Eh, not really. It's not like grabs and locks are foreign to us. I'd even go so far as to say that we're pretty familiar with them in a chisau context. I was more pointing to the structure and sensitivity. But, just because we might play a certain way in Chisau, against other WC practitioners, doesn't mean we'll do the same thing verbatim against, say, a grappler. Heck, in that particular clip, they were rarely even striking. This is akin to me watching a BJJ match (well, not even that. A playful rolling session that is purely BJJ on BJJ) and commenting that "geez, that looks like a great way to get punched" because they're not worried about, and don't account for strikes, being that it isn't an MMA/SD setting, but rather just friendly rolling working solely on BJJ techniques.
Some more thoughts on "anti grappling".
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
Eh, not really. It's not like grabs and locks are foreign to us. I'd even go so far as to say that we're pretty familiar with them in a chisau context. I was more pointing to the structure and sensitivity. But, just because we might play a certain way in Chisau, against other WC practitioners, doesn't mean we'll do the same thing verbatim against, say, a grappler. Heck, in that particular clip, they were rarely even striking. This is akin to me watching a BJJ match (well, not even that. A playful rolling session that is purely BJJ on BJJ) and commenting that "geez, that looks like a great way to get punched" because they're not worried about, and don't account for strikes, being that it isn't an MMA/SD setting, but rather just friendly rolling working solely on BJJ techniques.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I'm not viewing that from a perspective of us standing next to each other. I'm viewing it from a perspective of the WC exponent being in an inferior grappling position, and trying to strike or weave their way out of that position. That leaves them wide open for arm traps, which in turn can lead to all sorts of nasty things.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
First one works. We cross face as well. And is basic double leg defence. Shown here with a bit of wizzer as well.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DAvTRzpGzWw
The second one is sorta. Wrestling has a similar drill called pummeling.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VrfDW3HA0ZA
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As a renegade WC practitioner I have no interest in this purity you speak of! ...Ti, da, shuai, na. All TCMA have some of each. WC may emphasize some areas more than others, but you should be capable of handling yourself to a limited degree in all ranges.
Practically speaking though, this means that you will want to fight on your terms, not your opponent's. If he is a long range fighter, then you will try to fight in close. If he prefers the ground, you will want to stand and strike. If you must grapple, you may choose to get back to your striking game rather than keep it on the ground ...if you have the skill to do so.
And for the record, in my lexicon "anti-grappling" would consist of:
a. Tactics to prevent the grappler from clinching and taking you to the ground.
b. Sufficient grappling skill to survive on the ground against an average opponent.
c. A few well practiced escape techniques to help you recover your game.
--will this be enough to defeat a great grappler if he gets you on the ground? No, of course not. But such knowledge will definitely help you in a self-defense situation. As will a knowledge of improvised weapons, kicking, punching and so forth. In an uncertain and changeable environment, the adaptable generalist has an advantage over the narrowly focused specialist. That's pretty well established.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Catch grip fighting.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gLoOX58AE9g
So you would chisau for double under hooks or a double leg if you wanted to hybridise your system.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gLoOX58AE9g
So you would chisau for double under hooks or a double leg if you wanted to hybridise your system.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
I did this thread on out fighting and why you would use it to combat grappling.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/members/32080.html
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/members/32080.html
It's not that difficult to prevent your grappler opponent from getting a successful clinch. If your opponent tries to get you an
- over hook (or arm wrap), you rotate your arm the same direction as his arm does,
- under hook, you raise your arm straight up,
- head lock, you dodge your head under his arm,
- ...
I have tested this strategy myself many times. If I just concentrate 100% on not to let my opponent to get a successful clinch on me, I can keep my opponent away for 20 minutes (that was the maximum amount of time that I had tried myself). The problem is
- what will this give me?
- how long do I have to keep on doing this?
The moment that I try to punch my opponent's head, the moment that I give my opponent a chance to wrap around my extended punching arm.
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I love that pummeling drill. Kind of intrigued by wrestling now.
Skip Cooper
Purple Belt
Hanzou
Grandmaster
The question is this;
Does the ability to stop a grappler exist within Wing Chun without having to go outside the style?
If so, what is that ability? If not, why is this ability non-existent within the style?
I think we all agree that the "anti-grappling" stuff shown by some Wing Chun/Tsun schools clearly isn't the real deal.
P.S.: I have a theory about this, but I'd like to hear your take on it first.
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
Hanzou
Grandmaster
That was actually a pretty good video. Props to Izzo for having the guts to do that.
One thing I'm noticing is the over-reliance on countering the double or single leg takedown. I'm not seeing much in the way of stopping the clinch, which is what the Gracies used in their takedowns after using strikes to distract their target. I'm willing to bet that the clinch is way more common than the DLT or SLT, since it requires zero training, and is a natural grapple.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
That argument would imply that those that created Wing Chun anti-grappling didn't possess those attributes, which is why they felt the need to construct an answer to the grappling "problem".
In Shuai-Chiao, the 10 basic anti-grappling principless are:
1. 吸(XI) - Sticky,
2. 摟(LOU) - Double hooks,
3. 勾(GOU) - Outer leg hook,
4. 判(PAN) - Trap,
5. 削(XIAO) - Sickle hook,
6. 蹲(DUN) - Drop,
7. 跳(TIAO) - Hop,
8. 磨(MO) - Spin,
9. 轟(HONG) - Herd,
10. 摇(YAO) - Shake
Here is an example to use "勾(GOU) - Outer leg hook" to counter "hip throw (the mother of all throws)".
1. 吸(XI) - Sticky,
2. 摟(LOU) - Double hooks,
3. 勾(GOU) - Outer leg hook,
4. 判(PAN) - Trap,
5. 削(XIAO) - Sickle hook,
6. 蹲(DUN) - Drop,
7. 跳(TIAO) - Hop,
8. 磨(MO) - Spin,
9. 轟(HONG) - Herd,
10. 摇(YAO) - Shake
Here is an example to use "勾(GOU) - Outer leg hook" to counter "hip throw (the mother of all throws)".
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
The question is this;
Does the ability to stop a grappler exist within Wing Chun without having to go outside the style?
If so, what is that ability? If not, why is this ability non-existent within the style?
I think we all agree that the "anti-grappling" stuff shown by some Wing Chun/Tsun schools clearly isn't the real deal.
P.S.: I have a theory about this, but I'd like to hear your take on it first.
I have expressed my own on this a couple of times. They are trying to stop grappling and retain true to their own principles on fighting. Which just doesn't work. They are different structures.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
You will find similar concepts.
Agree!
To train the grappling art is like to find the right key to open the right lock. With the right key, it takes very little effort to open the right lock. People may try to find a "master key" that can open all locks. Unfortunately, such "master key" doesn't exist in the grappling art.
- The defense principle used on "hip throw" is different from
- the defense principle used on "leg lift" throw, which is also different from
- the defense principle used on "leg twist" throw.
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