Some more thoughts on "anti grappling".

[Steve]

I have mixed feelings on Izzo and some of his Wing Chun, but there is this:

This guy is going to be a lot more successful against wrestlers because he is actually working out with real wrestlers. I don't know about the techniques, but I am completely confident that the guy above is going to have a lot more success because he's actually testing his technique.

The guy in the first, dishonest "anti-grappling" video will not be successful against grapplers, because he is in denial.

 

[elder999]

So, to sum up:

True "anti-grappling" is grappling.

And to add a bit more:

ALL "striking styles" contain some grappling, just as likewise, ALL "grappling styles" contain some striking.

If you think a "striking style" doesn't contain some grappling, then either you're ignorant, or the person practicing it is.

If you think wing chun (considering which forum this is) doesn't contain some grappling-suifficient to deter a takedown-then someone isn't paying attention, and you're either watching or training with people who don't know-or don't show.

Ditto for a "grappling style." If you think judo, for example, doesn't have strikes-you're either watching or training with people who don't know ,or don't show ....though this last is understandable, considering the predominance of watered-down, wussified, sport/Olympic style instruction....(noticed that I said "instruction.)

 

[Hanzou]

So, to sum up:

True "anti-grappling" is grappling.

And to add a bit more:

ALL "striking styles" contain some grappling, just as likewise, ALL "grappling styles" contain some striking.

If you think a "striking style" doesn't contain some grappling, then either you're ignorant, or the person practicing it is.

If you think wing chun (considering which forum this is) doesn't contain some grappling-suifficient to deter a takedown-then someone isn't paying attention, and you're either watching or training with people who don't know-or don't show.

Ditto for a "grappling style." If you think judo, for example, doesn't have strikes-you're either watching or training with people who don't know ,or don't show ....though this last is understandable, considering the predominance of watered-down, wussified, sport/Olympic style instruction....(noticed that I said "instruction.)

What would be the WC grappling you're referring to?

 

[elder999]

What would be the WC grappling you're referring to?

It would be standing grappling, based on WC principles and trapping. WC's problem with today's grappling isn't just it's skill set, or the people who train others in it-its principle problem lies in its history, and the fact that it was developed in an environment where ground grappling wasn't really much of an option, and grappling was usually after the beating and a precursor to knifing......

 

[Hanzou]

It would be standing grappling, based on WC principles and trapping. WC's problem with today's grappling isn't just it's skill set, or the people who train others in it-its principle problem lies in its history, and the fact that it was developed in an environment where ground grappling wasn't really much of an option, and grappling was usually after the beating and a precursor to knifing......

Standing grappling in order to avoid a takedown? Interesting. Is there anywhere I can view this technique? I would be very interested in seeing its execution.

 

[elder999]

Standing grappling in order to avoid a takedown? Interesting. Is there anywhere I can view this technique? I would be very interested in seeing its execution.

What, you never saw Chuck Lidell? :lfao:

 

[Hanzou]

What, you never saw Chuck Lidell? :lfao:

I was talking about WC style. Liddell is definitely not Wing Chun. His stuff is a combination of MT clinchwork and wrestling.

 

[Vajramusti]

That argument would imply that those that created Wing Chun anti-grappling didn't possess those attributes, which is why they felt the need to construct an answer to the grappling "problem".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Incorrect assumption and ergo incorrect conclusion.

 

[Hanzou]

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Incorrect assumption and ergo incorrect conclusion.

Where's the incorrect assumption?

This stuff actually exists.

 

[Vajramusti]

Where's the incorrect assumption?

((Assuming that youtube clips capture all that is there to wing chun.
Different schools of wing chun have quite different understandings
of what wing chun is))

This stuff actually exists.

((sure. The participants are doing their own thing))

 

[Hanzou]

((Assuming that youtube clips capture all that is there to wing chun.
Different schools of wing chun have quite different understandings
of what wing chun is))

I never said that was all there is to Wing Chun. I was simply pointing out what your argument implies. If your argument is true, none of those videos should exist.

((sure. The participants are doing their own thing))

And its the wrong thing.

One of those vids is actually proclaiming that you can trade punches on your back with someone in the mounted position. Keep in mind, he did this after instructing his partner to scoot back off his chest. After all, the guy on the street pummeling your brains in is going to be kind enough to scoot back onto your belly to give you more leverage.

 

[Argus]

That was actually a pretty good video. Props to Izzo for having the guts to do that.

One thing I'm noticing is the over-reliance on countering the double or single leg takedown. I'm not seeing much in the way of stopping the clinch, which is what the Gracies used in their takedowns after using strikes to distract their target. I'm willing to bet that the clinch is way more common than the DLT or SLT, since it requires zero training, and is a natural grapple.

This is actually something I do practice, granted with a WC training partner. We'll practice having one party set up and go for a clinch as best we can. In my experience, a clinch can only happen if your arms are spread off center, or if someone gets underneath your elbows. Of course, if your opponent's timing is really good, it's difficult to react in time, but I find that I have pretty good success defending against a clinch with a quan-sau, keeping the arms in and getting one arm low, while trying to sink and step offline. From there, it's usually pretty easy to strike or wrap the opponent's arm behind his back and control his neck, or just push him to the side and disengage. The important thing is just sinking quickly, keeping the hands and elbows low and in the center, and not letting your opponent get underneath you.

Of course, we're not trained grapplers. But this would seem to be a good first line of defense against your average Joe, if you take the time to practice it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I've got plenty of respect for Wing Chun as a martial art. That said, the gentlemen in the videos that Hanzou posted are just embarrassing themselves and teaching their students how to get hurt. They should stick to what they know or else get some actual instruction in areas they are ignorant of.

 

[Vajramusti]

I never said that was all there is to Wing Chun. I was simply pointing out what your argument implies. If your argument is true, none of those videos should exist.



And its the wrong thing.

One of those vids is actually proclaiming that you can trade punches on your back with someone in the mounted position. Keep in mind, he did this after instructing his partner to scoot back off his chest. After all, the guy on the street pummeling your brains in is going to be kind enough to scoot back onto your belly to give you more leverage.

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There is no quality control in wing chun across all the lineages. There are fundamental differences in concepts of structure -as a start. Yes the videos have major shortcomings imo.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I find that I have pretty good success defending against a clinch with a quan-sau, keeping the arms in and getting one arm low, while trying to sink and step offline. From there, it's usually pretty easy to strike or wrap the opponent's arm behind his back and control his neck, or just push him to the side and disengage. The important thing is just sinking quickly, keeping the hands and elbows low and in the center, and not letting your opponent get underneath you.

Of course, we're not trained grapplers. But this would seem to be a good first line of defense against your average Joe, if you take the time to practice it.

I think we need to define the word "grappling" in more detail.

You will need skill to:

1. prevent a clinch from happening (If you can knock down your opponent before he gets a clinch on you, that will work).
2. deal with a clinch after it has already happened (how to deal with head lock, under hook, over hook, bear hug, ...).
3. defense against throw (how to defense against single leg, double legs, hip throw, inner hook, ...).
4. deal with ground game (how to deal with choke, arm bar, leg bar, side mount, ...).

Do you imply that "anti-grappling" is only the 1st stage training? Do you think the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th stage training should also be included just in case your 1st stage "anti-grappling" strategy may not work as you have predicted?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It would be standing grappling, based on WC principles and trapping. ...

What WC principles and trapping will you use to prevent the following from happening?

- MT guy's "double neck tie",
- wrestler's "double under hook",
- Judo guy's "waist wrap",
- ...

A clinch can happen so quickly. IME, it's not that easy to prevent it from happening.

What if this has happened so quickly that you didn't have time to prevent it?

 

[mook jong man]

What WC principles and trapping will you use to prevent the following from happening?

- MT guy's "double neck tie",
- wrestler's "double under hook",
- Judo guy's "waist wrap",
- ...

A clinch can happen so quickly. IME, it's not that easy to prevent it from happening.

What if this has happened so quickly that you didn't have time to prevent it?

What if the sky fell down ?

 

[drop bear]

This is actually something I do practice, granted with a WC training partner. We'll practice having one party set up and go for a clinch as best we can. In my experience, a clinch can only happen if your arms are spread off center, or if someone gets underneath your elbows. Of course, if your opponent's timing is really good, it's difficult to react in time, but I find that I have pretty good success defending against a clinch with a quan-sau, keeping the arms in and getting one arm low, while trying to sink and step offline. From there, it's usually pretty easy to strike or wrap the opponent's arm behind his back and control his neck, or just push him to the side and disengage. The important thing is just sinking quickly, keeping the hands and elbows low and in the center, and not letting your opponent get underneath you.

Of course, we're not trained grapplers. But this would seem to be a good first line of defense against your average Joe, if you take the time to practice it.

But all you are doing is defending the grapple? Constant running away in just a wrestling format does have a high success rate. Untill you either add striking or the wrestler eventually just rugby tackles you.

Otherwise defending against noob grapplers will give you a false idea of what works. They are noobs everything works.

OK this is boxing but the point is there.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wCea6uPRSyQ

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

What WC principles and trapping will you use to prevent the following from happening?

- MT guy's "double neck tie",
- wrestler's "double under hook",
- Judo guy's "waist wrap",
- ...

A clinch can happen so quickly. IME, it's not that easy to prevent it from happening.

What if this has happened so quickly that you didn't have time to prevent it?

A punch to the face can happen so quickly as well.

What if this happened so quickly that you didn't have time to prevent it?

Do all the grappling arts train by getting punched really hard in the face then trying to apply their techniques?

Or do they train tactics and techniques to try and prevent that from happening?

 

[drop bear]

A punch to the face can happen so quickly as well.

What if this happened so quickly that you didn't have time to prevent it?

Do all the grappling arts train by getting punched really hard in the face then trying to apply their techniques?

Or do they train tactics and techniques to try and prevent that from happening?

They train and try to prevent.

Grappling tends to beat striking. From my experience anecdotally but as to the mechanics of why. I have not been able to come up with a good explanation.

I think maybe it is positional dominance. The grappling positional dominance is a lot greater than the striking one. So if we fight striking I push you into a corner I have the dominant position but it is a 60/40

If I get on top in a wrestle it is a 90/10

And that is if you can wrestle.

If you can't it becomes a 90/10 as soon as I clinch so I need one opening to finish the fight and when I get that. I am constantly being made safer and putting you at risk. So the longer I clinch the less chance you have of knocking me out and more chance of me taking you to the floor. On the floor the odds stack up against the striker again.

Striking it only becomes 90/10 if you are seriously rocked otherwise every exchange has the opportunity for me to nail you with a shot and regain momentum. Or in grapple vs strike clinch and gain that momentum.