Something Odd

[SKB]

Jotoshi-thank you for your post!!

eyebeams?

I believe Quest allows Toshindo to be taught.....

If you don't want to perform ceremonies associated with a belief system outside of your heritage and personal invention, you are categorically unsuited for Toshindo or any Ninpo schools, period. Toshindo uses Americanized Tendai as part of its teaching structure and the Bujinkan has its own elements.

"catagorically unsuited" I train with people of all faiths in TSD???? Also where I train at if......if you were uncomfortable with somthing like this no one would want you to do it nor make you feel bad if you wish to not do it!!!!!!!!!

The godan (5th degree) test is based on your supposed ESP. Or Hatsumi's. Or something.

I beleive it is founded on your ability to detect the intent of the attacker to cleve your head into.

 

[Jutoshi]

LegLockGuy,

I would be happy to answer your questions.

1. I feel that the style of Jizaikan is very well rounded. Our basic philosophy is that of going on the offensive as soon as possible. We do all types of striking, inside and outside as well as throws, locks, breaks, submissions, ground fighting, historical ninja and samurai weapons as well as modern day weapons training. I feel that we teach a lot more advanced techniques earlier in the curriculum than To-Shin Do does. I was a senior instructor for To-Shin Do and ran a Quest center for 3 years. The system of Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu teaches white belts and above how to throw and lock up your opponent with all of the techniques taught. It is dangerous to strike someone and throw them away so that they can get back up and come at you again. There are techniques in Aiki Ninjutsu that our students learn as yellow belts that To-Shin Do teaches as Sandan techniques.

I have found the aiki principles that have been added to the ninjutsu techniques make them even more effective with even less effort required to finish an attacker. I have always been a ninjutsu practitioner that used the least amount of force necessary to take control of a situation and that is how I received my warrior name of Jutoshi "Warrior of the supple or gentle blade" because I use correct form and taijutsu instead of strength and speed to win.

2. Do we compete? No we are not about competition. Competition actually is the opposite of what we train on because it is ego driven and we work on getting rid of our ego. If my students want to compete that is up to them. I actually have a student who was almost accepted to Pride before it was sold and disbanded. I was supposed to go and help out at the fight. I am not against MMA, I just don't see that as real warrior training. Fighters and warriors are different mentalities. I am a warrior and have never been interested in being a fighter. You can read an article on my opinions on this subject on my MySpace page.

3. When Kancho Maienza created the Jizaikan he wanted to keep it traditional and have 9 kyu ranks. We figured that it would suit American students better to have the "rainbow belts" found in other popular martial arts. Our rank system goes White, Yellow, Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, Red, Brown, Brown w/black stripe and black. We have 10 degrees of dan ranks and 10th degree is actually a white belt with blue kanji and writing to symbolize making a full circle. At each Kyu level the student is working on a specific "secret" or skill set that they must internalize before they move on to the next level. There are 36 secrets in our system. 4 sets of 9. The first set is on doing strong and effective techniques. The second is on how to "destroy" an opponent. The third is on dealing with multiple attackers and the last 9 are on leading an empowered life. This is what Mr. Maienza has brought to Ninjutsu. These are the lessons he has learned from training with all of the Shihan in Ninjutsu and also his training in the other martial arts he has black belts in. This is a systematic way of teaching students things that only a few people have been able to "steal" from the Bujinkan and To-Shin Do systems.

4. I don't have any ranking or official training in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu so I can't say how much has been blended into the techniques. All I can say is that training with Mr. Maienza has taken my martial arts abilities to a level I never thought possible. We teach all of the Ninjutsu techniques from all of the Ryu Ha. At Shodan our students have to memorize and demonstrate the entire Koto Ryu Shoden scroll without looking at notes as well as the Kuki Shin Kuji No Bo katas. At each black belt level the students will study a different lineage and be responsible for internalizing the material.

The whole idea of Jizaikan is Honor, Integrity and Mastery. There are too many students in the other organizations that have been given belts and have not mastered anything. This is the reason that the Jizaikan was formed. I know that it might be a fantasy but wouldn't it be neat if when you saw someone with a black belt you knew that they deserved it?

5. We do not do any sport sparring. We do Randori though. We have designated attackers and defenders but we work up to real life situations such as being in a ground fight and the attacker pulls a knife or gun or has friends who jump in and start fighting. In our black belt classes we use head gear and gloves along with other protective gear so that we can go quicker and still be safe.

I hope this answers your questions.

I enjoy sharing information about Ninjutsu and Aiki Ninjutsu. The best way to learn about something is to experience it. I have had quite a few Bujinkan and To Shin Do students train with me and all of them have left feeling like they have learned something. I feel that way with Mr. Maienza and as long as he is willing and has things to teach me I am going to "steal" from him as much as I can and pass it on to as many students as I can!

Be Safe and Have Fun!
Jutoshi

 

[eyebeams]

Jotoshi-thank you for your post!!

"catagorically unsuited" I train with people of all faiths in TSD???? Also where I train at if......if you were uncomfortable with somthing like this no one would want you to do it nor make you feel bad if you wish to not do it!!!!!!!!!

All I'm saying is that if a student is opposed to absorbing an ideology or ethos or repeating a vow or creed, ninpo isn't the way to go. You could remove any creeds or dojo kun, but with Toshindo, the ranking structure is based on esoteric Buddhist pedagogy and symbolism. It really depends on the individual's tolerance. But I will say that if someone has problems with making a wholly secular statement about their commitment to the school's practices, how much tolerance are they going to have for the rest of it?

Being in business doesn't mean that the teacher capitulates to the student in all aspects of instruction.

I beleive it is founded on your ability to detect the intent of the attacker to cleve your head into.

Enh. I've also read that it's about the student specifically reading Hatsumi's intent, even when the actual test is delivered by somebody else.

 

[SKB]

Ok you lost me??? I train in TSD, nobody has thrust anything down my throat or forced me to give up or alter my personal beliefs??? I have been training for several years now so I'm not "new".

Are not all the diffrent forms/styles/systems of martial arts based off of someone elses idea of how to present the information or the manner in which the world interacts? Someone thought starting with a white belt was a good idea. So we should toss out all martial arts who use a white belt as a starting point since some guy some where came up with the idea??? Should we wear gi's if these are not the clothes our society does not wear? Maybe we should toss out all martial arts which wear clothing not like ours???

Where I train at the instructors have their "real" jobs to feed themselves and the Dojo has more of an extended family feel then a business feel to the place.

......the teacher capitulates to the student in all aspects of instruction

I never said anything along these lines and I apoligize if this is the way it came across. There are standards of skill level, for lack of a better way of saying it, but you are not made to do things you do not want to do. Such as, if you do not want to preform a drill due to an injury nobody is going to try and force you. Not into the meditation thing? OK don't meditate. The art is yours, to make it yours.

 

[rutherford]

We teach all of the Ninjutsu techniques from all of the Ryu Ha.

You don't have to say anything more for me to be absolutely sure that you are a liar.

 

[Jutoshi]

By "all of the Ryu Ha" I was referring to all of the lineages that have been taught so far by Soke Hatsumi. Anyone who is a legitimate ninjutsu practitioner knows that there are those lineages that have not been taught out of the nine that Hatsumi is Soke of.

We actually teach Kuki Shin Ryu as well as Kuki Shinden Ryu. The Kuki Shin family is still around and teaching even though the Bujinkan normally teaches the techniques that Takamatsu wrote down after the scrolls burned. There are quite a few differences.

To call someone a liar is an easy thing to do when you are on the other side of a monitor. Now you know why I try not to spend too much time in forums. A lot of "experts" with attitudes. I prefer to spend my time training instead of arguing with these "knowledgeable people".

I hope you all enjoy your training in whatever style of martial arts you decide to study. Every style has something to offer.

 

[eyebeams]

Ok you lost me??? I train in TSD, nobody has thrust anything down my throat or forced me to give up or alter my personal beliefs??? I have been training for several years now so I'm not "new".

The poster I responded to said he didn't want to say the dojo kun ("warrior creed" or whatever). Somebody who can't bring themselves to say the dojo kun is likely to have much less tolerance than most people for working with other people's philosophies.

Aside from that, it's based on your definition of "personal beliefs." I seriously doubt a hardline fundamentalist Christian could tolerate TSD for long, since its structure is based on what fundamentalists believe to be Satanic.

My point is that no teacher is responsible for the variety of standards in North American culture. An abstract "warrior creed" is not a legitimate basis to criticize a school unless it includes something really dumb, like vowing to give 10% of your income to the teacher or something. If it's not like that and you still don't want to say it, you don't complain -- you just don't attend.

Where I train at the instructors have their "real" jobs to feed themselves and the Dojo has more of an extended family feel then a business feel to the place.

I don't think the model makes much of a difference. There are a lot of dysfunctional "families" out there and a lot of excellent professional teachers.

 

[Raizan]

You don't have to say anything more for me to be absolutely sure that you are a liar.

Real classy there guy...and what info do you have to back up your statement? Do you have facts, or just some personal beliefs or opinions? More importantly, just what did Jutoshi say that you found to be so false? I would hope that it's something substantial, seeing as to how you are assaulting a man's integrity and character.

 

[Raizan]

If you look at Tom Maienza's profile you can see that he is only a 4th degree in the Bujinkan. In order to teach anything I think you should at least be a 5th degree. It says something about a student that doesn't want to be tested, weather they believe in the testing system or not. No, rank is not everything, but if you want to learn authentic ninjutsu you have to go to the source.

If you are that concerned about rank, and the ever important 5th degree, then you should know that Tom Maienza was a 5th dan under Stephen Hayes himself, and was Hayes' first Hambu Shihan. To be honest to make light of someone for ONLY being a 4th degree (when you yourself claim to be an amature) doesn't seem to be very responsible. I have had the oppurtunity to train with Mr. Maienza as well as Jutoshi on quite a few occasions and they are both skilled and well rounded individuals, and I have enjoyed my time training with them. I'm sorry that your experiences were not up to your lofty standards, but as a practicing Martial artist for the past 17 years, I can say that I learned more in 6 months at that school than I did in 6 years at other more well known schools! I'm not sure what you mean by going to the source, as both Jutoshi and Mr. Maienza are well respected in the Ninpo community.

Just thought I'd share, you have all heard two opposing viewpoints. If you're sitting on the fence why don't you stop on by to the school and check it out ... And Wordz,I hope you find enjoyment at some dojo / dojang out there.

 

[jks9199]

The poster I responded to said he didn't want to say the dojo kun ("warrior creed" or whatever). Somebody who can't bring themselves to say the dojo kun is likely to have much less tolerance than most people for working with other people's philosophies.

Aside from that, it's based on your definition of "personal beliefs." I seriously doubt a hardline fundamentalist Christian could tolerate TSD for long, since its structure is based on what fundamentalists believe to be Satanic.

My point is that no teacher is responsible for the variety of standards in North American culture. An abstract "warrior creed" is not a legitimate basis to criticize a school unless it includes something really dumb, like vowing to give 10% of your income to the teacher or something. If it's not like that and you still don't want to say it, you don't complain -- you just don't attend.

Just how is the basis of Tang Soo Do, Toshindo, or any other martial art "Satanic?" I'd accept pagan, especially for arts with a greater religious component, but saying "Satanic" is more than a bit of stretch.

I don't see a problem with school creeds or other statements of tenets and principles in general. In specific cases -- maybe. As you suggest, if you don't agree with the philosophy or moral principles in a given martial art, go elsewhere.

 

[eyebeams]

Just how is the basis of Tang Soo Do, Toshindo, or any other martial art "Satanic?" I'd accept pagan, especially for arts with a greater religious component, but saying "Satanic" is more than a bit of stretch.

It's not my religion, so don't ask me for it to make sense. But it's a fact that Toshindo includes symbolism derived from esoteric Buddhism and according to fundamentalist dogma, that's Satanic.

 

[SKB]

eyebeams, let me see if I got this right........ you do not train in TSD? Have you ever? You are not christian?

It's not my religion, so don't ask me for it to make sense. But it's a fact that Toshindo includes symbolism derived from esoteric Buddhism and according to fundamentalist dogma, that's Satanic.

Yet you have some very strong ideas about both? I'm sorry did I miss something? I'm not going to tell you all about basket weaving since I do not know a dang thing about it and have never taken one lesson on it! Just like I wouldn't make any assumptions about an eskimo's religion since I do not practice it.

Many people at my dojo practice different religions and choose to take part in some parts of the spiritual practice of TSD and not others, but that is up to the individual. There is not judgement or rule on what is right or wrong. To call any part of it satanic is realy just ............ I wont get insulting.........

 

[bydand]

Aside from that, it's based on your definition of "personal beliefs." I seriously doubt a hardline fundamentalist Christian could tolerate TSD for long, since its structure is based on what fundamentalists believe to be Satanic.

Member of the 1st school other than Dayton to make the switch to TSD from the Bujinkan and still counting, so I don't know how much longer I can tolerate it.

It's not my religion, so don't ask me for it to make sense. But it's a fact that Toshindo includes symbolism derived from esoteric Buddhism and according to fundamentalist dogma, that's Satanic.

OK, eyebeams this is where you go horribly wrong with your preconceived ideas. I happen to enjoy training in To-Shin-Do, I also happen to have been raised in a "hardline fundamentalist Christian" household and still hold those beliefs. My younger brother also trains TSD, not only does he train in TSD, but has been an instructor for many years as well. He started teaching the children's classes under John Poliquin and Brett Varnum when they both were still in Presque Isle, ME. He now owns his own school and still teaches TSD after practicing the art from it's "roll-out" when the switch was made from Bujinkan to TSD. How does this all add up with the family you may ask? Well, my Mother and Father (who is an ordained minister in a Fundamentalist Christian Church) happens to NEVER miss a promotion or special time at the Dojo, and backs up the training 100%. Does that mean we happen to believe Buddhism is the way to go? No it doesn't, it just means we are mature enough to look past the rhetoric spewed by a few and look with our own eyes, opened and seeing, and make an informed decision. Satanic?- not unless you make it that way. Same as a dollar bill or anything else you can think of; anything can be "evil" or "satanic" if used wrong or abused to the point of obsession.

 

[LegLockGuy]

Jutoshi I have one problem with one of your answers. I could not find any fighter listing Jizaikan as their fighting style. You said one of your students was going to fight in PRIDE FC. What is his name and what was his fight record.

 

[Jutoshi]

LegLockGuy,

I talked with my student to find out more information to answer the questions you had and this is what I received...

"I was in contact with Turi Altavilla of Dream Stage Entertainment (the former parent company of PRIDE). Originally, I was shooting for the PRIDE spin off series called The B.E.S.T. but they only did 2 shows. Turi was the one who asked me to send in my information as well as a video of myself in action. Since then, I have been in contact with ICON, and I am hoping to get my opportunity when I get better. (He is referring to medical conditions he has to get taken care of.)

As for my record,…I claimed 12 on my K-1 Heroes application…And just so that guy knows, I always listed my style as Ninjutsu which is why he would never see a Jizaikan fighter listed. There is also the fact that since I never officially fought in PRIDE, I would not be listed on their roster.

Hope that helps..."
Out of respect I am not going to give out his name since I didn't ask for his permission first.
I personally do not follow MMA too closely so I am not too familiar with the different organizations and such. I, like a lot of people today, enjoy watching UFC, Pride and other MMA contests but I am not a sport martial artist.


I can tell you that my student above also practices submission fighting at another school to help him prepare for the fights.


Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu covers basic ground fighting techniques in the event a student finds themselves on the ground with a person they do not want to harm such as a friend or relative. If you are attacked by an unknown assailant, I would not recommend trying to submit them and play to their strengths. The statistic in the U.S. is that if a male is attacked it is usually 3 on 1. If you are on the ground trying to ground fight someone their 2 friends will be kicking and stomping you if not something worse like stabbing you. We teach to get up as soon as possible and do what you need to do to escape.

Hope this helps with the questions you had.

Jutoshi

 

[Jac1972]

Wow, was interesting to find this thread. I ran a google search to see if a jizaikan center had opened in Missouri for my sister-in-law and found this link. I've read through the post and hope nothing else has come of this. Mike is a great guy. I trained with him at the Naperville Quest Center for about 6 months before it became Warriors Edge, and then for about 2 years thereafter. I always found him to be incredibly knowledgable and the consumate professional. For anyone who may get this post, all I can say about the jizaikan system is that when I moved away from the area and had to stop taking classes I sincerely felt a loss. I tried taking akido classes and grappling classes, but it was not the same. No school that I have tried teaches as much as Warriors Edge. At this dojo I was able to be very involved - attended classes 3 to 4 days per week for 3 to 4 classes each day I was there and during those classes I learned more in the first 6 weeks than I ever did in the 6 months I trained in toshindo.

I can assure anyone who decides to try jizaikan that you will not be disappointed. There are things Mike teaches at Warriors Edge that no one else in this area teaches - particularly weapons training. The grappling class I took was good, but not nearly as educational - I learned much more, much faster with Mike.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Wow, was interesting to find this thread. I ran a google search to see if a jizaikan center had opened in Missouri for my sister-in-law and found this link. I've read through the post and hope nothing else has come of this. Mike is a great guy. I trained with him at the Naperville Quest Center for about 6 months before it became Warriors Edge, and then for about 2 years thereafter. I always found him to be incredibly knowledgable and the consumate professional. For anyone who may get this post, all I can say about the jizaikan system is that when I moved away from the area and had to stop taking classes I sincerely felt a loss. I tried taking akido classes and grappling classes, but it was not the same. No school that I have tried teaches as much as Warriors Edge. At this dojo I was able to be very involved - attended classes 3 to 4 days per week for 3 to 4 classes each day I was there and during those classes I learned more in the first 6 weeks than I ever did in the 6 months I trained in toshindo.

I can assure anyone who decides to try jizaikan that you will not be disappointed. There are things Mike teaches at Warriors Edge that no one else in this area teaches - particularly weapons training. The grappling class I took was good, but not nearly as educational - I learned much more, much faster with Mike.

Hope this is helpful.

Thanks for the info and welcome to Martial Talk!