOOTAGE that does exist (not sure where to find it at the moment) of protestors spitting on soldiers. So don't fall into the trap that some leftie media hounds have laid, and look at all the evidence objectively before you make yourself look immoral and stupid by supporting an immoral and stupid premise.

2. The idea that this was a "myth" was propigated in a 1998 book that I already referenced here by Jerry Lembcke. Mr. Lembcke decided that the "spitting on soldiers" idea was a myth; a part of some vast right wing conspiracy to denounce war protestors. His evidence was that he claimed that he couldn't find any eyewitness accounts of such incidents, or "official reports" like police reports and such. He makes a whole host of claims with faulty statistics to bolster his argument. He also claimed that because some soldiers spoke out against the war, that this means that "protestors" and "soldiers" were all on the same side, thus no incidents of foul treatment could have occured.

Mr. Lembcke is both morally bankrupt and intellectually dishonest. A more objective individual had asked the same questions of "did this really happen" 10 years prior to Lembcke's book. A writer by the name of Bob Greene had asked the question and asked for responses in several syndicated columns in the 80's. He recieved 1000's of responses from vets accounting tales being spat on, and much worse. He detailed this in his book that I have already referenced here "The Homecoming." This book, on top of news accounts and countless other accounts of soldiers being treated poorly can be found fairly easily.

Mr. Lembcke selectively left Greene's book, and all the other evidence, out of his "research."

3. One has to ask themselves why would radio hosts, columnists, bloggers, and other "liberally biased" media sources would take such a strong interest in "debunking" this "myth" today. The obvious reason is that these people, who are war protestors and ideologically similar to those during the Vietnam era, don't want to be associated with those who would spit on and socially "attack" and degrade soldiers.

But, because these certain people are so morally bankrupt, instead of doing the right thing and simply denouncing previous behavior towards soldiers and behaving differently then their predecessors, they would rather REWRITE HISTORY AND PRETEND THAT IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Don't become as immoral as these people. It is one thing (and perfectly American as we have these freedoms) to dislike the war and dissent. It is quite another to try to rewrite history to serve your agenda.

4. Vietnam was very polarizing for many people during that era, even within the armed forces. This was due to a lot of reasons, one of which could be the DRAFT. Right now, we have a volunteer army. The large portion of people that I know in the military are happy to be serving, regardless of the politics behind the Iraq war. You institute a draft, and now all of a sudden you will have a lot of troops who don't want to be there, and a lot of desenters and "soldiers" who protest the war. Why do you think that many anti-war politicians talk about instituting the draft, despite reports from the Generals that this is not needed yet? They would be willing to FORCE young men and women into service in hopes that it will create enough dissent to end the war. See, for some of these folks, the ends justify the means, no matter how wrong the means. Can we say "morally bankrupt"?

But I digress... the fact is, ideological "peer pressure" is what tends to occur here. There are many pro-war, anti-war, and middle of the road vets from the vietnam era. There are a small few who got sucked into the anti-war movement who served. There are a few who went the opposite direction.

But the overwhelming evidence exists that the anti-war crowd of that era was anti-troop. Sure, if you were a soldier who was willing to trash your medals and your uniform for their cause, they were happy to USE YOU for the cause. But this does not make them "pro-troop, anti-war." Because if you were a soldier who was proud of your service regardless of the politics, and was proud to wear your uniform in public, you were considered trash yourself by many of the anti-war folks, and you were treated as such.

And with such a strong anti-war sentiment towards the end because people were so sick and tired of Vietnam, many soldiers were trashed in public by the public.

Yet, they all had families and friends and others who were understanding, and who treated soldiers well upon their return.

So, no, not every person or "anti-war" person trashed soldiers during Vietnam. Not everyone had a horrible homecoming. But enough of them did for us to remember this point of history, and not deny it to serve a soulless political agenda.

5. Immoral means don't justify an end no matter what way you slice it. Trying to change history to serve an end is disrespectful to your country and to those who serve it. Maybe you can say that you "support the troops" but that you "disagree with the way political leaders are managing the war." But you cannot say that you "support the troops" but that you believe that the stories of vets being treated poorly during Vietnam were all "myths."

This is because many soldiers have given first hand accounts of being treated poorly in countless publications, including RIGHT HERE IN THIS THREAD. So by saying that these accounts are myths, you are saying that these soldiers are LIARS.

How can you say you "SUPPORT THE TROOPS" when you are so willing to call so many of them LIARS?

Just think about what you are doing, and what you are saying. Please... I beg you. Don't be stupid, and don't fall into immoral, agenda driven stupidity. Because it really does hurt people in the long run...
 
The article I posted makes some of the same claims as the OP mentioned. I agree and disagree with it. While it goes on abit about no "proof", I've heard from enough reliable people that stuff did happen to wonder about the sources used.
 
kuntawguro said:
I returned home from Viet Nam and was headed to San Francisco to pick up my car, when I was spit on by a long haired guy at the SF bus station- lucky for me the bus driver pushed the jerk back and let me on the bus. BTW I was in full dress uniform. I was a sailor. I saw groups of protesters in the SF area giving major grief to the marines as they got on and off of buses that fall. So believe it or not- it is up to you- we were despised. The only reason we were wearing our uniforms was to get the discounted fare to and from. If it wasn't for that- I would have been in civvies.

My father was the head of the local vfw post
when I tried to get a drink one night , I was given nothing but grief by the WW2 vets. So , I left. I brought it up to my father and told him I wouldn't join the post, he made a big stink of it. I never did go back. After all, I wasn't in a REAL WAR.
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From the daughter of a Vietnam vet, and with utmost respect...

:asian:
 
The town of Bristol, Rhode Island has one of the oldest, and largest, Independence Day parades in the country.

The parade goes on for hours and hours and people come from all around the country to march in the parade and to watch the parade. It's an amazing sight.

I went there when I was in college, one of my schoolmates was from the area. She and I were walking about enjoying the parade when she drew my attention to a performing act that was doing this synchronized dance/march that was beautifully produced and absolutely enthralling to watch.

After this performance was a fairly nondescript truck with 4 or 5 tough old fellows in the back. On the side was a carefully handpainted sign announcing the regiment they served in over in Vietnam.

I saw them, waved, clapped, and cheered. My friend looked at me oddly at first but then she started cheering too. One of the bigger dudes shouted "Thank you!" back in a voice that sounded so deeply touched, it moved me to silence.

"Thank YOU!!" I shouted back. By this time, the fellow was about 10 feet in front of me. The grizzled vet stared in to my eyes, his face welled up with tears and he bowed his head slightly towards me.

"Anytime..." he said, in a choked, but very clear voice.

I have tears in my eyes typing this. I don't think I will ever forget that, and hope I never will.
 
Carol Kaur said:
I don't think I will ever forget that, and hope I never will.
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And what is more important - neither will he.

Horrible actions were taken toward veterans after Vietnam and Korea, by people who had valid concerns and complaints, but who chose the wrong people to demonstrate against. The brave men and women who served in those wars (and wars they were, no matter what politicians choose to call them) deserve our utmost respect, even more so because of the derision demonstrated to them instead of to the leaders who sent them to war. Nothing we do today can change the wrongs of the past - but hopefully, we can express our thanks today, and avoid visiting the sins of the leaders on those who choose to serve our country.
 
Well, my uncle became a cop after comming home from vietnam and he told me point blank that not only was their a near riot of "peacful protesters" there throwing things at him and his fellow soldiers, but he was actually spit on outside of the airport though the window of his parents car as they drove home.

does that count as a police report?

seems to be a pointless, angry thread here.
 
Wow, wow, wow, and wow. Ok, I have been in V.F.W. halls and seen 1st hand how Vietnam vets get treated by WWII and Korean vets. I am here to tell you, it pissed me off and I was born at the very end of the Vietnam conflict.

Hamburger Hill, Platoon, Marine Corps history, 'Nam the comic from Marvel and some stories told me while listening to those who would even talk about it is all I know of this conflict. However, the most important part is that they were doing what their country asked them to do. Period, end of story.

Some volunteered, most were drafted. Wow, so I suppose most of the things I saw and was part of in the U.S.M.C. is malarky because there is no formal report.

This will probably get me banned but I don't care........The thing is "If you didn't wear a uniform, march a post, defend people who could care less because you felt it your honor and duty then shut the **** up"

Wow, just wow.
 
Found this post via Taranto. Apparently, it is to be the first of a series responding to Lembcke's arguments.
 
I got to meet and talk with Ron Kovic and he spoke to me about the atrocious behavior he was met with upon return stateside and the continuing issues in the management of Veterans Affairs. We talked about the movie based on his experiences, "Born On The Fourth of July" and, at that time, the coming Persian Gulf War.

War is hell.

It's three simple words that mean volumes ... much of it messy and self-depracating ... stuff many of us don't want to look at or admit. It's too goddamn easy to call things we don't want to admit happened "myths."

My history teacher was a Vietnam Vet - hell only the sole female history teacher at my high school wasn't a Vietnam Vet. All the coaches were Nam Vets. When asked the obligatory, ignorant teenage question, "Did people really spit on you," that student was met with a steely silence and we received accounts of things I don't even want to repeat.

Fellas (and ladies) ... there are some of us out here who didn't serve but who have an idea what you had to go through ... and appreciate you nonetheless. You did your jobs and I, for one, thank you.

:asian:
 
Yes, soldiers & sailors were spit upon during veitnam and after. One spit on my uncle in Houston and my lil 7 yr old self kicked the *expletive deleted* square in the nuts. People didn't make police reports over silly BS like they do these days, back in the 70's if you made a report like that the cop would have asked you "So why didn't you punch him?".

I'd be less nice today if I saw someone do that to ANY of our military personnel. You dang sure ain't gonna see that happen in the Southern US, us rednecks would kick the daylights out of a liberal that was stupid enough to try.
 
kuntawguro said:
My father was the head of the local vfw post
when I tried to get a drink one night , I was given nothing but grief by the WW2 vets. So , I left. I brought it up to my father and told him I wouldn't join the post, he made a big stink of it. I never did go back. After all, I wasn't in a REAL WAR.
Click to expand...

My Dad is a Vietnam vet, so I have always considered it a REAL WAR. After speaking with many Vietnam vets, I don't see how anyone could consider it anything else but war. Sure, it may not meet some sort of political or legal definition, but it was a war.

Just curious as to how long ago that was? The torch has pretty much been passed to the Vietnam/Korean war vets at my post. Even more recent war veterans are being elected as officers.

Would you reconsider becoming a member? The politicians see numbers, and those numbers can translate into getting the promised services for the vets. I haven't agreed with some of the stances the national organization has taken, but over all it is a good outfit. It's amazing how much the local VFWs do for their communities too. Not just for vets, but for children's programs, safety programs, food pantries, etc.

If you find yourself headed about 2.5 hours South of T.C. (Whitelake Area), PM me and I will buy you a drink at my post.

Sincerely,
crushing
 
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