Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
Ah! That’s the thing! The breath. The motion creates the breath and the breath rides the motion.
Some MA teachers only teach form without application?
- Thread starter Kung Fu Wang
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Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
It’s good. I don’t prefer changing speed during the form, but his looks smooth and connected. Rules don’t matter so much to me in regards to speed but the quality of motion and alignment with direction do.
OP
OP
One day I asked my Chang Taiji teacher, "What speed should I do my Taiji form?" He said, "It depends. If you just got off bed, your breathing is slow, your Taiji form will be slow. If you have just run 3 miles, your breathing is fast, your Taiji form will be fast. You let your breathing speed to dominate your Taiji form speed and not the other way around."
As far as I know, I have not heard any other MA system that use breathing speed to control the form training speed.
When you (general YOU) throw a punch at your opponent, your punch will be an exhale. You will never add an extra inhale in the middle of your punch. So, if you don't follow this Taiji guideline (1 move = 1 inhale, or 1 exhale), you are violating the basic combat principle.
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I don’t know much about Taiji. I trained it for a decade or so and finally set it aside as something that probably isn’t the best match for me personally. This happened as my Tibetan crane was improving. So I comment from a Crane perspective, not Taiji perspective.
In crane, we do not worry about the breathing other than to say breathe deeply and naturally, and specifically do NOT match breathing to a technique, such as an exhale on a punch. Whether we are exhaling or inhaling on a punch does not matter. And the exhale or inhale will likely last much longer than a punch, so several techniques could happen during one exhale or inhale. Just breathe.
When you exhale sharply on a punch, you are trying to squeeze power out of your body, rather than letting it happen naturally. This becomes labor-intensive and results in the work and effort being done by the upper body, leading to exhaustion. You work harder than you need to. I realize most people do it this way with lots of effort which leads to lots of tension, (even when they believe they are not) and it seems to me that most styles teach people to punch in this way.
It does not need to be done in that way. When power comes from the ground, through the feet and legs, then you can relax the upper body and let the powerful legs do most of the work, while breathing naturally. Then a powerful punch becomes much more relaxed, much more effortless.
If you are squeezing out the power and exhaling on each punch, you get winded quickly. By not doing it that way, I could stand there and throw 100 full-power punches while carrying on a normal conversation because the work is being done with the legs and it becomes similar to carrying on a conversation while walking down the street. When you walk, you breathe naturally and you do not time your exhales with every step.
I do not believe it is possible to carry on a normal conversation while throwing 100 punches if you exhale on each punch. That kind of effort and breathing makes one too tired to keep talking.
OP
OP
In long fist, we do not worry about breathing either. This is why I say Taiji use breathing speed to control moving speed may be unique.
If I throw 3 punches in 1 exhale time, I'll exhale 1/4 on each punch. After 3 punches, I'll still have 1/4 lung full of air. We call that "segmented breathing method" which is not used in Taiji training.
Do Taiji people ever train "1 step 3 punches"? Can any Taiji guy answer this question? I know it's not trained in my Chang Taiji.
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
It seems to me that sharp exhale on each punch is used in a lot of styles, like karate, Tae kwon do, Kenpo and a lot of kung fu, at least from what I’ve seen. I sometimes wonder if it was always done this way, or if it used to be done more relaxed but that concept got lost over time, in a lot of lineages.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
We don’t even bother with paying attention to this much either. We just inhale when we are ready to inhale, and exhale when we are ready to exhale, and technique happens when it needs to happen.
OP
OP
The "分段呼吸法 segmented breathing method" require some training times. Without training, it's hard to know what percentage of your air has come out of your lung.
Here is the "segmented breathing method" to share.
- Sit in a meditation posture.
- Rub your hands to make your palms warm.
- Cover both hands on your eyes.
- Rotate your eyeball clockwise several times, and then rotate your eyeballs counter-clockwise several times.
- Inhale fully, exhale fully (repeat 3 times).
- Inhale 1/2, inhale another 1/2, exhale 1/2, exhale another 1/2 (repeat 3 times).
- ...
- Inhale 1/8, inhale another 1/8, ... exhale 1/8. exhale another 1/8, ... (repeat 3 times).
Hold your breath for 2 seconds between each partial inhale, or partial exhale.
分段呼吸法 - Bing
Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.
分段呼吸法是一种简单的呼吸运动，可以让人镇静作用，有助于睡眠质量，能够让人快速恢复体力和提高清醒度。进行绵长且不间断的吸气，依次填满腹部、胸部及锁骨上部，然后继续。分段呼气：以相反的方式排出空气，从锁骨上部朝腹部进行，持续2秒，然后停下来屏住呼吸2秒，接着重新呼气2秒，之后再次屏住呼吸2秒，直到完全排空肺部.
AI translation:
Segmented breathing is a simple breathing exercise that can have a calming effect, improve sleep quality, help with quick recovery of physical energy, and increase alertness.
Here’s how it works:
- Segmented Inhalation: Take a long, uninterrupted breath, gradually filling your abdomen, chest, and the area above your collarbones. Then, continue this smooth inhalation process.
- Segmented Exhalation: Exhale in the reverse order, releasing air from above your collarbones, then the chest, and finally the abdomen. Do this in a series of steps:
- Exhale for 2 seconds.
- Hold your breath for 2 seconds.
- Exhale for another 2 seconds.
- Hold your breath again for 2 seconds.
- Repeat until your lungs are completely emptied.
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There’s a reason I used “combat”. The term “martial arts” has been applied pretty broadly over time.
While I agree with your first two sentences, the last part doesn’t follow. Borrowing from tai chi is no more problematic than borrowing from boxing and Taekwondo. I see no issue with someone deciding any MA, without application, makes for good exercise. The “why” is because it interests them.
Same Trick
Black Belt
The long form should be practiced three times in a row, so if it’s 20min you got an hour together, but thats not meant as to be brutal for the legs
Same Trick
Black Belt
No this is wrong, it’s like navel gazing, you can’t put your mind worrying on how and when you breath in and out when practicing the taiji form. I can’t believe you worry about when to breathe in an out when you do your daily chores or spar
OP
OP
By using breathing speed to control Taiji form speed may be only used in Chang Taiji and not used in other Taiji systems.
I can only speak for Chang Taiji. I can't speak for other Taiji system.
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Chang style tai chi chuan 108 long form
"Chang style" is a relativley new form of Tai-chi-chuan, dating back to the 1930's.The late Grandmaster Ch'ang Tung-sheng devised his system of Tai-chi-chuan. Because of his Shuai Chiao skills and full contact fighting expertise, Chang Tung Sheng felt that some of the original Tai Chi movements left the practitioner vulnerable to attacks from an opponent. Therefore, he took the liberty to modify a number of movements to be more adaptable to combat situations. Other than the modified movements, Chang Tai Chi is almost identical to Yang style Tai Chi Chuan. However, what really separates Chang Tai Chi from Yang style and other styles of Tai Chi and makes it a unique Tai Chi style in its own right is the application of the movements. Due to Chang Tung Sheng's extensive knowledge of kung fu, and of Shuai Chiao in particular, he felt that the applications of the Tai Chi movements were most effectively expressed in the context of Shuai Chiao. The long, graceful movements of Yang style Tai Chi flow naturally into the locking and throwing techniques of Shuai Chiao. Expanding the typical applications of the movements with Shuai Chiao added great depth and effectiveness to the system. Tai chi is Shuai Chiao and Shuai Chiao is tai chi.With science and technology now able to study the effect of Tai-Chi and Chi Kung on the body, the benefits of what the ancient masters already knew of are becoming more accepted and sought after. Ch'ang's Tai-Chi is no exception. The soft, circular arm movements and constant emptying and filling of the legs with the body's weight develop strength, poise and balance. Tai-Chi's power is developed in the legs, controlled by the waist and manifested in the fingertips. The continuous twisting of the waist massages the internal organs and yields increased vitality and a sense of calm.
Same Trick
Black Belt
Chang Taiji comes from Yang Jianhou linage and at least the absence of three punch in one step hasn’t been changed
Same Trick
Black Belt
That’s a good resume on Chang Taiji and Taiji in general, and nowhere it mentions forced breathing
OP
OP
By using breathing to coordinate Taiji form training speed in Chang Taiji was passed down mouth by mouth and not written down on any text.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
I would agree that this is often true, but definitely Not 100%. This forum is for people with a passion for the martial arts, of all skillsets and experience.
'Dumb' questions are not only allowed but encouraged.
'Dumb***' answers are Not.
People process information differently. Some need more than others.
Hey, if my dumb *** wants to answer a question, it will. /s
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I actually feel that borrowing from different martial arts to mix into someone’s primary method can be filled with problems. People are gonna do what they want to do. But real problems exist that people are often not aware of and those problems can make the material non-functional as well as injurious to practice.
Chinese martial arts are typically built upon a certain foundation. The techniques and methodologies that are part of the curriculum are meant to work on that specific foundation. The foundation can be quite different from one system to another. If you try to bring techniques from one system into another and you don’t understand the foundation differences, those techniques may not work and you could hurt yourself because the movement becomes unnatural when done on the wrong foundation. By way of example, I can think of several fundamental techniques in Tibetan Crane that work very naturally on our foundation, but could easily tear up your shoulders if you try to make them work on a Wing Chun or Kenpo foundation. Mixing is not always a good idea. Often people get away with it even when it’s not optimal, but in some cases it could be downright dangerous and a bad idea.
People always want to add more to what they do. They see what others are doing, they see differences or something that looks effective so they want to add that to their stuff too. But they don’t understand that that stuff that is so effective that the other guy is doing is only effective because he is working it on a different foundation. If you don’t understand the different foundation and you don’t know how to employ it, adding that material to what you are already doing can be a bad idea. I’ve said this many times before and I’ll say it again, everyone wants to add new stuff but people rarely stop to consider what should NOT be added.
Mixing and borrowing from Taiji? Would a karate guy insert Wave Hands or Repulse Monkey in the middle of Sanchin? I think that would make no sense.
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