Some MA teachers only teach form without application?

[Same Trick]

The long from is not meant to be.
Training to do the long from, can be .
Depending on line and linage of ones practice.

Ben Lo:

"
Prof. Zheng taught students in China differently from the way he taught students in the United States. When he taught me, he was very strict, especially when he was younger. My legs would be so sore that, when I went to bed at night, I had to use my hands to lift my legs onto the bed.

He was kinder with American students. He got softer as he grew older. The Professor also
said in the Thirteen Treatises that practicing taiji made him softer."


Ben was very strict in enforcing his training requirements.
His classes were legendary among those who trained in them, having endured the effort and pain of his teaching methods.
Meeting the requirements was not easy—though it may have looked effortless, the training that created that appearance was anything but.

Teacher Wang also told an example of Yang Chengfu teaching him. Yang asked him to stand in the "lifting
hand up" posture and walked away to smoke a pipe. Yang came back more than ten minutes later and kicked Wang, who was kicked down.


Yang said, no, not relaxed enough. You have to continue standing and find how to relax.
Wang continued to stand, and felt that he could not support himself and had no strength, so he tried to find a way to not be exhausted.

Gradually, he felt that his whole body was relaxed and comfortable.

Yang came back and kicked him again, and he did not fall. Yang asked: "Do you have a feeling about
relaxation this time?"

Wang said: "I have a little experience."

I would imagine so

The purpose of the practice is not merely to perform the form— it never was.
The form is just one component, used to teach different aspects depending on the lineage and training approach.

Yes you are right, the taiji form is not for performance, but the form hold importance.

As I wrote previously the Taiji form(the outer shape) stem from the long fist tradition a tradition that fused martial methods with gymnastic movements into by itself an excellent martial art. With Taiji the long fist form was kept as a vessel to be filled with the Taiji principles/mind, as our god-given bodies are the vessels of our soul in this reality we live, we should to take care of the vessel. So in this light a bit of bodily exercising is good, so that’s one of a good reason to mind the whole Taiji form.

 

[Same Trick]

Jwing-Ming Yang recommends exactly this in his book Tai Chi Chuan Martial Applications, where he says:

However, if you intend to to practice taijiquan for martial purposes, you should perform the sequence continuously three times, both morning and evening if possible. The first time is for warming up, the second is for qi transportation training, and the third time is for relaxed recovery.

Yes, if one can do the long form/20min three times in a row on will come to notice the significant differences in each of the thee times, also when doing zhanzhuang(standin exercises) one will experience how the body deeply adjust in 20 min intervals

 

[Same Trick]

You should take single move, or combo and drill it left and right as many times as you want.

it’s interesting that that’s the way the modern wushu Taiji for form competitions practice

 

[Same Trick]

So this will likely be an inevitably provocative question, and I don't mean to imply that he isn't a good martial artist or can't fight.

But what exactly is the credibility of Jwing-Ming Yang as it relates to Yang Taijiquan? Based on his own words, his Taijiquan background doesn't sound very strong and is heavily White Crane oriented:


Source: Taijiquan Master Kao, Tao - Dr. Yang's teacher



Source: https://ymaa.com/sites/default/files/book/sample/The-Essence-of-Shaolin-White-Crane.pdf

To me, Jwing-Ming Yang is way more of a White Crane guy than a Taijiquan guy. And a lot of his "Taijiquan" usages are really just White Crane. Qinna? That's from his White Crane - and maybe Long Fist.

The late great taiji master Zheng Manqing when was encountered by Huang Shengshyan who was a BaiHe(white crane) master is supposed to have “exclaimed” that he couldn’t believe that Huang had never studied Taiji previously.
There do seem to be striking similarities between Taiji and white crane gongfu but also some fundamental differences

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if speaking the traditional Yang or Wu styles long form then they are well balanced and thus no need for going through them in “mirroring”,

Do you have any video that shows Yang Taiji form "grasp sparrow's tail" with left leg forward?

it’s interesting that that’s the way the modern wushu Taiji for form competitions practice

Modern Wushu guys only train form. They are not interested in combat. They don't train drills at all.

 

[Same Trick]

Do you have any video that shows Yang Taiji form "grasp sparrow's tail" with left leg forward?


Modern Wushu guys only train form. They are not interested in combat. They don't train drills at all.

Oh yes those wushu guys do drill sequences from the forms, at least those guys and schools I know of.

Yes, Grasp birds tail at glance seem one sided but with a deeper look it’s well balanced “left and right”

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes, Grasp birds tail at glance seem one sided but with a deeper look it’s well balanced “left and right”

What do you mean "deeper look"?

So, your definition of "well balanced" is not both sides do the same move.

In Yang Taiji form, there is only right leg lotus kick. Do you have any Taiji form video that has left leg "lotus kick"?

 

[Same Trick]

What do you mean "deeper look"?

So, your definition of "well balanced" is not both sides do the same move.

In Yang Taiji form, there is only right leg lotus kick. Do you have any Taiji form video that has left leg "lotus kick"?

That one examines the sequence closely, then one find its equal to both sides.

The clear performed lotus kick appears once in the form, if that’s one want to do on both sides one can do another with the other leg after completion of tha form,
For the essential “energy” the kick hold it appears although somewhat “hidden in plain sight” but balanced in the form

 

[Taiji Rebel]

The great thing about martial arts is the variety of styles and practitioners. Each of us learn the forms and techniques as beginners and then refine them as our understanding grows. Jwing-Ming Yang's thoughts on going through the form three times resonated with a post here. Chen Xiaowang is another who believes in continually working through the form, he also recommends extensive practice of Zhan Zhuang too. Applying the techniques is useful if you wish to deepen your understandings and improve. It's interesting to read all the different responses here as they really do demonstrate the diversity of the martial arts world.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ah well. You gave me a plausible excuse to run my mouth off.

Meh. I never wait for a plausible excuse. Any excuse is good enough.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

if speaking the traditional Yang or Wu styles long form then they are well balanced and thus no need for going through them in “mirroring”,

I disagree. I find very few can perform the long form to the left to the same level as they can to the right. Try it.

 

[windwalker099]

Yes, if one can do the long form/20min three times in a row on will come to notice the significant differences in each of the thee times, also when doing zhanzhuang (standing exercises) one will experience how the body deeply adjust in 20 min intervals

Twenty minutes is often considered the time required for one full circulation of qi (气) within the body. One reason the form is performed slowly is to facilitate this circulation, ensuring it reaches all parts of the body. The practice is both taxing and refreshing at the same time.

Repeating the form multiple times may suggest that the first attempt was too fast. Instead, it may be more beneficial to calm down and relax through the form on the first run, without any expectations about duration.

When practiced correctly, one often loses awareness of time altogether.

Static standing (站桩, zhànzhuāng) is considered to be the practice of the form. Some refer to it as moving 站桩 (zhànzhuāng), with the idea of developing what some call a transparent body (透明身). For some, standing practice can be a faster way to identify and test for tension in the body. However, this awareness does not always carry over when changing postures or during transitions.

Some key points of our practice regarding this:

" (II) 散 (sàn) and relaxation are connected.
散 (sàn) is a deeper, purposeful relaxation. Relax from top to bottom, from head to toe. Then, relax from bottom to top—relax to the waist and hips, then expand outward in circles, like throwing a stone into water, causing ripples.

The circles spread outward, from small to large, without edges.

散 (sàn) must have a central axis, which is my center (重心). Keep the top light and open, the qi (气) sinking into the dantian (丹田), the tailbone (尾骨) hanging down, and the body aligned in a vertical straight line before relaxing outward.

Avoid overemphasizing the vertical lift; otherwise, the relaxation will not spread properly."

So, your definition of "well balanced" is not both sides do the same move.

In Yang Taiji form, there is only right leg lotus kick. Do you have any Taiji form video that has left leg "lotus kick"?

Practicing single movements on both sides is a common and important training method, as it helps develop balance, coordination, and adaptability. In many traditional Taiji forms, movements are not always performed symmetrically on both sides.

Note: the 24 step does have movement done on both sides.
The "Tung" style has a kick I want to say called through the heart kick similar to the lotus kick done on both sides

The primary focus of form practice in Taiji is often on transitions, strategic application, fluidity, and internal connectivity rather than just bilateral repetition. Some lineages emphasize practicing both sides separately, while others prioritize understanding structure, intent, and flow over strict symmetry.

"Well-balanced" Taiji does not necessarily mean every movement must be performed equally on both sides within the form itself.

note: could be wrong as I remember,

Tung (Dong) Yingjie Taijiquan, the "Lotus Kick" (摆莲腿 Bǎi Lián Tuǐ) is typically performed on both sides (right and left) in the traditional slow set

 

[windwalker099]

I disagree. I find very few can perform the long form to the left to the same level as they can to the right. Try it.

In Hawaii, Tung style as taught by Master Sam Kakina, and Peter was quite interesting. They would have two teachers line up back to back and perform the form—one stepping out with the left foot, the other with the right. In the general class, sometimes the teacher, Peter, would do the form on the opposite side, and everyone would follow without any issues. Wasn’t something formally taught; it just happened naturally.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I timed my yang long form yesterday. 32 minutes. My Sunday morning routine is 1 hour of Qinna, then 1 hour of Tai Chi Chuan 2 man fighting set, then 1 hour of gung fu forms practice, then 1 hour spent on the Yang long form.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In Hawaii, Tung style as taught by Master Sam Kakina, and Peter was quite interesting. They would have two teachers line up back to back and perform the form—one stepping out with the left foot, the other with the right. In the general class, sometimes the teacher, Peter, would do the form on the opposite side, and everyone would follow without any issues. Wasn’t something formally taught; it just happened naturally.

My teachers taught it both directions and at various speeds. If a practitioner is right handed, they may find additional softness by going to the left. I feel it’s important to have the fluency on both sides. It’s a task that is often neglected by the “health only” crowd. Many people don’t even realize it can be done. For martial artists that also practice a “hard or external” style in addition to Tai Chi Chuan it can add value to both practices.

 

[windwalker099]

My teachers taught it both directions and at various speeds. If a practitioner is right handed, they may find additional softness by going to the left. I feel it’s important to have the fluency on both sides. It’s a task that is often neglected by the “health only” crowd. Many people don’t even realize it can be done. For martial artists that also practice a “hard or external” style in addition to Tai Chi Chuan it can add value to both practices.

Find that once fully engaged in the movement, concepts like sides, direction, and time become less important. In the flow of the practice, the practitioner is no longer concerned with these elements.

Allowing oneself to simply be in the movement and flow with it is not as easy as it sounds.

Achieving No Mind (Wu Xin - 無心), where the mind is free of distractions and excessive thought, allowing Wu Wei (無為)—effortless action to manifest naturally— require a deep, consistent practice to reach, particularly in maintaining balance and fluidity throughout all aspects of the form.

For those who consider their practice, martially oriented it may seem very counterintuitive, as many things can be depending on one’s taiji practice.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Find that once fully engaged in the movement, concepts like sides, direction, and time become less important. In the flow of the practice, the practitioner is no longer concerned with these elements.

Allowing oneself to simply be in the movement and flow with it is not as easy as it sounds.

Achieving No Mind (Wu Xin - 無心), where the mind is free of distractions and excessive thought, allowing Wu Wei (無為)—effortless action to manifest naturally— require a deep, consistent practice to reach, particularly in maintaining balance and fluidity throughout all aspects of the form.

For those who consider their practice, martially oriented it may seem very counterintuitive, as many things can be depending on one’s taiji practice.

All true, if true.

 

[Flying Crane]

My teachers taught it both directions and at various speeds. If a practitioner is right handed, they may find additional softness by going to the left. I feel it’s important to have the fluency on both sides. It’s a task that is often neglected by the “health only” crowd. Many people don’t even realize it can be done. For martial artists that also practice a “hard or external” style in addition to Tai Chi Chuan it can add value to both practices.

Then, do your weapons on both sides. Long/two-handed weapons like the spear, as well as single-handed weapons like sword and dao. Great for balancing your training but also it is good preparation for the zombie apocalypse.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Then, do your weapons on both sides. Long/two-handed weapons like the spear, as well as single-handed weapons like sword and dao. Great for balancing your training but also it is good preparation for the zombie apocalypse.

I never trained weapons other than knife and extensive firearms training. I am right hand dominant but I shoot pistol far better with left hand. I wouldn’t have the foggiest idea how to properly handle a spear or sword. I can reliably and repeatedly hit a pie plate at 1000 yds with 7.62x51mm in full value cross wind of 15 mph or less.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Then, do your weapons on both sides. Long/two-handed weapons like the spear, as well as single-handed weapons like sword and dao. Great for balancing your training but also it is good preparation for the zombie apocalypse.

I like to drill all my combo 20 times (10 times on the right side and 10 times on the left side). Even today, I still can't decide which way I may like better.

1. Drill left and right alternating - left, right, left, right, ....
2. Drill 10 times on the right, and then 10 times on the left.

Which way do you prefer? 1, or 2?