Soo Bahk Do Non-Contact Sparring, Should It Evolve to Light/Medium Contact?

[Rumy73]

Soo Bahk Do's free sparring and tournment sparring, I feel, leaves much to be desired. While I appreciate the emphasis on control and executing with proper form, the lack of contact is problematic, because it is like practicing holding a gun but never firing it. I am not talking having two people bash one another. Rather, I think learning to guard against a real attack and delivering strikes requires at least light contact. Facing "danger" is an important element in growing as a martial artist and as a practioner of self defense. While non-contact sparring is great for building control (and should be practiced), making contact with a moving target - that is also trying to strike you - is a lesson like no other.

As a martial artist I reflected on what SBD had done for me and my skills, and I felt a void. With a little reluctance, I moved on to Taekwondo. My teacher greatly respects traditional aspects of SBD, but encourages looking at things from other perspectives. When I began doing contact sparring, I got real education. I quickly realized how hard certain traditional techniques are to use against a moving target. I gained a healthy respect for distance and moving into the "danger zone" with courage. The purity and beauty of SBD movement is not part of the equation, but practical, efficient offense and defense is on tap.​

I expressed these feelings to my TKD teacher. He stated that traditional technique has a place but so does newer approaches. A martial artist should be open to embracing both and investigate how and when to apply them.​

So I am wondering how others feel? Is there any frustration with SBD's non-contact sparring? What approaches or roads, if others feel like I do/did, did you take?​

BTW, in my TKD dojang, our sparring is Olympic style. Hand techniques are limited to punches in the chest, and kicks are light/medium to the chest. Kicks to the head are generally restricted for safety reasons.​

 

[DMcHenry]

If you were the instructor you could run class how you want to, which can include light to moderate contact in sparring. If not and you are a student and want more contact, you would have to attend a school that trains the way you are looking for.

Each school is different (fyi... I'm not a SBD guy, but am TSD/TKD). I have seen some TKD dojangs that have absolutly no contact in sparring even while wearing head to toe gear. It's not always the style, but the instructor or org that dictates how hard (or lack of) contact there in in sparring.

Mac

 

[Montecarlodrag]

In my dojang we do contact sparring, but most of the time (specially children) is light contact.

The problem with contact sparring is liability. If somebody gets hurt, he/she blames the school or instructor. We haven't been sued (we're in Mexico) but a few upset parents have taken their children out from dojang and never returned because they got a bruise. So we only ask them to do ultra-light-contact sparring.

You can't learn how to fight without being punched in da face, but tell that to the parents
The boys today are made of crystal and you can't touch them or do anything to discipline them without risking a liability problem. Those disciplinary actions were normal when I grew up, but times change
I was beaten, kicked, punched and thrown countless times, many of them I got quite a few bruises and scratches. I have a few scars, and one time ended in the hospital because in a 2-vs-1 sparring I got kicked in the face, almost lost a few teeth and lost a lot of blood.

We do semi contact (the hardest you can go without severely hurting your classmate) for black belts and advanced gups, only for people who request it because we don't want problems. However we have lost a few good students who were kicked so hard they won't come back.

We can't afford to lose students because bills have to be paid. That's why contact sparing isn't a good idea.



BTW: Sparring gear is for puzzys JK

 

[Makalakumu]

It depends on the business and what kind of insurance you can get for your studio. Some types of insurance will only allow non-contact sparring. It costs more for contact. This can be a serious issue for a dojo...

 

[Manny]

In my dojang we do contact sparring, but most of the time (specially children) is light contact.

The problem with contact sparring is liability. If somebody gets hurt, he/she blames the school or instructor. We haven't been sued (we're in Mexico) but a few upset parents have taken their children out from dojang and never returned because they got a bruise. So we only ask them to do ultra-light-contact sparring.

You can't learn how to fight without being punched in da face, but tell that to the parents
The boys today are made of crystal and you can't touch them or do anything to discipline them without risking a liability problem. Those disciplinary actions were normal when I grew up, but times change
I was beaten, kicked, punched and thrown countless times, many of them I got quite a few bruises and scratches. I have a few scars, and one time ended in the hospital because in a 2-vs-1 sparring I got kicked in the face, almost lost a few teeth and lost a lot of blood.

We do semi contact (the hardest you can go without severely hurting your classmate) for black belts and advanced gups, only for people who request it because we don't want problems. However we have lost a few good students who were kicked so hard they won't come back.

We can't afford to lose students because bills have to be paid. That's why contact sparing isn't a good idea.



BTW: Sparring gear is for puzzys JK

Hi Montecarlodrag in what part of Mexico are you located. I'm from the seaport of Veracruz. Like you I've got several theet broken, nose broken,so much bruises and blisters, scars, etc,etc, from TKD sparring however in those days (1980-1990) I or my parents never sued my sambonim or my dojang cause it was understood that if you practiced a full contact sport or martial art there would be chances to been hurt.

In the dojang I go training these days,sambonim takes care of the children, however he would never tell us to pull a blow, if one gets a hard kick in the face it's because one don't cover the face and that's the students fault, not sambonim's or dojang's.

When need it, sambonim reprends the children even he strikes them with a palchagui or with a boken just to let them know that they are not behaving good, don't get me wrong sambonim does not beat the kids, he just correct them when need it.

Lets face it, if you play soccer there is a chance you can be hurt cause it's a cotact sport, the same is with TKD/TSD/Karate/Judo, so I really don't get how parents in USA take their children to a MA dojo/dojang specting their children will not kicked or punched or draged once in a while, sh...... some times happens.

Manny

 

[Hollywood1340]

If you ever want to evolve it out of martial fantasy land I'd say you better. We want to get hit IN the dojang, not out of it.

 

[Montecarlodrag]

Hi Montecarlodrag in what part of Mexico are you located. I'm from the seaport of Veracruz.

I'm in Chihuahua Chih.

I agree sparring must be hard. But a few years ago we had to close dojang because didn't have enough students to pay bills. It was the third time we had to close dojang since 1988.
When we re-opened the Dojang, we made a few changes to avoid this situation. Now we have 2 dojangs and doubled students's quantity. It's sad but true.

Now we choose some good students to form a small group to have a harder training, specially in contact sparring, self-defense and weapons.
So, if any student wants contact sparring and hard training, he/she can receive it. If not, he/she can attend normal class.

A few times after contact sparring with black belts, I was barely able to walk, had a lot of injuries, but I felt so good don't know why

 

[Manny]

I'm in Chihuahua Chih.

I agree sparring must be hard. But a few years ago we had to close dojang because didn't have enough students to pay bills. It was the third time we had to close dojang since 1988.
When we re-opened the Dojang, we made a few changes to avoid this situation. Now we have 2 dojangs and doubled students's quantity. It's sad but true.

Now we choose some good students to form a small group to have a harder training, specially in contact sparring, self-defense and weapons.
So, if any student wants contact sparring and hard training, he/she can receive it. If not, he/she can attend normal class.

A few times after contact sparring with black belts, I was barely able to walk, had a lot of injuries, but I felt so good don't know why

Asi que eres norteño, bueno yo soy sureño playero jajajaja, definitivamente la forma de hacer combate ha cambiado, cuando comence en TKD a principios de los 80's no usabamos nada de proteccion si acaso unas espinilleras y nada mas, hoy en dia se usa una armadura como la de los caballeros del zodiako jajajaja.

En mi dojnag se entrena duro y los catorrazos son a contacto pleno, usamos peto, careta,antebraceras y espinilleras, algunos usan concha y protector bucal.

De mis combates del pasado tube algunas lesiones serias, dientes rotos, nariz rota tambien recibi un knock out tremendo pero nunca ni mis padres ni yo culpamos al sambonim o a a escuela, yo sabia a lo que me metia cuando comence a aprender TKD.

Mi profesor actual es ex moo duk kwan, yo soy ex jido kwan y ambos sabemos que si no te cubres bien y bajas la guardia en el peor momento vas a salir lastimado.

Saludos desde Veracruz.

Manny

 

[Montecarlodrag]

Orale que bien.

Nosotros solamente usamos guantes y espinilleras. A los niños les ponemos caretas

Desgraciadamente la gente piensa muy diferente, y el 90% no regresa cuando salen lesionados. Hace 6 meses se salió de la escuela un cinta verde que recibió una patada y le lesionaron las costillas.
No se quejó ni nada, pero después de ese combate ya no volvió, y a las pocas semanas dejó de llevar a su hijo también. Era un alumno de esos que nunca faltan, se notó de inmediato la causa por la cual desertó.

Perdimos 2 alumnos con 1 sola patada, jajajajajaja

Con quien estaba tu profesor en Moo Duk Kwan, con Ramiro Guzman?


Saludos

 

[tsdclaflin]

Hand techniques are limited to punches in the chest, and kicks are light/medium to the chest. Kicks to the head are generally restricted for safety reasons.

I have trained under 4 different instructors in three states, mostly because of moves: CT, MT, PA.

Two have done contact sparring and 2 have done non-contact sparring. I teach non-contact sparring to my students but participate in light/medium contact tournaments. In my opinion, children should not learn contact sparring until they have "matured" in the martial arts.

I would recommend you finding a school that teaches contact sparring if you want to do that. Many TSD schools do contact sparring, some too much. I have been to tournaments dominated by Kenpo practitioners--they love to hit people! Their tournaments allow controlled groin shots. That was a good learning experience.

I have never liked Olympic sparring because I cannot punch to the face. I score to the face with both kicks AND punches in tournament sparring. When you learned distancing, I found it easy to transition from non-contact to contact and back from a technique perspective. I agree that mentally/emotionally, contact is a completely different game.

Find what works for you, have fun and be safe.

 

[mattkulma]

I have trained in Soo bahk Do for most of my life. Growing up we performed no contact sparring as a general rule, but i distinctly remember getting blasted a number of times to "help get me to move faster". It all depends on the student. I love contact and when my friends and I spar we tend to beat the hell out of eachother, but I wont go that hard with someone until they let me know they want to go there and they are ready for it. Some students are ready for it right out of the gate and others are never ready. you just have to play it by ear. When I get my dojang up and running I will teach no contact sparring as the rule and I will let the students show me they are ready for light contatct and so forth based on how they are training and how they react when acidents occur.

 

[Manny]

I think even the children must do cotact when sparring, can you imagine a blue belt for example who never kicks or punches hard enough? what would hapen when he will need to defend himself? or what about the same children who is not used to be kicked or punched? what will happen when some other kid punches him?? tears would run out of this blue belt.

In the dojang I tecah and train teh children are encouraged by sambonim to do full contact, yes the children wears hogu,helmet and shin pads, even forearm pads but full contact is allowed. When I sparr with the young studs I know they will chase me at full speed and force so I use a up guard and kick as hard as I can because I know my partener will kick me like hell. Yes it's true we try not to BEAT the sh....... out of the other but we use quick,starong and hard techs.

When I did crosstrain in americna kenpo karate I was amazed about point fighting, I loose all my bouths becasue the guy who hits first was the winner of the point, and no matter how good I kicked or punched if the other guy just slap me in the fore head with a paded backfist he was the winner, and I just got mad because I kicked the other guy with force and timming, latter I discered continuos fight and liked but point sparring is just a tag game!!

We are learning,training,practicing martial arts and we must know how to send a blow and how to absorv a blow, simple isn't it?

manny

 

[mattkulma]

I understand your point. When it comes to learning how to hit full force isn't that what bag and shield work are for, as well as breaking. I know people will say that breaking isn't real but I believe that it is a good tool to use so that students learn to condition their hands and feet for striking and how to transmit energy through the target to cause damage. When it comes to learning how to take a blow, holding a kicking shield in a line drill can teach you a lot especially when the people in line are really blasting the target. All of that said i do believe that contact does have a place in training because if you never get hit then you wont learn how to remain calm and stay focused on your objective after you get blasted.

Matt

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm of the firm belief that while control is certainly important, you also need to get hit once in a while. At our school (Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwan Do) we practice both non-contact and contact sparring. Lower ranks and kids generally have lighter contact, but adults at upper ranks are pretty much free to decide how much contact they want. There are some who prefer light contact, but most prefer moderate to heavy force. We're not breaking bones, but you'll feel it for a bit.

People need to get hit if they're going to train in a martial art. I've seen too many new students who drop to the floor from the lightest of taps. If you've never experienced pain, you will not be able to deal with it.

 

[Dana]

I know this will sound harsh, but sparring (in the context of learning how to defend yourself or hit an opponent) without contact, to me, is nothing more than martial dance class. You may learn to move well with the other person and "look" tough, but actual contact is where the rubber hits the road. The amount of contact is where the control is exercised. There is no practical/serious need to learn how to properly block if you're never going to get hit. Pre-arraigned one steps don't do it. You may never learn the proper distance to deliver an effective strike or even the proper alignment for hitting with force. Like others have said, you also never learn how to get hit and to move with a hit to minimize its impact. While others have said that many folks train as appropriate for their particular environment, in what environment do you practice self-defense without actually hitting each other or trying too? I understand liability can be an issue, but are you doing your children or adults any favors by training them in such a way? Personally, I don't think so. No one needs to train in a constantly dangerous environment, but training is what allows you to learn and if your training does not allow contact, what are you learning in this context?

 

[Makalakumu]

On the other hand, if you are completely honest about what you do and you tell your students that winning a trophy with this kind of sparring is not the same as fighting, what is the big deal? It's a sport, not a fight.

Here's the sparring that I include in my curriculum, btw. I only teach non-contact to white belts and have them demonstrate that they know how to do it at their green belt test.

Drilling and Testing

Understanding of Distance Layers _____ (green)
Understanding Types of Timing – Go no sen, sen, and sen no sen timing _____ (green)
Understanding of Superior Position _____ (green)
Demonstration of defense against random hand techniques _____ (green)
Demonstration of defense against random foot techniques _____ (green)
Demonstration of defense against random grabs _____ (red)
Demonstration of defense against random grab/strikes _____ (red)
Demonstration of defense against random hand or foot technique _____ (red)
Defense against any random technique _____ (brown)
Defense against two person attacks _____ (brown)
Defense against weapons _____ (black)

Sportive Sparring

Demonstration of non-contact sparring _____ (green)
Demonstration of contact in Sparring _____ (green)
Demonstration of randori _____ (red)
Demonstration of submission grappling _____ (red)
Demonstration of one up, one down sparring _____ (red)
Demonstration of randori with strikes _____ (brown)
Demonstration of open technique sparring _____ (brown)
Demonstration of sparring with multiple opponents _____ (brown)
Demonstration of sparring with Weapons _____ (black)
Demonstration of sparring Multiple People with Weapons _____ (black)

 

[Omar B]

Wouldn't it be nice if a group of TSD guys got together and went all Kyokushin with it how cool it would be? TSD has such great form and movement, I wish we got to see more of it in a hard style type environment.

 

[kbarrett]

I allow contact whether it's the children or the adults (teens also), I've always felt that you can't teach quality martial art skill (self-defense) without some contact sparring. I understand about the insurance, but I simply tell parents and students if their affraid to get hit in the dojang where sparrings controlled, then they"ll never surivie outside where the contact will be real and the aren't any rules, even in my tournament point can't be scored unless there's contact.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett