Sparring against Shotokan Black Belt

[Azulx]

@Dirty Dog so in 2 years at your school, what are you a yellow belt?

 

[Azulx]

Right and that gets to my point....there are schools out there that do things differently and that's great, but they are few and far between...for those that are not so lucky to have access to that training philosophy, but have a brain in their head we'll try to use it to the best of our abilities......I try to keep my hands up, don't bounce but I did get my BB in 3 years, so not sure where I fall there....

From what I've seen on here 1-4 years for a BB puts you in the "too soon" category. 5-6 years puts you in the "ok, that's decent" category. 7-10 years puts you in the "legitimate" category.

 

[Flatfish]

From what I've seen on here 1-4 years for a BB puts you in the "too soon" category. 5-6 years puts you in the "ok, that's decent" category. 7-10 years puts you in the "legitimate" category.

Well I mean I get it, a BB with 7 years of experience is different from one with 2 years of experience, no argument there. I do have some issues when folks get a bit high and mighty because they have the opportunity to train somewhere where they can get the whole art, more realistic sparring scenarios, deadly in the street, etc etc, because for most folks those schools are hard to come by.

If there was one like that in my area that would work with the rest of my life, I would happily train there and wouldn't give a flying rat's behind if it took me eight years to get to first Dan. As it is, I tried to find the best school I could and if they promote me to first Dan within three years I'm not going to apologize for it.....

 

[Headhunter]

From what I've seen on here 1-4 years for a BB puts you in the "too soon" category. 5-6 years puts you in the "ok, that's decent" category. 7-10 years puts you in the "legitimate" category.

It shouldn't matter. People can be good black belts who get it very quick. Thing is people are quick to judge I'm guilty of it myself I do it but really we can't say if those guys are good or bad we don't know them we don't watch them train and you can't blame the person for that if they get the belt they're going to take it anyone would and if they say they wouldn't they're a liar.

 

[Azulx]

Well I mean I get it, a BB with 7 years of experience is different from one with 2 years of experience, no argument there. I do have some issues when folks get a bit high and mighty because they have the opportunity to train somewhere where they can get the whole art, more realistic sparring scenarios, deadly in the street, etc etc, because for most folks those schools are hard to come by.

If there was one like that in my area that would work with the rest of my life, I would happily train there and wouldn't give a flying rat's behind if it took me eight years to get to first Dan. As it is, I tried to find the best school I could and if they promote me to first Dan within three years I'm not going to apologize for it.....

I completely understand this. We take what ever is the best available option. Black Belt is so personal, people get it at completely different time requirements. I don't think there is a 'legitimate' amount of time someone absolutely has to train to be one.

It shouldn't matter. People can be good black belts who get it very quick. Thing is people are quick to judge I'm guilty of it myself I do it but really we can't say if those guys are good or bad we don't know them we don't watch them train and you can't blame the person for that if they get the belt they're going to take it anyone would and if they say they wouldn't they're a liar.

I completely agree it's impossible to judge someone skill without knowing them. Therefore it is difficult to judge how good a black belt by just how long it took him to get it. It could take you 7 years and you could still be pretty bad at whatever martial art you are in.

 

[Headhunter]

I completely understand this. We take what ever is the best available option. Black Belt is so personal, people get it at completely different time requirements. I don't think there is a 'legitimate' amount of time someone absolutely has to train to be one.



I completely agree it's impossible to judge someone skill without knowing them. Therefore it is difficult to judge how good a black belt by just how long it took him to get it. It could take you 7 years and you could still be pretty bad at whatever martial art you are in.

Exactly I've seen guys who are 4th dans and been doing it for about 40 years who don't look any good and I don't think they could fight at all. That's my problem with a lot of older martial artists. Not all but some talk a great game and can talk for hours about technical stuff but when it comes down to it they can't fight for anything and get out of breath doing basic combinations. Sometimes when you spout on for hours about how to do a jab it becomes more of a ego trip to show how clever you are than about teaching students. Again that's not everyone but it defientely happens. Personally I can't explain things amazingly I'm not hugely experienced in the theory side and couldn't tell you amazing things about contouring or things like that. I know some but not huge amounts. And because of that some may say I'm no good or don't understand...well to me I don't care I know I can fight and handle myself if I get attacked that's all I care about being idea to recite a martial arts encyclopaedia isn't going to help when some punks trying to take my wallet

 

[Ironbear24]

Wow you have gotten much better. Use your hands more though!

 

[Tez3]

I actually just made 2 years last month.

Am I right in thinking you've only been training for two years and are a black belt already? Not that you've been a black belt for two years?

 

[Headhunter]

Am I right in thinking you've only been training for two years and are a black belt already? Not that you've been a black belt for two years?

I believe that is the case with the op could be wrong but that's how I've always taken it

 

[Azulx]

Am I right in thinking you've only been training for two years and are a black belt already? Not that you've been a black belt for two years?

Been training for 2 years, have been a black belt for about 5 months.

 

[Tez3]

Been training for 2 years, have been a black belt for about 5 months.

Ah, I see.

 

[Dirty Dog]

@Dirty Dog so in 2 years at your school, what are you a yellow belt?

Lower ranks generally go faster. So after two years, the average student is probably 7th or 6th geup. Maybe 5th. Higher colored belts typically take longer, with people often spending 12-18 months at 3rd, 2nd, or 1st geup.

From what I've seen on here 1-4 years for a BB puts you in the "too soon" category. 5-6 years puts you in the "ok, that's decent" category. 7-10 years puts you in the "legitimate" category.

Not really. Most of us believe that rank only has meaning within the system that issued it. What "1st Dan" means in your school is clearly not the same as what it means in ours. 6-8 years is what it takes most people to reach 1st Dan in our system. If you got yours in a year in your school, that's fine. You're a legitimate 1st Dan in that system.

Well I mean I get it, a BB with 7 years of experience is different from one with 2 years of experience, no argument there. I do have some issues when folks get a bit high and mighty because they have the opportunity to train somewhere where they can get the whole art, more realistic sparring scenarios, deadly in the street, etc etc, because for most folks those schools are hard to come by.

If there was one like that in my area that would work with the rest of my life, I would happily train there and wouldn't give a flying rat's behind if it took me eight years to get to first Dan. As it is, I tried to find the best school I could and if they promote me to first Dan within three years I'm not going to apologize for it.....

If you want the training, you will find it. Plenty of people have traveled hours to reach the teacher they wanted. Plenty of others have chosen not to.
Nobody (that I have seen) has attacked you or your training. But you seem awfully touchy on the subject. Why is that?

It shouldn't matter. People can be good black belts who get it very quick.

Well, no, not really, not by our definition of black belt, at least. I can train someone to be a good fighter in a matter of months. They will make rapid progress initially, and then slow down as things get more subtle. But they will not be a good black belt, since in our definition, a black belt requires a deeper knowledge, understanding, and ability to teach than can be gained in a year or two.
Again, maybe what you say is true of black belts in your system, but is absolutely not true of black belts in general.

Thing is people are quick to judge I'm guilty of it myself I do it but really we can't say if those guys are good or bad we don't know them we don't watch them train and you can't blame the person for that if they get the belt they're going to take it anyone would and if they say they wouldn't they're a liar.

This is not really true. Were my KJN to show up at our dojang tonight and offer me a 9th Dan, I would refuse it. He's the head of our system. He has the right to promote anyone he wants to any rank he wants. But I would not accept. I am not ready for that rank. And no, I most certainly am not a liar.

 

[Flatfish]

If you want the training, you will find it. Plenty of people have traveled hours to reach the teacher they wanted. Plenty of others have chosen not to.
Nobody (that I have seen) has attacked you or your training. But you seem awfully touchy on the subject. Why is that?

I am really not in the least interested in an online argument. I have been on this board long enough to have seen your posts about your training (which sounds good) and I respect your expertise.

As I said in one of the posts above, I had to find a place to train that fits my life and at present that is not something that allows me to travel hours to get martial arts instruction. So I found the best place I could in/for my area/schedule and train there with my son. I think my first post in this thread (post #9) shows that I have some issues with my training since our school definitely falls into the category I am talking about there and I wish some aspects of it would be better. No argument there.
More than anything I found the following post a bit condescending:

A black belt in 3 years is, like hands down sparring, not something that will be seen in our school.

Clearly, the hands down sparring, as was discussed in the preceding posts, is a negative and if you combine that with the statement about a 3 year BB the connotation is that this is a negative, too, or at least I took it that way. Maybe it wasn't meant that way, so this all moot.

To make a long story short. The reason I get a bit touchy is that I know that there is better training out there and I wish I had access to it (I am specifically talking about TKD, I might check out other systems at some point with maybe better options around here). On the other hand, I worked my butt off these 3 years since I started, with lots of training outside of class, trying to address some of the shortcomings of the training in the dojang, so when I come across a statement that seems to suggest that a 3 yr BB generally is as bad as sparring with your hands down I get a bit miffed.

But again maybe it's a misunderstanding, no interested in a fight.

 

[Headhunter]

I am really not in the least interested in an online argument. I have been on this board long enough to have seen your posts about your training (which sounds good) and I respect your expertise.

As I said in one of the posts above, I had to find a place to train that fits my life and at present that is not something that allows me to travel hours to get martial arts instruction. So I found the best place I could in/for my area/schedule and train there with my son. I think my first post in this thread (post #9) shows that I have some issues with my training since our school definitely falls into the category I am talking about there and I wish some aspects of it would be better. No argument there.
More than anything I found the following post a bit condescending:



Clearly, the hands down sparring, as was discussed in the preceding posts, is a negative and if you combine that with the statement about a 3 year BB the connotation is that this is a negative, too, or at least I took it that way. Maybe it wasn't meant that way, so this all moot.

To make a long story short. The reason I get a bit touchy is that I know that there is better training out there and I wish I had access to it (I am specifically talking about TKD, I might check out other systems at some point with maybe better options around here). On the other hand, I worked my butt off these 3 years since I started, with lots of training outside of class, trying to address some of the shortcomings of the training in the dojang, so when I come across a statement that seems to suggest that a 3 yr BB generally is as bad as sparring with your hands down I get a bit miffed.

But again maybe it's a misunderstanding, no interested in a fight.

Yeah tbh that annoys me when people say stuff like oh well I travelled 50 miles to train. Yeah well good for you mate you want a cookie? Some people physically can't travel 50 miles simply to train they have other priorities or simply don't have the means to do it. No school is perfect not a single place is perfect you do what you have to do with what you have and if you enjoy it even if the school is bad then so what. Some people are to concerned about what other people if it takes me 10 years to get a black belt and then I see who got it in 3 years I don't care. It's not my business he did his thing ill do mine.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Clearly, the hands down sparring, as was discussed in the preceding posts, is a negative and if you combine that with the statement about a 3 year BB the connotation is that this is a negative, too, or at least I took it that way. Maybe it wasn't meant that way, so this all moot.

In our school, both are negatives. In a pure KKW school, which focuses totally (or near-totally) on sport-TKD, neither would be considered a negative.

It appears that you're taking comments about the standards and expectations in our system and assuming I want them applied universally. I do not. I've stated so clearly and unequivocally on many occasions. Even, at least once, in this very thread.
Here's an easy way to read my posts:
Take what I say as exactly what I mean. Don't try to read into it. I'm not really particularly subtle.
If I say "You won't see that in our school", it means just that. It doesn't mean "you shouldn't see that in any school" for the very simple reason that if that were what I meant, that is what I would have said.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Been training for 2 years, have been a black belt for about 5 months.

This is one of the reason why I like non-belted systems. I watched the conversation turn into about how fast you got a black belt. From what I've seen of your videos you are about where most people are in sparring after 2 years. They have a set of basic skills that they feel comfortable with. You have a little panic in your movement but that will change the more you spar and as you become comfortable with being hit and kicked. By your third year you'll need to slowly start adding some of the other techniques that you do in forms into your sparring. If you don't do that then where you are now is where you'll always be.

 

[Ironbear24]

This is one of the reason why I like non-belted systems. I watched the conversation turn into about how fast you got a black belt. From what I've seen of your videos you are about where most people are in sparring after 2 years. They have a set of basic skills that they feel comfortable with. You have a little panic in your movement but that will change the more you spar and as you become comfortable with being hit and kicked. By your third year you'll need to slowly start adding some of the other techniques that you do in forms into your sparring. If you don't do that then where you are now is where you'll always be.

I think he needs to spar against different arts. The shotokan guy seemed to fight a lot like a tae Kwon do guy with mostly kicks. I find that with kicking arts many keep their hands lower to block kicks to their midsection and chest, sometimes face too.

With striking arts that punch a lot then you start seeing people bringing their hands up because now their face is in more danger. With me I often close the gap when it comes to kicks because I was pushed into that habit.

My sparring partners would do that to me all the time with my kicks so I began to doing to them out of spite lol.

 

[Tez3]

This is one of the reason why I like non-belted systems. I watched the conversation turn into about how fast you got a black belt. From what I've seen of your videos you are about where most people are in sparring after 2 years.

I think he needs to spar against different arts.

Non belted systems can work well. You can judge only on 'performance'.
The problem though with training with people from other systems is that if you wear your black belt they tend to assume you are at the same point as they are. That can go two ways, people where promotion is slower, more involved and have taken a few more years to reach their first black belt will assume that you are at more or less the same standard as they are in which case you will lose, big style. Of course if it was you who reached your first black belt after a few years and think the black belt facing you is the same you will have a pleasant surprise to find them at the same standard as one of your lower grades however good he is. An interesting problem.

 

[Ironbear24]

Yeah nothing against tae Kwon do or against azulux as he does not do what I am about to mention. Many people in TKD get a black belt in like one year and they "spar" with all this gear on. Head gear, chest gaurd, gloves shin guards and foot pads and mouth piece, aaaaand they don't even seem to try to connect with their kicks.

I think it is because they don't understand distance well and are afraid to get in close, because when you get in close you are more likely to get hit.

 

[drop bear]

By the way. For all of those guys who are lazer focused on hands up. Hopefully you are also focused on head movement footwork, correct entries and exits.

Because hands are part of a defensive package. Not all of one.

Top boxers dont always fight hands up. They know when to put hands up and why. So hopefully if the discussion turns to hands up don't bounce then the people discussing it should also explain the mechanics behind making that decision.

And hands up stops face punching really isnt the whole story.

Especially if there isn't face punching being done in that sparring session.