Sparring against Shotokan Black Belt

[Headhunter]

Conditioning is supposed to be part of martial arts training.

Not really no martial arts is about many things. What conditioning do you do in things like tai chi

 

[KangTsai]

Stop the bouncing. It's a waste of energy and if you fight someone like me, then I'm going to time your bounce and put you on the ground or give you bruised shins and legs, or both. Half way through the video you stopped bouncing (which is good) and it probably felt good to.

Bouncing is very common in striking, and it really doesn't do much detriment to the fighter when mixed with grappling, as bouncing can keep the fighter mobile and significantly impact the pace of the fight, depending on how good you are at pacing yourself, and controlling it. After a certain point, bouncing consumes virtually no energy at all, and the only reason you stop it becomes that you want to slow down to a feeling pace to set up attack. Of course, you don't have to bounce, nobody says that. But if you use it right, it's definitely an advantage over those who cannot. Wrestlers don't bounce, simply because, they are always "in the pocket." This means that leaning forward, front-heavy is advantageous, which eliminates the want for such footwork. This

if you fight someone like me, then I'm going to time your bounce and put you on the ground or give you bruised shins and legs, or both.

should be taken with a grain of salt too - if it was that easy to time stand-up bounces (which really aren't even bounces, they're really just hip shifts) for a successful shot, one of the best wrestlers in the UFC couldn't possibly think of bouncing, ever - he should know better, right?

Nope. TJ Dillashaw bounces like a wallaby in training and between fences. Since he's so good at utilising such footwork, coupled with his speed, he can outpace and outstrike most opponents without a sweat, while being dominant in most of his wrestling exchanges.
I'm not saying you're a bad grappler or anything near that. But I think that's an exaggeration.

PS: this was a "touch-sparring" match, like point karate/tkd, so bouncing is pretty much metagame.

 

[Tez3]

Bouncing is very common in striking, and it really doesn't do much detriment to the fighter when mixed with grappling, as bouncing can keep the fighter mobile and significantly impact the pace of the fight, depending on how good you are at pacing yourself, and controlling it. After a certain point, bouncing consumes virtually no energy at all, and the only reason you stop it becomes that you want to slow down to a feeling pace to set up attack. Of course, you don't have to bounce, nobody says that. But if you use it right, it's definitely an advantage over those who cannot. Wrestlers don't bounce, simply because, they are always "in the pocket." This means that leaning forward, front-heavy is advantageous, which eliminates the want for such footwork. This should be taken with a grain of salt too - if it was that easy to time stand-up bounces (which really aren't even bounces, they're really just hip shifts) for a successful shot, one of the best wrestlers in the UFC couldn't possibly think of bouncing, ever - he should know better, right?

Nope. TJ Dillashaw bounces like a wallaby in training and between fences. Since he's so good at utilising such footwork, coupled with his speed, he can outpace and outstrike most opponents without a sweat, while being dominant in most of his wrestling exchanges.
I'm not saying you're a bad grappler or anything near that. But I think that's an exaggeration.

PS: this was a "touch-sparring" match, like point karate/tkd, so bouncing is pretty much metagame.

Just because one MMA fighter 'bounces' actually proves nothing, it doesn't mean bouncing is good it just means that one MMA fighter bounces. That you think it works for him means little, he may actually be a better fighter if he didn't do it but it's his shtick. Every fighter needs something that makes him different, noticeable so promoters pick him and people buy tickets to watch him fight.
I think you may need considerable more fighting experience to actually state that bouncing is good or that another poster isn't as good as he thinks he is.

 

[KangTsai]

Just because one MMA fighter 'bounces' actually proves nothing, it doesn't mean bouncing is good it just means that one MMA fighter bounces. That you think it works for him means little, he may actually be a better fighter if he didn't do it but it's his shtick. Every fighter needs something that makes him different, noticeable so promoters pick him and people buy tickets to watch him fight.
I think you may need considerable more fighting experience to actually state that bouncing is good or that another poster isn't as good as he thinks he is.

I think my main point was that it's not THAT much easier at all for a takedown to occur simply because of the fact the fighter is bouncing. It would have to do with the range, posture and reaction of the target.

 

[Ironbear24]

Not really no martial arts is about many things. What conditioning do you do in things like tai chi

That depends on the form of tai chi. I am sure Tai chi chuan which is more combat oriented has some type of body conditioning.

Don't quote me on that because I have never trained in that.

 

[Tez3]

I think my main point was that it's not THAT much easier at all for a takedown to occur simply because of the fact the fighter is bouncing. It would have to do with the range, posture and reaction of the target.

'You think'? How people have you taken down in a pro rules MMA fight? JKW is a very thoughtful poster, he tries things out, has a lot of experience and wouldn't say something about techniques he couldn't prove. I think basing your supposition on one MMA fighter and your own short experience in martial arts doesn't make you right about this. JKW isn't the only experienced martial artist saying bouncing isn't necessary, other very experienced martial artist are saying it too. Sure it works for the odd fighter, though as I said we haven't seen them fight without doing it there's a chance they could be better without it. As for it not using much energy that would be true when you are 16 I imagine but not true when you are older and have larger muscles to feed!

 

[drop bear]

steve vic back in the shiny pants kickboxing days could pull the TKD style off.

He meshed in some good hands though.

 

[Flatfish]

Just to throw this in there: about a year ago I had the pleasure of attending a sparring seminar with some members of the Korean Natl. TKD team.....I got constantly yelled at for not bouncing more

 

[Tez3]

Just to throw this in there: about a year ago I had the pleasure of attending a sparring seminar with some members of the Korean Natl. TKD team.....I got constantly yelled at for not bouncing more

Watching the Olympic TKD you can see competitors bounce... doesn't make it a good thing though just makes it Olympic TKD. You don't see them punching much either.

 

[Flatfish]

Watching the Olympic TKD you can see competitors bounce... doesn't make it a good thing though just makes it Olympic TKD. You don't see them punching much either.

I didn't mean to defend it. I just put it there to say that it's, as you point out, an Olympic TKD thing.

Edited to add: after a quick Youtube consultation it seems to also be an ITF sparring thing

 

[JowGaWolf]

Bouncing is very common in striking, and it really doesn't do much detriment to the fighter when mixed with grappling, as bouncing can keep the fighter mobile and significantly impact the pace of the fight, depending on how good you are at pacing yourself, and controlling it

This may seem the case if you spar or fight where grappling and sweeps aren't allowed. Bouncing means that you are not rooted. It also means that you have given your opponent something to time you on. As your opponent I now know when you will be off the ground and when you'll be sinking into your root. I don't bounce and you wouldn't have the advantage that you think you would have.

should be taken with a grain of salt too - if it was that easy to time stand-up bounces (which really aren't even bounces, they're really just hip shifts) for a successful shot, one of the best wrestlers in the UFC couldn't possibly think of bouncing, ever - he should know better, right

He knows better. Here's his UFC fight. Clearly there is no bouncing around like TKD

and other

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Forgive me; I'm going to rant a little bit. Before I do that -- kudos to both of you for training, for working out together... My rant's not personal.

I'm linking two videos of some tournaments from maybe the 70s. (Can't ask Bob easily just this moment). My point about them is that you see competitors from several styles fight. They LOOK different.

and

(especially from about 1:00 to 9:00 minutes; there may be some repetition in the two links )

You guys... you're both in that side stance bouncing thing. You look the same... and if you weren't in different colored uniforms, it'd be kind of hard to say who represented what style. Now, I know there is some historical connection ( ) between Shotokan and Tae Kwon Do -- the two arts have gone their own way. There should be some recognizable differences between you two -- and not just a few more punches.

Why the hell do we do forms, do you train various stances and tactics... then throw that out when we set down and spar? I see one of two things in most "open" sparring: either that side stance, or a kind of poorly done boxing stance. Now, I recognize that there are "fighting stances" and "formal stances" -- but different styles should have different fighting stances, reflecting their tactics and their strategies. And those should show through in the fighting...

OK, that's out of my system.

Like I said, not personal. You guys looked pretty sharp -- and you're out there working. Maybe I've given you (and others) some food for thought in their training...

A question (not an assertion) on this. Is it possible that a style's own primary stance is one of the better counters to that style's tactics? It seems likely practitioners would adopt a stance that best fits what they fight against the most (their own style). If that's true (a big "if"), then it would make sense that styles would start to adopt similar stances as there's more mixing (much more mixing today than there was in the '70's). There would also be some cross-pollination of tactics. These could make the styles look more similar, the more they have to deal with each other.

Whatcha think?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nice video!

Well, first of all I have no background in either art so take my comments with the proverbial grain of salt.

I do see a difference in stance and behaviour. The guy in white feels "squarer ", more "grounded" while the other has more dynamic kicks and throws them in combinations. I'm guessing that OP is the man in the black gi.

The "issue" here is that the karate friend, even though he drops into a low stance, stays really "bouncy". Does he compete in Shotokan point fighting? I'd also keep in mind the fact that it was just light sparring where you both were trying out stuff.

IMHO it would have looked more like karate VS TKD if your friend had committed to the "one hit kill" approach with linear bursts. Then you would have had to be more careful about not letting him get into range and retaliating with kicks. And I agree with the others on the subject of keeping your hands up

Just my 2 cents.

One of my students has several years of Shotokan, and they spar like that (bouncing) even in class.

 

[jks9199]

A question (not an assertion) on this. Is it possible that a style's own primary stance is one of the better counters to that style's tactics? It seems likely practitioners would adopt a stance that best fits what they fight against the most (their own style). If that's true (a big "if"), then it would make sense that styles would start to adopt similar stances as there's more mixing (much more mixing today than there was in the '70's). There would also be some cross-pollination of tactics. These could make the styles look more similar, the more they have to deal with each other.

Whatcha think?

It's a very easybtrap for a style to set itself up best against itself or similar styles. But I actually suspect therevwas more free mixing in the past than today... Profit oriented schools, liability concerns, even just time available to explore makes ot harder today, i think. (Outside of the special scope of MMA.) But there was a different understanding of mixing, i think. Rather than "I use BJJ on the ground, Thai knees and clinch, etc." There was more taking a piece or technique and incorporating it into your style than i see today. But, that's also just my opinion, too...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

From what I've seen on here 1-4 years for a BB puts you in the "too soon" category. 5-6 years puts you in the "ok, that's decent" category. 7-10 years puts you in the "legitimate" category.

That's just based on folks' conception of what BB "means". It would be true-ish within NGA, but I have little reason to be concerned about how others use those same colors for their ranks. So long as they are clear within their program what BB really means, that's all that really matters to me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

after a quick Youtube consultation

this is how I will refer to youtube from now on lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is one of the reason why I like non-belted systems. I watched the conversation turn into about how fast you got a black belt. From what I've seen of your videos you are about where most people are in sparring after 2 years. They have a set of basic skills that they feel comfortable with. You have a little panic in your movement but that will change the more you spar and as you become comfortable with being hit and kicked. By your third year you'll need to slowly start adding some of the other techniques that you do in forms into your sparring. If you don't do that then where you are now is where you'll always be.

I like belted systems, personally. I just wish we could leave the belts out of these discussions, for precisely the reasons you point to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Non belted systems can work well. You can judge only on 'performance'.
The problem though with training with people from other systems is that if you wear your black belt they tend to assume you are at the same point as they are. That can go two ways, people where promotion is slower, more involved and have taken a few more years to reach their first black belt will assume that you are at more or less the same standard as they are in which case you will lose, big style. Of course if it was you who reached your first black belt after a few years and think the black belt facing you is the same you will have a pleasant surprise to find them at the same standard as one of your lower grades however good he is. An interesting problem.

This is, indeed, an issue with belt ranks. And it's why, when I travel to another school, I bring both my black belt and a white belt. If I can watch class a bit and confirm that BB means approximately the same thing there, I'll wear the black one (it's more what they'd expect and communicates my level appropriately). If their BB means something drastically different (at least in the context at hand, as it would in a BJJ school), I'll put on the white one to better communicate what they should expect.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's a very easybtrap for a style to set itself up best against itself or similar styles. But I actually suspect therevwas more free mixing in the past than today... Profit oriented schools, liability concerns, even just time available to explore makes ot harder today, i think. (Outside of the special scope of MMA.) But there was a different understanding of mixing, i think. Rather than "I use BJJ on the ground, Thai knees and clinch, etc." There was more taking a piece or technique and incorporating it into your style than i see today. But, that's also just my opinion, too...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I was thinking more about the likelihood that a given school will have students with significant experience in other arts. In the 70's, schools were farther apart, and there were fewer arts to be found in most towns. Today, finding a Karate school and a Tae Kwon Do school in the same area is pretty easy. And students are likely to occasionally leave one and go to the other. I would expect that to have an impact on the other students in the school.

 

[Buka]

Is it possible that a style's own primary stance is one of the better counters to that style's tactics? It seems likely practitioners would adopt a stance that best fits what they fight against the most (their own style)

Great observation.