In all fairness. I think i'm using the message board for what its intended for. People share thier opinions all day on here. I'm just giving a review of the school, what i think about the character of the people that run it and its just my opinion. Call it bashing, i call it criticism. Take it how ever you want, but if you want to go see for yourself.
Something Odd
- Thread starter LegLockGuy
- Start date
bydand
Senior Master
In a way, but considering that was your first post and this is your second post, I fail to see how on Earth you would know how THIS board is used and what is considered the "right" way. Yes this is a great forum for sharing ideas and information, but, while it does happen from time to time, it is not for fraud busting or calling into question a schools instruction or curriculum.
Yes we do, and I also share my opinion. Again though, when somebody digs up a thread that has sat idle for months and their first post is slamming a school and Instructor, one has to wonder just what the agenda is. Frankly, with a first post like that, I cannot give it much credibility.
It doesn't really matter what it is called, or what word is used to describe it. Kind of goes back to that old saying about how a rose would still be a rose by any other name. You can call a sewer a hot-tub, still doesn't make me want to get in and sit by one of the "jets".
Make an introduction in the meet & greet section, let us get to know you and your background a bit. This is truly a great forum, and there is a vast amount of information to share, just digging up an old thread and then raking the school and Instructors over the coals, isn't sharing information, it IS bashing.
This is the deal, as I see it...
You have every right to have an opinion about the school and teacher based on your experience. And it's clear that, for you, it was a very, very negative experience. You've the right to share your opinion, as well...
But you can do so in a way that is respectful to everyone... or you can do it like the loudmouth ******* in a bar who pisses everyone off by "sharing" their opinion on anything and everything, and trying to win arguments by volume, not reasoning. But, somehow, I suspect that you probably haven't been in a bar legally yet.
I encourage you to persevere in finding someone who teaches martial arts the way you want to learn them. There are many resources to find any of the various ninjutsu/ninpo/budo taijutsu systems available here on MT, if you look. Good hunting!
WORDZ3,
Be aware that not all people who train there will end up unhappy. The fact there are some students already training there indicate that some are happy with what they're getting. Everyone trains for different reasons. If you do not like it there, then I suggest you go find a martial art school elsewhere more suitable to your preference.
- Ceicei
Be aware that not all people who train there will end up unhappy. The fact there are some students already training there indicate that some are happy with what they're getting. Everyone trains for different reasons. If you do not like it there, then I suggest you go find a martial art school elsewhere more suitable to your preference.
- Ceicei
I find it highly amusing that anyone believes that Hatsumi primarily made his living at bonesetting after the 1980s.
lalom
Green Belt
yeah, is this guy against Ninjutsu as a whole? Bujinkan Budo? To-Shin Do? It's really hard to tell.
He comes on bashing one school and calls another entirely different art shady referring to it's Grandmaster that is a chiropractor. What was the point of this guys post? Kinda confused here...
bydand
Senior Master
Actually I didn't ding him for his opinion at all. I dinged him for the belligerent and confrontational way he presented it. I don't care for a few Instructors in our art either, but would NEVER come on a public forum and light them up, I would just choose not to train with them and let it go.
If somebody asks me about them I will, and HAVE, given my opinion of the art and how instructor/student relationships are important. Then tell them to go check it out for themselves and if it doesn't feel like a match, here are a couple of other instructors that are close to the area and to try them as well. There is no reason to start a crusade on a forum against someone whom I have a personality conflict with, or a personal belief they are not doing "it" (teaching) for the right reasons.
I don't think the guy was starting a crusade or anything like that. He was upset about what he preceived had happened and was venting. I personaly wanted to know the 'whys'. Maybe he just needed to get it off his chest.
Who cares if he did not follow what some might think is the proper etiquette? Maybe dude just needed someone to exsplain a few things to him. But now he probaly has a bad taste in his mouth about this forum and the people on it and might not read the one peice of information he needed to go on with his training or find someone else to train with. So let's try to lay off dinging people unless they really do something? Not just them doing or saying something you take the wrong way?
Who cares if he did not follow what some might think is the proper etiquette? Maybe dude just needed someone to exsplain a few things to him. But now he probaly has a bad taste in his mouth about this forum and the people on it and might not read the one peice of information he needed to go on with his training or find someone else to train with. So let's try to lay off dinging people unless they really do something? Not just them doing or saying something you take the wrong way?
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
Hey, I heard Hatsumi-sensei say it himself after he said to be careful who you train with. Someone asked why he didn't do something about the less-than instructors in the Bujinkan. He said,"Why would I? The 'bad' teachers attract the 'bad' students, & then we don't have to deal with them, neh?"
bydand
Senior Master
Which is what I tried to do twice.
You do it your way, I'll do it my way thank you. I do not give out dings very often, but I will when I think they are deserved. NOT when they say things I take the wrong way either, usually when they continue to press a point that is designed to stir the pot.
Looking back at my original post I think I came across a little harsh. So please forgive me for that. Any comments i made are strickly my opinion and thats it. Here are some specific reasons why this school left a bad taste in my mouth.
1. Being new to martial arts I assumed anything with "ninjutsu" attatched to it was teaching the art based off of Hatsumi's teachings. This school advertises "aiki-ninjutsu". Come to find out, this school is actually NOT associated with Hatsumi and thus in my opinion not teaching what Hatsumi is teaching in Japan. Also come to find out that the previous To-Shin-Do school (Quest Center) folded into this one. (Again not what I wanted). To top it all off the head guy started his own "aiki-ninjutsu" style called "jizaikan" or something and started the school out of the protest against the Bujinkan school. (I hope this makes sense why i would be unsatisfied) I wish the history of the school and instructors would have been made known a little more upfront. Yes..its on the website, but not something they highlight.
2. Most of these guys are only 4th degree black belts in Budo taijutsu. They apparently had a problem with the ranking system, but yet still wear thier belts and stripes. Huh?
2. Contracts. Although nice from a business standpoint, bad from a training standpoint. People should show up to train because they want to, not because they have to. And my point from the previous post was that I feel art of any form, should never be tainted by money.
3. Training was divided up into "beginners" and "black belt clubs". So beginners only got to train with other beginners. Rarely ever did we switch up partners and rarely did I ever get to train with more advanced students. Something which I think prohibits growth on both ends. We really all have something to learn from each other don't we?
4. I actually found myself training with 12 yr olds. I'm 30...does this make sense? I actually didn't speak up about this and continued my training, but I would expect the teacher to do something. I wasn't paying to "play fight".
5. They had us repeating this "creed" and "code" ********. Sorry, I have my own creed and code that i repeat on a daily basis. Again, we would do more talking than training in this 45 min sessions. Oh and once that 45min clock was up...class is over. (its called clock watching and common in McDojos)
6. No one really talked to each other here. Didn't seem very friendly..and how could it be when your partner really doesn't want to be there, but is pissed off he has to be there because he's paying for it with his locked in contract?
I didn't mean to "light" anyone up. If your gonna treat things like a business, then be prepared to get critiqued just like a business. Just like if I go to a restaurant and they give bad service I'm gonna tell all my friends not to go to this restaurant. If you want to...see for yourself. Don't take my word for it. Its just my opinion again. I think the way someone runs their business does reflect something about their character so I'll let that speak for itself.
1. Being new to martial arts I assumed anything with "ninjutsu" attatched to it was teaching the art based off of Hatsumi's teachings. This school advertises "aiki-ninjutsu". Come to find out, this school is actually NOT associated with Hatsumi and thus in my opinion not teaching what Hatsumi is teaching in Japan. Also come to find out that the previous To-Shin-Do school (Quest Center) folded into this one. (Again not what I wanted). To top it all off the head guy started his own "aiki-ninjutsu" style called "jizaikan" or something and started the school out of the protest against the Bujinkan school. (I hope this makes sense why i would be unsatisfied) I wish the history of the school and instructors would have been made known a little more upfront. Yes..its on the website, but not something they highlight.
2. Most of these guys are only 4th degree black belts in Budo taijutsu. They apparently had a problem with the ranking system, but yet still wear thier belts and stripes. Huh?
2. Contracts. Although nice from a business standpoint, bad from a training standpoint. People should show up to train because they want to, not because they have to. And my point from the previous post was that I feel art of any form, should never be tainted by money.
3. Training was divided up into "beginners" and "black belt clubs". So beginners only got to train with other beginners. Rarely ever did we switch up partners and rarely did I ever get to train with more advanced students. Something which I think prohibits growth on both ends. We really all have something to learn from each other don't we?
4. I actually found myself training with 12 yr olds. I'm 30...does this make sense? I actually didn't speak up about this and continued my training, but I would expect the teacher to do something. I wasn't paying to "play fight".
5. They had us repeating this "creed" and "code" ********. Sorry, I have my own creed and code that i repeat on a daily basis. Again, we would do more talking than training in this 45 min sessions. Oh and once that 45min clock was up...class is over. (its called clock watching and common in McDojos)
6. No one really talked to each other here. Didn't seem very friendly..and how could it be when your partner really doesn't want to be there, but is pissed off he has to be there because he's paying for it with his locked in contract?
I didn't mean to "light" anyone up. If your gonna treat things like a business, then be prepared to get critiqued just like a business. Just like if I go to a restaurant and they give bad service I'm gonna tell all my friends not to go to this restaurant. If you want to...see for yourself. Don't take my word for it. Its just my opinion again. I think the way someone runs their business does reflect something about their character so I'll let that speak for itself.
WordZ3, thanks for replying and letting us know what happen! I was wondering if you ever brought these things up with the instructors? Sorry the school was not what you thought it would be. Maybe you should look around and see if there is anything near you which would more 'fit' what it is you are looking for? Someone on here might be able to help you out! If not on this forum then maybe on one of the bujikan ones????
It took along time for me to find the right people and the right group to train with, so don't lose heart it will come around when it is supposed to!!!!!!
It took along time for me to find the right people and the right group to train with, so don't lose heart it will come around when it is supposed to!!!!!!
bydand
Senior Master
Wordz3, thanks for clearing the situation up a bit more. With a bit more background the complaints make sense and do not just sound like mad rantings. I hope you have continued on your search for training, and finding a good fit for a dojo. To steal a phrase my Grandmother used to use, "Don't toss out the baby with the bath water" when it comes to searching for a different place to train. Bujinkan is of course the direct link to Hatsumi Sensei, but keep in mind that To-Shin-Do instructors are generally a product of the Bujinkan. At least the ones who have been around for a while. I have met some really great instructors in the Quest organization, and I have also seen some I wouldn't walk across the street to train with. I can say the exact same about the Bujinkan. Good luck on your search. Oh yeah almost forgot, nice explanation and nice to see background of the "WHY" you were upset, all I was asking. I have to spread around some more points, but will get back to you for the last post and give back the points I dinged you for.
Lots of Bujinkan people aren't even teaching what Hatsumi teaches, because Hatsumi regularly not only changes his teachings, but changes his statements about what he taught before. Then people ask why Hayes or Manaka or Tanemura do things differently even though it was "always" a certain way, and there are arguments on the internet where people get very, very angry if you quote things that Hatsumi said or wrote before the late 90s.
I believe Quest allows Toshindo to be taught as a supplement to anther system, so you might learn the material anyway, but not at the pacing you expect. It depends on the school's priorities. As for "authenticity," see above.
The godan (5th degree) test is based on your supposed ESP. Or Hatsumi's. Or something. To prepare for it, you need to be well liked and to show up in Japan. Even people who like the Bujinkan are openly scornful of certain people who have godan or higher -- like Hayes, for instance. It sure as hell isn't based on technical crispness or fighting ability. There are people who do Budo Taijutsu who can fight -- even people who can fight because of Budo Taijutsu. This has little to do with rank.
If that's what you want, join a campus martial arts club or one at the Y. It's unrealistic to expect commercial grade facilities from part time teachers. People need to pay the rent. If you join a sport MA school the dynamic is different because of the economics of coaching and competition, but other than that, if somebody has their own school, you're stuck.
In Japan, some people take pride in not making money from martial arts (or take pride in their teachers not doing it), but this is deceptive, given that lots of Japanese masters didn't even get a chance to head a traditional school until the end of their working lives in the first place.
These things both suck.
If you don't want to perform ceremonies associated with a belief system outside of your heritage and personal invention, you are categorically unsuited for Toshindo or any Ninpo schools, period. Toshindo uses Americanized Tendai as part of its teaching structure and the Bujinkan has its own elements.
On the other hand, I have no idea how anyone could learn anything in 45 minutes.
Maybe.
It doesn't sound like a great school, but some of your issues are not likely to be improved elsewhere, at least with ninpo.
Hello everyone.
I usually do not spend time in chat rooms or forums but this particular forum was brought to my attention and I thought I should reply.
I am the owner of Warrior's Edge Martial Arts and have studied ninjutsu since 1981. I have been exposed to Bujinkan ninjutsu, Kasumi-An ninjutsu, To-Shin Do and now Aiki Ninjutsu. I have dedicated my life to training in this style of martial art and my sole purpose is to help spread the word of ninjutsu to as many people as possible.
I have trained for years with the original three American Shihan as well as Shiraishi sensei. I actually had the pleasure of taking a 5th dan test with Shiraishi here in the U.S. when he was visiting our dojo and passed 6 times but it "didn't count" because I wasn't in Japan and he wasn't "allowed" to officially give the test or teach in the U.S.
I have dedicated my life to protecting others. I was a U.S. Marine Security Forces Team Member & Prisoner Chaser, a graduate of ESI (Executive Security International) and served on a protection team for a multi-billionaire. My goal is to help as many people become self sufficient in protecting themselves as possible.
The entire philosophy of our dojo is the improvement of self and the protection of self and others. I feel we have a very friendly dojo (this is backed up by the unsolicited comments I get from most of my students), despite what this student's experience might have been. I believe I know who this person is (Rusty?) and if I am right I have to say that he never stayed around long enough to develop friendships with other students. He would show up and leave immediately after class. I have 100 students who are 80 percent adults. When classes begin I instruct students to find a training partner that they feel comfortable with. If you don't like training with someone you would choose someone else. If someone doesn't like the partner they are dealing with I will change them out if I notice. If they don't say anything or look to be getting a good training experience then I will leave them alone. We do this in the "beginner's" class because a lot of people have never taken martial arts before and are uncomfortable being punched at and thrown to the ground. In our other classes people are encouraged to change partners and are put in a circle where the entire class attacks them so that they can get practice against different body types.
As far as Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu not teaching Ninjutsu, that is hard for me to understand. The "beginner's" class may seem Aikijujutsu "heavy". We teach the aiki kihon happo which are 8 techniques that teach principles that you will need to internalize and use with every technique thereafter. New students must show how to do these techniques against a cross wrist grab, same side wrist grab, punch, kick and lapel grab before moving onto the next technique. The techniques include muso dori, hon gyaku, take ori, omote shuto, as well as two Aikijutsu throws Shiho Nage and Irimi Nage. The students also learn ukemi (rolls and body drops), ninjutsu "16 fists", sword cuts, warm up with the Go-Gyo and practice Muto Dori (unarmed against a sword techniques) (ichimonji, jumoni, and hira no kata). So I ask...how is this not ninjutsu? I find it interesting that this person had no ninjutsu experience but felt we didn't teach ninjutsu and just 2 weeks ago I had a Bujinkan visitor from Atlanta stop in and train with us and tell me he learned enough in one class to give him material for 6 months of training. This is a person who has trained in the Bujinkan and To-Shin Do for over 20 years and holds a Dan ranking.
The beginner's class is 3-4 months long if the student shows up 2-3 times a week and focuses on their training while in class. I am confused on the comments about how I talk too much. Our classes are run in a very strict time management way so that the student gets as much time as possible to train and acquire repetition. We start by saying our Creed and Warrior Code. In the beginner's class we only say the Creed and 4 sentences of the Code so it takes about 1 minute. We then do the Go Gyo and sword cuts as a warm up and then it is right into ukemi and striking practice. We end each class with 20-25 minutes of just technique practice. Most people are sweating and smiling when they leave.
The "black belt club" class follows or precedes the beginner's class so students get a 15 minute break and then train for another 45 minutes. If a yellow belt wants to join Master's Club they can stay for weapons class (sword, knife, bo, hanbo, kusarifundo, shuriken) and master's class (Ninpo Kihon Happo, Kime Waza, 30 move ground flow drill, and multiple attacker and gun defenses). This would give them 4 classes in a row that they could participate in that are all teaching ninjutsu.
I personally hold a To-Shin Do 3rd dan and was invited to take my 4th dan before I left the organization. I also hold a 5th dan in Aiki Ninjutsu which is the belt I wear in class since that is what I teach. I personally don't put a lot of emphasis on belts for myself but when running a school rank is important because people coming in the door are also talking to Korean 8th dans about where to train.
We do have contracts. Most dojos do in America. I teach in Naperville, IL which is one of the most expensive areas in the U.S. I have to pay the rent and utilities so having contracts helps in that area. Just so everyone knows I have a 90 day out in all of my contracts. Once a student tells me they are leaving they are only responsible for the next 90 days and then I cancel the membership. No questions asked. I have only had 3 people (including this person) in five years leave because they felt we didn't teach Ninjutsu. None of them had trained in Ninjutsu before.
I have been hired by local law enforcement agencies, the ATF, high schools and other businesses in the area to come in and teach realistic self defense as well as how to use the warrior secrets in life. I have local and federal law enforcement officers who are regular students and they all have prior martial arts experience, one with an 8th dan in another martial art! They all feel that what we teach is effective and authentic.
To address his attack on my character...no...I don't even have to do that, I think his posts say enough about his.
I would like to close this post by saying thanks for reading my side of the "story". I hope that this person finds what they are looking for in a martial art and that in the future they don't slander others for no reason. I know he didn't need our Code but we have a couple parts that say:
I thoughtfully express the truth, I avoid the confusion of dishonest words.
[FONT="]and
[/FONT][FONT="]I encourage all to speak purposefully from the heart, I avoid the dull contentment of gossip and small talk.
[/FONT][FONT="]These might be something that he would like to think about adding to his Code.
I hope you all have the best experiences as you travel along the warrior path!
Ninpo Ikkan!
[/FONT]
I usually do not spend time in chat rooms or forums but this particular forum was brought to my attention and I thought I should reply.
I am the owner of Warrior's Edge Martial Arts and have studied ninjutsu since 1981. I have been exposed to Bujinkan ninjutsu, Kasumi-An ninjutsu, To-Shin Do and now Aiki Ninjutsu. I have dedicated my life to training in this style of martial art and my sole purpose is to help spread the word of ninjutsu to as many people as possible.
I have trained for years with the original three American Shihan as well as Shiraishi sensei. I actually had the pleasure of taking a 5th dan test with Shiraishi here in the U.S. when he was visiting our dojo and passed 6 times but it "didn't count" because I wasn't in Japan and he wasn't "allowed" to officially give the test or teach in the U.S.
I have dedicated my life to protecting others. I was a U.S. Marine Security Forces Team Member & Prisoner Chaser, a graduate of ESI (Executive Security International) and served on a protection team for a multi-billionaire. My goal is to help as many people become self sufficient in protecting themselves as possible.
The entire philosophy of our dojo is the improvement of self and the protection of self and others. I feel we have a very friendly dojo (this is backed up by the unsolicited comments I get from most of my students), despite what this student's experience might have been. I believe I know who this person is (Rusty?) and if I am right I have to say that he never stayed around long enough to develop friendships with other students. He would show up and leave immediately after class. I have 100 students who are 80 percent adults. When classes begin I instruct students to find a training partner that they feel comfortable with. If you don't like training with someone you would choose someone else. If someone doesn't like the partner they are dealing with I will change them out if I notice. If they don't say anything or look to be getting a good training experience then I will leave them alone. We do this in the "beginner's" class because a lot of people have never taken martial arts before and are uncomfortable being punched at and thrown to the ground. In our other classes people are encouraged to change partners and are put in a circle where the entire class attacks them so that they can get practice against different body types.
As far as Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu not teaching Ninjutsu, that is hard for me to understand. The "beginner's" class may seem Aikijujutsu "heavy". We teach the aiki kihon happo which are 8 techniques that teach principles that you will need to internalize and use with every technique thereafter. New students must show how to do these techniques against a cross wrist grab, same side wrist grab, punch, kick and lapel grab before moving onto the next technique. The techniques include muso dori, hon gyaku, take ori, omote shuto, as well as two Aikijutsu throws Shiho Nage and Irimi Nage. The students also learn ukemi (rolls and body drops), ninjutsu "16 fists", sword cuts, warm up with the Go-Gyo and practice Muto Dori (unarmed against a sword techniques) (ichimonji, jumoni, and hira no kata). So I ask...how is this not ninjutsu? I find it interesting that this person had no ninjutsu experience but felt we didn't teach ninjutsu and just 2 weeks ago I had a Bujinkan visitor from Atlanta stop in and train with us and tell me he learned enough in one class to give him material for 6 months of training. This is a person who has trained in the Bujinkan and To-Shin Do for over 20 years and holds a Dan ranking.
The beginner's class is 3-4 months long if the student shows up 2-3 times a week and focuses on their training while in class. I am confused on the comments about how I talk too much. Our classes are run in a very strict time management way so that the student gets as much time as possible to train and acquire repetition. We start by saying our Creed and Warrior Code. In the beginner's class we only say the Creed and 4 sentences of the Code so it takes about 1 minute. We then do the Go Gyo and sword cuts as a warm up and then it is right into ukemi and striking practice. We end each class with 20-25 minutes of just technique practice. Most people are sweating and smiling when they leave.
The "black belt club" class follows or precedes the beginner's class so students get a 15 minute break and then train for another 45 minutes. If a yellow belt wants to join Master's Club they can stay for weapons class (sword, knife, bo, hanbo, kusarifundo, shuriken) and master's class (Ninpo Kihon Happo, Kime Waza, 30 move ground flow drill, and multiple attacker and gun defenses). This would give them 4 classes in a row that they could participate in that are all teaching ninjutsu.
I personally hold a To-Shin Do 3rd dan and was invited to take my 4th dan before I left the organization. I also hold a 5th dan in Aiki Ninjutsu which is the belt I wear in class since that is what I teach. I personally don't put a lot of emphasis on belts for myself but when running a school rank is important because people coming in the door are also talking to Korean 8th dans about where to train.
We do have contracts. Most dojos do in America. I teach in Naperville, IL which is one of the most expensive areas in the U.S. I have to pay the rent and utilities so having contracts helps in that area. Just so everyone knows I have a 90 day out in all of my contracts. Once a student tells me they are leaving they are only responsible for the next 90 days and then I cancel the membership. No questions asked. I have only had 3 people (including this person) in five years leave because they felt we didn't teach Ninjutsu. None of them had trained in Ninjutsu before.
I have been hired by local law enforcement agencies, the ATF, high schools and other businesses in the area to come in and teach realistic self defense as well as how to use the warrior secrets in life. I have local and federal law enforcement officers who are regular students and they all have prior martial arts experience, one with an 8th dan in another martial art! They all feel that what we teach is effective and authentic.
To address his attack on my character...no...I don't even have to do that, I think his posts say enough about his.
I would like to close this post by saying thanks for reading my side of the "story". I hope that this person finds what they are looking for in a martial art and that in the future they don't slander others for no reason. I know he didn't need our Code but we have a couple parts that say:
I thoughtfully express the truth, I avoid the confusion of dishonest words.
[FONT="]and
[/FONT][FONT="]I encourage all to speak purposefully from the heart, I avoid the dull contentment of gossip and small talk.
[/FONT][FONT="]These might be something that he would like to think about adding to his Code.
I hope you all have the best experiences as you travel along the warrior path!
Ninpo Ikkan!
[/FONT]
LegLockGuy
Green Belt
Jutoshi, very honorable of you to come and say your side of the story. And that's what is important, is getting both sides of a story.
Also Jotoshi I was wondering if I could go off topic for a second, and ask about your style of Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu.
1) How well rounded is your style? (such as outside striking, inside striking, clinching, throwing, groundfighting?)
2) Do you or any of your students compete in competitions? Are they allowed to?
3) What's your belt ranking system like?
4) Do you think the Ninjutsu, Toshindo, and Aikijutsu are blended well in your style?
5) What is sparring like? Level of contact? Rules?
Also Jotoshi I was wondering if I could go off topic for a second, and ask about your style of Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu.
1) How well rounded is your style? (such as outside striking, inside striking, clinching, throwing, groundfighting?)
2) Do you or any of your students compete in competitions? Are they allowed to?
3) What's your belt ranking system like?
4) Do you think the Ninjutsu, Toshindo, and Aikijutsu are blended well in your style?
5) What is sparring like? Level of contact? Rules?
