Some more thoughts on "anti grappling".

[mook jong man]

Really? Mook has categorically denied that this is possible. I think you're being very sensible to do this, but surely you can understand my confusion when you guys say exactly the opposite.


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You seem to have a quite the talent for twisting peoples words around don't you.

There is a level of trust involved with sparring with unknown people , the guys Yak trains with are probably acquaintances and probably come to his Kwoon , they trust him not to elbow strike them in the face , and he trusts them not to snap his arm off or choke him out.

Just a little bit different than walking into a random MMA gym as the Kung Fu guy isn't it.

In my experience of sparring people from other styles they never acknowledge the strikes , hell most of the time they don't even see them , so to make them see where they have been got you have to start hitting them for real , which never ever ends well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you have good throwing resistance skill, it's not that easy for your opponent to take you down. To remain standing should still be a striker's highest priority.

 

[Vajramusti]

agree

 

[Vajramusti]

That is a problem mook.

A grappler can go full power. In "playing" a puncher often goes light- not wanting to lose a partner.

 

[Steve]

You seem to have a quite the talent for twisting peoples words around don't you.

There is a level of trust involved with sparring with unknown people , the guys Yak trains with are probably acquaintances and probably come to his Kwoon , they trust him not to elbow strike them in the face , and he trusts them not to snap his arm off or choke him out.

Just a little bit different than walking into a random MMA gym as the Kung Fu guy isn't it.

In my experience of sparring people from other styles they never acknowledge the strikes , hell most of the time they don't even see them , so to make them see where they have been got you have to start hitting them for real , which never ever ends well.

lol. Whatever. You are as much a fanboy as you claim to hate. You have no trust because you have a distorted opinion based upon little more than you tube.

It sounds now like other people can manage to spar.


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[drop bear]

You seem to have a quite the talent for twisting peoples words around don't you.

There is a level of trust involved with sparring with unknown people , the guys Yak trains with are probably acquaintances and probably come to his Kwoon , they trust him not to elbow strike them in the face , and he trusts them not to snap his arm off or choke him out.

Just a little bit different than walking into a random MMA gym as the Kung Fu guy isn't it.

In my experience of sparring people from other styles they never acknowledge the strikes , hell most of the time they don't even see them , so to make them see where they have been got you have to start hitting them for real , which never ever ends well.

Because you have to win at sparring?

 

[geezer]

Because you have to win at sparring?

No, I dot think that's what Mook's saying at all.

When you're doing light sparring there has to be some acknowledgement of the other guy's shots ...otherwise it just escalates. This can be more of a problem in striking arts than in grappling arts. When grappling you can often apply real force and accomplish your goals without causing each other damage. But still, sometimes you guys run into the same problem ...like some jerk you submit, but who won't tap out so you have to choose between actually hurting him or letting it go and forgetting about it.

I'm a patient person, but people like that are a real pain!

 

[drop bear]

No, I dot think that's what Mook's saying at all.

When you're doing light sparring there has to be some acknowledgement of the other guy's shots ...otherwise it just escalates. This can be more of a problem in striking arts than in grappling arts. When grappling you can often apply real force and accomplish your goals without causing each other damage. But still, sometimes you guys run into the same problem ...like some jerk you submit, but who won't tap out so you have to choose between actually hurting him or letting it go and forgetting about it.

I'm a patient person, but people like that are a real pain!

No there really doesn't. It is sparring not play acting. So if it is light you accept that the shots won break a guys composure. Otherwise you go hard and deal with the reality of hard shots. Which is the risk someone will get bashed. Otherwise you just deal with it. Learn to fire shots into a guy that may not cower and cringe from them.

Same as if a guy won't tap. Yes you let it go. Or you do better submissions. Not spazzier ones. Sometimes he takes advantage of you. Boo hoo. What is the worst that will happen? You get subbed by a guy who is technically worse but took advantage of you giving him an even break.

Ground and pound this happens a bit because you pin the guy and then fire sensible shots to his head. He can quite often ignore them to try to escape.

There is something fundamentally wrong with your approach to this.

What you are describing is ego sparring. And you will never get a good reception in any gym if you go in and pull that. That is the reason you find yourself matched with a top fighter who will give you a lesson in humility.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This can be more of a problem in striking arts than in grappling arts. When grappling you can often apply real force and accomplish your goals without causing each other damage.

Agree! The striking art does have physical limitation.

If a grappler takes his opponent down

- 10 times daily,
- in 1 year, he has taken his opponent down 3,650 times.
- in 3 years, he has taken his opponent down more than 10,000 times.

That's a lot of record that he can build his lifetime confidence on top of it.

As a striker, how many times will you be able to knock your opponent down daily? If you have never knocked your opponent down in the past, how do you know that you can knock your opponent down in the future?

 

[geezer]

Agree! The striking art does have physical limitation.

If a grappler takes his opponent down

- 10 times daily,
- in 1 year, he has taken his opponent down 3,650 times.
- in 3 years, he has taken his opponent down more than 10,000 times.

That's a lot of record that he can build his confidence on top of it.

As a striker, how many times will you be able to knock your opponent down daily?

...or get knocked down daily without damaging your brain?

Throws and grappling are plenty tough on the body but I'd rather end up kinda crippled-up when I'm old ...heck I am crippled up and old... rather than brain damaged or "punch drunk" like so many old boxers. And I'd much rather have my son get into wrestling or BJJ than boxing for the same reasons.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

...or get knocked down daily without damaging your brain?

Throws and grappling are plenty tough on the body but I'd rather end up kinda crippled-up when I'm old ...heck I am crippled up and old... rather than brain damaged or "punch drunk" like so many old boxers. And I'd much rather have my son get into wrestling or BJJ than boxing for the same reasons.

This is why I prefer

- to be a grappler and train "anti-striking" strategy than
- to be a striker and train "anti-grappling" strategy.

Not to get punched on my head is the highest priority in my training.

 

[drop bear]

OK back to the stand up sweep submit theory. If you are trying to stand up. Defending that makes it harder to block a sweep. Which in turn makes it harder to block a submission. To switching from one to the other creates openings you can use. You tend not to apply just one method and assume it will work.

Now the interesting thing is that they can't punch you and defend the stand up sweep submit either so either the crack some shots off and let you up or the dedicate themselves to holding you down. At which point they are not hitting you.

 

[Hanzou]

Agree! The striking art does have physical limitation.

If a grappler takes his opponent down

- 10 times daily,
- in 1 year, he has taken his opponent down 3,650 times.
- in 3 years, he has taken his opponent down more than 10,000 times.

That's a lot of record that he can build his lifetime confidence on top of it.

As a striker, how many times will you be able to knock your opponent down daily? If you have never knocked your opponent down in the past, how do you know that you can knock your opponent down in the future?

This exact discussion is happening over in the general MA section in the MMA/TMA topic.

Some people can't wrap their minds over the fact that a grappler is more proficient at an RNC or any choke in general, than a striker knocking someone out with a neck strike.

The simple reality, as you explained above, is that a grappler has actually used that technique for its precise purpose countless times in training. The striker more than likely has never actually used the neck strike on anyone at full force. Thus when the poop hits the fan, the grappler is far more likely to pull off his moves than the striker is.

 

[Buka]

This exact discussion is happening over in the general MA section in the MMA/TMA topic.

Some people can't wrap their minds over the fact that a grappler is more proficient at an RNC or any choke in general, than a striker knocking someone out with a neck strike.

The simple reality, as you explained above, is that a grappler has actually used that technique for its precise purpose countless times in training. The striker more than likely has never actually used the neck strike on anyone at full force. Thus when the poop hits the fan, the grappler is far more likely to pull off his moves than the striker is.

I'd like to add something for strikers everywhere. You really need to train with a RNC in grappling, even if it's just you and your guys in your dojo. Practiced "once in a while" it seems like it's as easy as pie, but while it's easy enough (at times) to get your arms in the proper position, actually getting the choke to make someone sleep or tap takes more practice, and technique, than a lot of young strikers think.

 

[geezer]

There is something fundamentally wrong with your approach to this. What you are describing is ego sparring. And you will never get a good reception in any gym if you go in and pull that. That is the reason you find yourself matched with a top fighter who will give you a lesson in humility.

Agreed. Sparring is about training, conditioning and learning. If we don't check your ego at the door it will go badly, and nothing will be learned. My point was that in either grappling or striking, that learning opportunity is diminished when you are paired with someone who is all about ego and won't acknowledge your hits or submissions unless you go all out and hurt him. Judging from your last sentence (see bolded type above) I think you agree and share my impatience with that kind of attitude.

BTW Regarding "verbal sparring'', has anybody else noted that the same kind of ego driven, argumentative stubbornness has been popping up on this thread from time to time? After all the arguments are presented and discussed, sometimes it's best to just accept that there are differences in perspective and let it go. I'm not sure we're there yet, but we're probably getting close. Carry on.

 

[Buka]

And I'd much rather have my son get into wrestling or BJJ than boxing for the same reasons.

Amen to that, brother. I don't like seeing young men going into boxing, especially if they do so with competition in mind.

 

[Buka]

I thought I posted a few, but I guess they don't count.

Really, it seems like everyone is only interested in arguing at this point. My answer is "STFU and train" -- Train Wing Chun. Train grappling. Train Wing Chun against grapplers. Any unrealistic notions will be quickly dispelled, and you'll get far more benefit than you will from arguing notions and semantics on the internet. And just maybe, dispel ignorance on both sides of the issue.

From reading this thread, I can't help but marvel that elitism among grapplers is just as bad as elitism among WC practitioners. Put them together, and you have some awful stubborn head butting going on. Or you know, a very well rounded fighter, if you can get past that first bit.

So, true, bro. But about that "elitism" you mentioned, you know where that first raised it's ugly head? With us Karate people. We started all of that. In the sixties, there really weren't many dojos around. In the seventies they popped up like rabbits, they were everywhere. And the vast majority of them were Karate schools. Karate instructors were notorious for bad mouthing ANY style/school that wasn't them. It would have been laughable if it wasn't so sad, stupid and counter productive to good attitude and good training. Back then, I found it embarrassing. Now I just look at it as amusing......which is why I so love Master Ken and his Ameri-do-te.

 

[Argus]

So, true, bro. But about that "elitism" you mentioned, you know where that first raised it's ugly head? With us Karate people. We started all of that. In the sixties, there really weren't many dojos around. In the seventies they popped up like rabbits, they were everywhere. And the vast majority of them were Karate schools. Karate instructors were notorious for bad mouthing ANY style/school that wasn't them. It would have been laughable if it wasn't so sad, stupid and counter productive to good attitude and good training. Back then, I found it embarrassing. Now I just look at it as amusing......which is why I so love Master Ken and his Ameri-do-te.

Really? I trained Karate for a short time, and I found karate-ka to be some of the most open-minded people I've met in the Martial Arts. But then, maybe I was just lucky to find a good school.

 

[Buka]

Really? I trained Karate for a short time, and I found karate-ka to be some of the most open-minded people I've met in the Martial Arts. But then, maybe I was just lucky to find a good school.

I find karateka to be that way as well. And a lot has changed over the years, most for the better, but not all. Again, I was talking about a different era in martial arts. I'm sure some would find a lot of what went on forty years ago quite odd. Back then, if you wore a black gi in competition in many parts of New England, you would have felt like you had been transported back to the antebellum South. You couldn't win no matter how good you were or how well you fought. You were considered a heathen. That sounds so fricken strange now, but that's the way it was.

And Karate people don't bad mouth each other any more, at least not the ones I know. I'm going to a yearly dinner tonight of Karate people from a different organization. I have a lot of old friends there, and even though we didn't train together, we've known each other forever. It will be lots of fun, a couple guys there will be getting high promotions, they've been training since the sixties, and I'll bet my bottom dollar there will be no hating on anyone, no matter how many beers are raised. And that's the way it should always be.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. Sparring is about training, conditioning and learning. If we don't check your ego at the door it will go badly, and nothing will be learned. My point was that in either grappling or striking, that learning opportunity is diminished when you are paired with someone who is all about ego and won't acknowledge your hits or submissions unless you go all out and hurt him. Judging from your last sentence (see bolded type above) I think you agree and share my impatience with that kind of attitude.

BTW Regarding "verbal sparring'', has anybody else noted that the same kind of ego driven, argumentative stubbornness has been popping up on this thread from time to time? After all the arguments are presented and discussed, sometimes it's best to just accept that there are differences in perspective and let it go. I'm not sure we're there yet, but we're probably getting close. Carry on.

I have no idea of this concept of acknowledging hits. You get hit or you don't. There are some things I won't tap to either. Guillotines are one because i can generally ride them out.