Somtimes they get it SoOOOOOO Wrong.

[dvcochran]

The swinging of the leg is murder on the knee when that that foot makes impact, the motion of the swing still sends stuff forward and out of the knee and the joints. You can kind of see it here in this screenshot where it looks like his knee is trying to bend side ways. This is what you'll always see me worry about when I see it here on MT. Knees aren't easy to repair, gotta take care of them.
View attachment 22518

I know she was really pumped after that "light bulb" came on and everything made sense.

Yes, but that is not at all how we do it. The video looks very different to me. His knee is coming up and driving more downward in the video. I not sure what you call that in the picture, except painful.

 

[dvcochran]

• Because the kick travels from the back to the front. There's no need to pull it back to cock the kick. You just move it forward.

• A kick that moves up doesn't mean it's a wind up. The level and striking service that someone chooses to use will vary depending on what they are targeting. If I' going to strike using my heel then I need to lift my knee in order to position kick to strike with the heel.

• This kick is also done on different levels. It doesn't have to hit above the kneed. It can target the shin or the ankle as well either horizontally or downward depending on the distance that the kick is done at.

Same kick, targeting lower. Notice there is no wind up. It's just like fighting with power hand back. No need to wind up the punch because it's already in a ready state. Same concept but with a kick. I only need to move my leg forward.

This kick is thrown when your opponent is putting weight on their front leg. When you kick at that moment, they cannot escape without shifting their weight. With other kicks, you are aiming for openings, so it doesn't matter if their front leg is rooted or not. With this kick it matters a great deal. If you were sparring with me, and I saw you try to defend against this kick then I would just attack your rooting leg. Low if you move your forward leg back and move your rear leg forward. I
will attack your rear leg as it is coming forward. Do this will guarantee that you won't escape. You can leg check all you want, but by doing so you give me a path to your standing leg, which is rooted. Again you won't be able to escape, until your other legs come down to help you shift weight to move. By then it's too late for you.


It's the same kick. Just like jab is a jab.I can jab you in your face, or I can jab you in the chest. If I take a lower stance, then I 'll be able to jab you in the abdomen.

The kick is faster than you think. If you have never had someone who is good with this kick then you wouldn't understand. These are slower kicks done in training..

As for your leg check. If you can check this kick then it means your other leg is close by. The standing leg is in range of this kick. The lower the stance the longer the range will be on this kick.

View attachment 22513

Still don't believe me. Here 's the distance before he lifted his leg. Look at how close the 2 legs are. He has more than enough range to reach the second leg.

View attachment 22516

If someone is going to kick down on the top of your thigh then all you have to do is lower your stance or shuffle back wards. Down strikes don't travel far so a shuffle backwars in a lowered stance will get you out of the rang. A lower stance also causes a downward kick to get a bad angle and the kick won't land solid.

I have to side with @skribs; a shin kick as shown and an oblique kick as shown are very different. In the shin kick they are really opening up the torso/lower body and, as you said, exposing the standing leg without giving the opponent a reason to back off. The oblique/check is thrown from a closed posture and should never expose the standing leg that much.
You can tell that the guys using the shin kicks are looking to get close to use their hands. Kickers are just not going to enter that way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can tell that the guys using the shin kicks are looking to get close to use their hands.

Hands have nothing to do with this type of kick. It's all about the proximity of legs. How close is your opponents legs to yours? Most of the time people don't pay attention to this unless they are going for a take down. Any other time the legs are really close.

In the video we are kicking shins because it's safer. It doesn't take much to hyper extend a knee and it's not worth it, just to say that you are kicking the kneed. The only different is what is being the targeted and the level of the kick. Your standing leg will almost always be close to your other leg unless you are kicking, because of the center of balance that's needed to stand on one leg. Stand in a horse stance or a bow and arrow stance, then stand on one leg. Your other leg will get closer to your standing leg.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's going to be rainy here until Saturday. I'll make the video then if not earlier.

Edit: And by the way. My issue about the original video wasn't about the kick. It was the defense against the kick that I didn't like.

 

[Martial D]

Good question.. I actually had to do a few to answer this one.
I'll answer this in the video.. I started to type it and it just made things more confusing. Short answer for this is that some martial arts drive power by pushing with the rear leg. Other's drive power by pivoting. This one uses the push with the leg. There's a lot more that goes into the power generation but this is pretty much the concept.

The second power generation has 3 methods. It is almost like the stomping that is done in this form. The concept is the same which is to generate stomping power within a short movement. Think of it like the "one inch punch" version for stomps.

The 2nd method is like a snap kick but with the heel. The heel snaps out as the leg hip moves forward and this creates the stomp.

The 3rd method pushes through like a teep.

All of this is much easier to show and explain on video.

LOL what's with the slap saki sound effects? Pretty hard to take seriously with the guy behind the camera stomping and clapping haha

 

[skribs]

That's why I said it's easier to show in the video. This is something that makes more sense when you can see it.. What the video of the guy stomping.and you'll see he's kicking into the ground. You wouldn't get the same sound when you free fall, and when you stomp you can feel the feedback travel back into your leg because the ground doesn't give. This short stomp is the similar to the short stomp I use with this kick. The only major different is that the kick is a horizontal stomp.

Upkicks are like stomping upward instead of downward

You have to keep in mind stomps don't always have to travel downward. Don't think so much of the name "stomp" focus more on the motion of a stomp and you'll discover that you can do the same motion or similar motion in various directions other than downwards. Think mechanics of the leg as it makes the stomping motion.
Similar mechanics see here. because of the way our legs are put together, there's only a few ways we can actually create a stomping movement.

The up kicks are different because you can push with your shoulders.

The down kick you show has a wind-up motion.

These videos are proving the opposite of your point.

 

[dvcochran]

That's why I said it's easier to show in the video. This is something that makes more sense when you can see it.. What the video of the guy stomping.and you'll see he's kicking into the ground. You wouldn't get the same sound when you free fall, and when you stomp you can feel the feedback travel back into your leg because the ground doesn't give. This short stomp is the similar to the short stomp I use with this kick. The only major different is that the kick is a horizontal stomp.

Upkicks are like stomping upward instead of downward

You have to keep in mind stomps don't always have to travel downward. Don't think so much of the name "stomp" focus more on the motion of a stomp and you'll discover that you can do the same motion or similar motion in various directions other than downwards. Think mechanics of the leg as it makes the stomping motion.
Similar mechanics see here. because of the way our legs are put together, there's only a few ways we can actually create a stomping movement.

Hands have nothing to do with this type of kick. It's all about the proximity of legs. How close is your opponents legs to yours? Most of the time people don't pay attention to this unless they are going for a take down. Any other time the legs are really close.

In the video we are kicking shins because it's safer. It doesn't take much to hyper extend a knee and it's not worth it, just to say that you are kicking the kneed. The only different is what is being the targeted and the level of the kick. Your standing leg will almost always be close to your other leg unless you are kicking, because of the center of balance that's needed to stand on one leg. Stand in a horse stance or a bow and arrow stance, then stand on one leg. Your other leg will get closer to your standing leg.

Hands, arms, lead side, angle, proximity, lean, bias, head position, etc... These and more have much to do with a check. I mentioned broadcasting in an earlier post. I see it completely opposite to what you are saying. It is all about the proximity of the hands/body.
Predominantly there are two fighters stances (each with bias), a boxer/wrestler stance and an up fighter as in Muay Thai. It would be hard and foolish to try to shin kick a wrestler because their body is so biased forward. Boxers will bias forward but not nearly as much.
An up fighter is going to stay too outside (feet too close together) for a shin/oblique kick to be high percentage.

I feel we are drifting off topic. I fully agree that the shin kick motion shown in the photo could be hard on the knee and the motion in the videos looks tippy-tappy.
In regards to either kick, what part of the foot are you using?

 

[dvcochran]

It's going to be rainy here until Saturday. I'll make the video then if not earlier.

Edit: And by the way. My issue about the original video wasn't about the kick. It was the defense against the kick that I didn't like.

I thought we were getting off topic. Hopefully you will expound the point in the video.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I thought we were getting off topic. Hopefully you will expound the point in the video.

Yeah, I really want to cover the issue I have with the defenses from that video first and then cover the body mechanics that I use in a separate video.

 

[skribs]

Yeah, I really want to cover the issue I have with the defenses from that video first and then cover the body mechanics that I use in a separate video.

I think we're on topic. You said the reason the defense sucks is because the technique sucks (paraphrasing). The technique is just as relevant as the defense to this discussion.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think we're on topic. You said the reason the defense sucks is because the technique sucks (paraphrasing). The technique is just as relevant as the defense to this discussion.

Not quite. The defense sucks because the kick isn't really thrown as they show in the video. The defense is based on an inaccurate understanding of how that kick is really executed. It's no different than basing a take down defense on an inaccurate understanding of how takedowns are really executed.

 

[skribs]

Not quite. The defense sucks because the kick isn't really thrown as they show in the video. The defense is based on an inaccurate understanding of how that kick is really executed. It's no different than basing a take down defense on an inaccurate understanding of how takedowns are really executed.

You're still confusing "2 different kicks" with "that kick isn't correct".

 

[JowGaWolf]

You're still confusing "2 different kicks" with "that kick isn't correct".

How is it 2 different kicks?

 

[skribs]

How is it 2 different kicks?

One is a stomp down, one is a snap out.

Same way an axe kick and crescent kick are different, a roundhouse and side kick are different, a hook and uppercut are different.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One is a stomp down, one is a snap out.

Same way an axe kick and crescent kick are different, a roundhouse and side kick are different, a hook and uppercut are different.

My kick isn't a snap out. You can't generate this amount of power with just a snap out. If you watch the slow motion version of the kick at the end you can see how I not only stomp into the bag, but I also push through it as my entire leg extends forward.

The bag that I'm kicking is a heavy bag.It's not some light weight punching bag that easily moves..

 

[pdg]

I think what's going on here is you're basing your opinion on

My kick isn't a snap out.

but, there's nothing to say that the video or other opinions are based on 'your' kick.

I'd say there are at least 3 different kicks that could look superficially the same in stills or in slo-mo (demo speed).

One is like you're thinking - a power 'stomp' sort of thing. An outright attack move.

Another is more of a snap out. Less of an intent for actual damage, either a distraction thing or defensive itself, or a possible tripping move - or something else.

A third is like a quick placement, predominantly to arrest the movement of the opponent's leg. Defence only really, but part of a setup and maybe a kind of feint move.

And then there are others that could look the same, but are different techniques with different intent.


So yeah, based on your kick performed in the way you do it, it's possibly a very wrong way of dealing with it.

But a defence against your kick is possibly a very wrong way of dealing with any of the other options...

 

[dvcochran]

My kick isn't a snap out. You can't generate this amount of power with just a snap out. If you watch the slow motion version of the kick at the end you can see how I not only stomp into the bag, but I also push through it as my entire leg extends forward.

The bag that I'm kicking is a heavy bag.It's not some light weight punching bag that easily moves..

Great video & post. The profile angle really helps.
The first think I see that is different in mechanics from an out fighters kick is how (how little)you use the upper body and hips, at least on the particular kick. That is more akin to a true check for an out fighter.
Because the motion leading up to the kick is rather subtle I could see where being very effective on someone not anticipating the possibility of the kick, (a street kick for example). If I saw your foot coming forward like that I would simply be moving back with you most of the time. Because you knee is not coming up my guard would stay low.
I think I understand you shin kick more and see it as something that could be very effective with a pair of boots on, smacking and possibly raking down the shin. Because the bag slides, even though it's heavy which I appreciate, it is still hard to tell whether it could be a bone breaker. But is that even the intent? Or is it intended as more of a check or distraction for a lead-in?

The wide stance you are starting from would be an indicator a kick is coming unless you had been doing everything from that stance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Great video & post. The profile angle really helps.
The first think I see that is different in mechanics from an out fighters kick is how (how little)you use the upper body and hips, at least on the particular kick. That is more akin to a true check for an out fighter.
Because the motion leading up to the kick is rather subtle I could see where being very effective on someone not anticipating the possibility of the kick, (a street kick for example). If I saw your foot coming forward like that I would simply be moving back with you most of the time. Because you knee is not coming up my guard would stay low.
I think I understand you shin kick more and see it as something that could be very effective with a pair of boots on, smacking and possibly raking down the shin. Because the bag slides, even though it's heavy which I appreciate, it is still hard to tell whether it could be a bone breaker. But is that even the intent? Or is it intended as more of a check or distraction for a lead-in?

The wide stance you are starting from would be an indicator a kick is coming unless you had been doing everything from that stance.

The kick is intended for damage. If I wanted to check my opponent and stop his forward movement the I could do the same kick but aim it higher. A lot of the times it comes from the lead foot. If it needs more power then I need to give my leg more distance to travel. Sort of like you have the 1-inch punch vs a Haymaker. If you want to KO someone with a punch then giving that punch a little more distance will help to generate that power. Power punches and kicks often travel the longest distance.

The thing I don't want to do is raise my knee so high that it kills the previous momentum. With check kicks. The kick doesn't have to be powerful. I just has to land solid.

If I was in a competion, or a fight then I want this kick to hurt and cause damage. I want my opponent to have hesitation about advancing. I want him to be more concerned about having his leg damaged from the kick, than trying to attack me. If he's thinking about avoiding the kick then he's not really focused on hitting me.

The only way to get his mind to that point is to make it hurt. This however doesn't mean you can use it as a check.. I've always used as a check in training with a little sting. Some times I just place it with no sting, gentle like a baby.

The wide stance that I take allows to drive the kick more horizontally when I'm targeting shins. The kick also is most like to travel under a person's field of vision.

If I want to rake the shin then I need to take a higher stance and be closer. I want to rake downward on the shin and continue that motion until my Foot stomps the ankle or foot.

I punch and kick at any stance height. So you wouldn't be able to tell if I was going to kick just by looking at my stance height. I can kick and "move backwards at the same time" It just depends on the situation and what my opponent is doing.

 

[Anarax]

I was looking for a picture of a low kick for a different post and came across this video. This is defense against the "Oblique kick" and the defenses here are garbage.

1. The kick is extremely quick and it usually happens in a moments notice. There's no wind up to it.
2. Unlike other kicks, this kick works because the attacker is waiting for you to be in the worst possible position to defend against it, which is usually bearing weight on the lead leg.
3. This is a high success rate technique. The only reason it doesn't work is because the person doing it sucks at it.
4. This kick targets the rooting leg, So trying to leg check it is just going to make me go after that nice one leg stance

The kick doesn't always have to "stomp down" an a person's leg. I shoot my kick out horizontally to strike the shins.Which causes internal damage to the calf muscle.as the shock from the kick literally bounces the muscle away from the bone.and then slams the muscle back into the bone. (I learned this the hard way).

These defenses do not and will not work against someone who knows how to use this kick.

This stuff reminds me of some Kung Fu stuff where the guys make assumptions about defending against a strike and just say, "yeah all you have to do, is do this" and it's never based on the experience of having to deal with that particular strike.

Lesson to learn: Do do this stuff if you are trying to defend against that type of kick. You'll lose every time if the person is good and you'll put yourself in more danger

It seems that you and Shane(guy in video) are referring to different kicks. Your kick(demonstrated in your video) is different than what Shane is doing. There might me some similarities, but the mechanics/emphasis are different. I've seen both kicks taught and both have their own applications. Shane doesn't "suck" at the kick because he's throwing it differently, it's a different kick altogether. The oblique kick has been proven to be an effective technique in MMA, it's not "wrong" nor an "incorrect" version of your kick.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Shane doesn't "suck" at the kick because he's throwing it differently,

I do this all kick all the time so I have a good understanding of the approach that's needed for it to be successful.
I just made a video for you guys. I'm getting read to do some edits on it because I didn't try to make it perfect the first time around. Easier to just teach it like I teach a class