Sparring against Shotokan Black Belt

[drop bear]

Yeah nothing against tae Kwon do or against azulux as he does not do what I am about to mention. Many people in TKD get a black belt in like one year and they "spar" with all this gear on. Head gear, chest gaurd, gloves shin guards and foot pads and mouth piece, aaaaand they don't even seem to try to connect with their kicks.

I think it is because they don't understand distance well and are afraid to get in close, because when you get in close you are more likely to get hit.

If you can out kick the guy you are fighting. Why would you get in close?

 

[Tez3]

By the way. For all of those guys who are lazer focused on hands up. Hopefully you are also focused on head movement footwork, correct entries and exits.

Because hands are part of a defensive package. Not all of one.

Top boxers dont always fight hands up. They know when to put hands up and why. So hopefully if the discussion turns to hands up don't bounce then the people discussing it should also explain the mechanics behind making that decision.

And hands up stops face punching really isnt the whole story.

Especially if there isn't face punching being done in that sparring session.

One assumes that any black belt would know correct head movement, footwork etc etc.
We know that hands up isn't 'everything' but when the hands are never up it tends to be one of quite a few indicators that those sparring aren't as experienced as they think they are. Hands aren't necessarily up to stop a punch, there's a number of reasons to have your hands up. I won't list them as I'm assuming everyone here is experienced enough to know why ( just as we assumed people knew about footwork etc and didn't labour the point) no point in teaching grandmother to suck eggs.

 

[Headhunter]

Yeah nothing against tae Kwon do or against azulux as he does not do what I am about to mention. Many people in TKD get a black belt in like one year and they "spar" with all this gear on. Head gear, chest gaurd, gloves shin guards and foot pads and mouth piece, aaaaand they don't even seem to try to connect with their kicks.

I think it is because they don't understand distance well and are afraid to get in close, because when you get in close you are more likely to get hit.

Umm so what if they wear protective gear? Maybe they don't want to go to work next day with broken ribs or broken toes or bruised shins

 

[Headhunter]

By the way. For all of those guys who are lazer focused on hands up. Hopefully you are also focused on head movement footwork, correct entries and exits.

Because hands are part of a defensive package. Not all of one.

Top boxers dont always fight hands up. They know when to put hands up and why. So hopefully if the discussion turns to hands up don't bounce then the people discussing it should also explain the mechanics behind making that decision.

And hands up stops face punching really isnt the whole story.

Especially if there isn't face punching being done in that sparring session.

Agreed no one keeps their hands up all the time especially when kicking watch any pro kickboxing match or mma fight they'll drop their hands when kicking. Some fighters constantly have their hands down. Look at Anderson silva. I know it caught him out but that was more he was taunting than the actual hands down. Or Ali he used to fight hands down. Sure it's important to keep your hands up but it's not be all and end all of defence

 

[Tez3]

Agreed no one keeps their hands up all the time especially when kicking watch any pro kickboxing match or mma fight they'll drop their hands when kicking. Some fighters constantly have their hands down. Look at Anderson silva. I know it caught him out but that was more he was taunting than the actual hands down. Or Ali he used to fight hands down. Sure it's important to keep your hands up but it's not be all and end all of defence

I love how keeping your hands up is mentioned and people jump on it saying how it's not necessary, how many fighters don't etc etc... Sure Ali could get away with it but how many of us are Ali? Keeping your hands up is a cog in the general engine of sparring not just defence, it's useful for a number of reasons.

Just because some pro fighters drop their hands when kicking doesn't mean that it's the optimum way to kick, others don't, they change their guard using the upper body movement to add extra power to the back leg kick which works very nicely. it depends on how and who taught you to kick in the first place, offering up that because pro fighters do something doesn't mean it's the way everyone should. Some pro fighters spit on the canvas, should we all just because they do?

 

[Flatfish]

Yeah nothing against tae Kwon do or against azulux as he does not do what I am about to mention. Many people in TKD get a black belt in like one year and they "spar" with all this gear on. Head gear, chest gaurd, gloves shin guards and foot pads and mouth piece, aaaaand they don't even seem to try to connect with their kicks.

I think it is because they don't understand distance well and are afraid to get in close, because when you get in close you are more likely to get hit.

Yeah, this is confusing to me....I don't see the connection between sparring gear and distancing. If you meant the connection between one year training (whether BB or not) and still learning distancing, then yeah sure. I remember very well how long it took me to get comfortable with stepping into a kick to jam it as opposed to jumping back to avoid it. And yes it also takes a while to not freak out about getting hit and getting used to it.

The good thing about sparring gear? Makes you sweat like a pregnant yak...good for your svelte physique

 

[Ironbear24]

Umm so what if they wear protective gear? Maybe they don't want to go to work next day with broken ribs or broken toes or bruised shins

That's fine and all but if you are going to wear that gear then make use of it. Hit eachother hard because that is what the gear is meant for. Instead many tap eachother despite the gear is what I'm saying.

 

[Flatfish]

That's fine and all but if you are going to wear that gear then make use of it. Hit eachother hard because that is what the gear is meant for. Instead many tap eachother despite the gear is what I'm saying.

Yeah, just depends. Sometimes we go light to try out new stuff, sometimes we go hard, also depends who you're sparring. Also, the protective gear is not all that, still plenty of bruises, sometimes real nice ones. I have been asked before to back off a bit on power and have taken a liver punch through the chest protector that nearly made me throw up, so.....

 

[Headhunter]

That's fine and all but if you are going to wear that gear then make use of it. Hit eachother hard because that is what the gear is meant for. Instead many tap eachother despite the gear is what I'm saying.

The gear doesn't work as a magic shield it'll still hurt a bit maybe not as much without but you can still feel it. It's like wearing a groin guard it still hurts like hell when you get a low shot but it'd hurt a lot more if you weren't wearing it

 

[Ironbear24]

Yeah, just depends. Sometimes we go light to try out new stuff, sometimes we go hard, also depends who you're sparring. Also, the protective gear is not all that, still plenty of bruises, sometimes real nice ones. I have been asked before to back off a bit on power and have taken a liver punch through the chest protector that nearly made me throw up, so.....

Then clearly you don't fall into what I am talking about.

 

[Ironbear24]

The gear doesn't work as a magic shield it'll still hurt a bit maybe not as much without but you can still feel it. It's like wearing a groin guard it still hurts like hell when you get a low shot but it'd hurt a lot more if you weren't wearing it

In my opinion it's best to spar with little to no gear because that conditions your body better. I know it can still hurt but obviously it will hurt more without it which is why it is better. Gear can create a level of comfort that won't always be there while no gear can give you that higher confidence.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In my opinion it's best to spar with little to no gear because that conditions your body better. I know it can still hurt but obviously it will hurt more without it which is why it is better. Gear can create a level of comfort that won't always be there while no gear can give you that higher confidence.

That's how I look at sparring with little gear. Part conditioning and part of me keeping a healthy sense that I can be hurt. Unfortunately many people think they can't get hurt with the gear on and as a result they get lazy in their defense. Take off the gear and you'll see students spar with more activity and more understanding of not wanting to get hit. The other instructor always wants me to blast him with good shots so he can learn. What he doesn't understand is, even with the head gear and gloves, I can still hurt him. But I guess one day he'll just have to learn the hard way. Not sure how long I can remain mature about not laying him out. I mean he literally keeps asking for it as if he wants to see if he can withstand my punch.

 

[Tez3]

Not sure how long I can remain mature about not laying him out. I mean he literally keeps asking for it as if he wants to see if he can withstand my punch.

It would be rude to say no...

 

[Ironbear24]

That's how I look at sparring with little gear. Part conditioning and part of me keeping a healthy sense that I can be hurt. Unfortunately many people think they can't get hurt with the gear on and as a result they get lazy in their defense. Take off the gear and you'll see students spar with more activity and more understanding of not wanting to get hit. The other instructor always wants me to blast him with good shots so he can learn. What he doesn't understand is, even with the head gear and gloves, I can still hurt him. But I guess one day he'll just have to learn the hard way. Not sure how long I can remain mature about not laying him out. I mean he literally keeps asking for it as if he wants to see if he can withstand my punch.

My sifu said it like this. "If you land a good hit on me being the big guy you are. I would be done. My goal is to break you before you can land that hit on me."

Another time he said this. "No matter who you are. You can get beat up. Humans are made of skin and bones and both are capable of breaking."

So no matter who you are that good hit can do damage to you. I don't know what to say to him other than no. You can and will get hurt just like anyone else can if they get hit clean and hard.

 

[Ironbear24]

Unfortunately many people think they can't get hurt with the gear on and as a result they get lazy in their defense. Take off the gear and you'll see students spar with more activity and more understanding of not wanting to get hit.

Yeah this is why I prefer without gear. With the gear people become very confident, but when that gear comes of suddenly they are afraid. It's about defeating that fear so you an become confident. It also teaches control with sparring, we have to be more careful to not injur eachother but also need to hit just hard enough to fight back.

It basically helps you know your strength.

 

[JP3]

Against people who spar with their hands down? Pretty well.
Last time I competed, I was 53. Because there was no geriatric age group, I sparred in the 30-35 year old black belt class. The people I sparred were from schools that typically do hands down WTF-style sparring. That tournament scored punches and allowed punches to the head. I took gold.

Against those two specific individuals? I don't know. I've never met them. But assuming a ruleset that doesn't force me to spar using only a tiny subset of what TKD teaches, I think I'd do pretty well.

How about you?

I know this isn't directed to me but it hit me funny, so I'll act like it was. And I mean Funny-haha not funny as in irritated, to be clear. Ha!

At 48 with all the cross training, and having originally come up in the point-fighting TKD bouncy thing displayed, I think I could safely say to either of the young guys the same thing said to me when I went and sparred for the first time with a grizzled old guy who may have even posted in the "Aging and Older Martial Artists" thread we have going here on MT. Which, I find hilarious as we all laugh ina nd at each other's pain, I muight add.

"Bounce one more time and you'll be getting up." Which, of course, I did not understand... so I had to get up to figure out what the old guy was trying to impart. Note -- I'm a slow & stubborn learner, so he had to ... ahh... repeat himself three more times before I took his point to heart. Bruised butt, too.

Bounce up, and lose contact with the floor even for a moment with someone who has any sort of timing and the inclination to not put up with it and you end up not standing up any more. It's the derndest thing.

Oh. Yes, keep your hands up. Or find out why.

Nowadays, I find that I'm torn on how to deal with kicks aimed at me, but I do agree... don't reach down to block kicks, that's what legs are for. Though, my "torn" is between the Muay Thai, which is straight-up leg blocking, and the aikido which is evasion. I find the best combination is the evasion until they get frustrated then shift gears, or styles, when a tactical mistake is made. That works well and you end up having to eat only one kick and then fight over. In the dojo anyway. The only real world kick I've ever had to face, outside of a full-contact bout, was the traditional kick in the business, which missed as I slipped it, and that fight ended with my front elbow driving the guy back after which he decided he was done. I've never had to fight a trained kicker "for real." Funny how that is, people growing humble and respectful by learnihngg the martial arts... what's that about... Humility, Respect, Wisdom, Restraint... aren't those just words on that poster we walk past as we go into the dojo?

 

[Headhunter]

In my opinion it's best to spar with little to no gear because that conditions your body better. I know it can still hurt but obviously it will hurt more without it which is why it is better. Gear can create a level of comfort that won't always be there while no gear can give you that higher confidence.

You need to realise that some people don't want that, they train for different reasons. Some don't want to condition there body by getting beaten up. Some do it simply for exercise or fun they don't care if they can take a beating.

 

[drop bear]

One assumes that any black belt would know correct head movement, footwork etc etc.
We know that hands up isn't 'everything' but when the hands are never up it tends to be one of quite a few indicators that those sparring aren't as experienced as they think they are. Hands aren't necessarily up to stop a punch, there's a number of reasons to have your hands up. I won't list them as I'm assuming everyone here is experienced enough to know why ( just as we assumed people knew about footwork etc and didn't labour the point) no point in teaching grandmother to suck eggs.

I wouldn't have assumed that. I know plenty of black belts who think hands up is the whole equation. And fight on rails.

 

[drop bear]

I love how keeping your hands up is mentioned and people jump on it saying how it's not necessary, how many fighters don't etc etc... Sure Ali could get away with it but how many of us are Ali? Keeping your hands up is a cog in the general engine of sparring not just defence, it's useful for a number of reasons.

Just because some pro fighters drop their hands when kicking doesn't mean that it's the optimum way to kick, others don't, they change their guard using the upper body movement to add extra power to the back leg kick which works very nicely. it depends on how and who taught you to kick in the first place, offering up that because pro fighters do something doesn't mean it's the way everyone should. Some pro fighters spit on the canvas, should we all just because they do?

Hands up isn't the dogmatic rule that it has been presented as.

eg.

"A black belt in 3 years is, like hands down sparring, not something that will be seen in our school."

The same issue you have with a reason like "because pro fighters do it." I have with" because nobody in our school does it."

If you are going to give advice. It should be supported with real reasons.

 

[Ironbear24]

You need to realise that some people don't want that, they train for different reasons. Some don't want to condition there body by getting beaten up. Some do it simply for exercise or fun they don't care if they can take a beating.

Conditioning is supposed to be part of martial arts training.