Some MA teachers only teach form without application?

[Xue Sheng]

Understand Taiji application has nothing to do with fighting. The difference between Taiji and dancing is that Taiji has kick/punch/lock/throw.

Understanding exactly what you are doing is more fun.

 

[windwalker099]

You also wrote, Wang Yongquang said, "When practicing Tai Chi, you must first determine the correct purpose according to your
age, physique, personality, environment and the development of your practice. Elderly people practice boxing to prolong their life, while young people seek combat."

I disagree with Master Wang Yongquang. It isn't that I don't consider him an authority, I just think he's wrong.

"This book of boxing quotations compiled by Mr. Liu Jinyin is consistent with what my
father said, and it uses many original words, which is real, vivid and original. When I
read it, I felt as kind as if my father was talking to me when he was alive, as if I was
listening to his teaching again."


Did you read the book, before arriving at your "thinking" ?


The book explicitly states that the practices for health and martial applications are fundamentally the same, with differences in focus.

Paraphrasing from the book:

For health: Relax both body and mind, move naturally without force. Focus on nourishing internal energy, guiding movement with intention rather than strength. Let qi flow smoothly from the center outward and return. Maintain a soft gaze and avoid strain. True practice balances internal and external harmony for health and vitality.

For martial arts: Young practitioners should focus on understanding themselves and their opponents. In Yang-style Taiji, internal strength is key—techniques must be developed alongside movements, not separately. True skill comes from cultivating spirit, intention, and qi. First, build a strong foundation in Tai Chi strength before applying techniques.

This distinction highlights that while the approach may differ, the underlying principles remain the same.

The story of Wang Yongquan and Shen Jia-Zhen

In reality it was only that he was unaware of the combat applications of the form, and it could easily be seen from watching.
This incident reportedly embarrassed Wang Yongquan, who later dedicated himself to deeper training and became a very successful and influential teacher.

No links, no sources, makes no sense


'excerpt from the book outlining his MA history:

Yongquan started learning from his father at the age of 7, and at the age of 14, he
became a disciple of Yang Jianhou's third son, Yang Chengfu. He also often received
instruction from his uncle Yang Shaohou. Therefore, he was taught by three boxers
from two generations of the Yang family and deeply understood the true meaning of
Yang Style Tai Chi.

He was a student of Yang Chengfu who was both virtuous and talented. Yang often took
Wang Yongquan with him when he went out to compete. Because of his high martial
arts skills, he earned the nickname "Little Tiger".

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The choice can come in choosing why you study. If I want to study taiji for health, understanding correct fight application may take time from the actual practice of movement towards my goal.

I respectfully disagree with you. Your goal of health is fine, you will get less of your goal without attempting an understanding of the whole of Tai Chi Chuan. I will give an example. If you never learn proper applications you will never understand the reason for the angles or the postures. If you don’t understand the reason for the posture there will be no intention and your practice will be sloppy in form. If your form is not aligned because you don’t know why your feet need to be here or there for an application to work, you are not allowing the form to shape your practice. I see this a lot, it isn’t conjecture, it’s consistent observations over almost 3 decades of practice. In the end, it’s your relationship to you, and your relationship to the earth. Make it your own, and do you, but let’s not conflate dancing through the form with practicing Tai Chi Chuan.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

For those of us here, most likely. Not necessarily for everyone. Some people may simply enjoy the movement for its own sake.

That’s fine, but it is not Tai Chi Chuan.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Tai Chi Chuan means Supreme Grand Ultimate Fist/Pole. Why will we choose this solely for health and eschew the martial aspect? This makes very little sense to me. What if I chose to do Aikido for health but chose not to learn the martial application? Solo jujitsu exercise without application? Again, it’s up to the individual, but I don’t believe the health aspect is completely available without proper form, focus, and intention. Proper form, focus, and intention are not even possible without understanding the why of the postures and transitions.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You love this, you know you do. It’s as tasty as…wait for it…

 

[Same Trick]

The story of Wang Yongquan and Shen Jia-Zhen
According to the story, in the very early days Wang Yongquan approached Shen Jiazhen and Chen Fa-ke, hoping to secure a position teaching Taijiquan. At that time, martial arts instructors often needed to demonstrate their skills to prove their qualifications.
However, when asked to perform, he could only show the basic forms for health (which were much less demanding than the combat applications) and thus Wang Yongquan struggled. Some versions of the story suggest that he was either too weak, out of practice, or did not meet the high technical standards of Chen Fa-ke’s strict requirements. In reality it was only that he was unaware of the combat applications of the form, and it could easily be seen from watching.
This incident reportedly embarrassed Wang Yongquan, who later dedicated himself to deeper training and became a very successful and influential teacher.

Are you sure you got the right Wang in that story ? I’ve never read/heard about that story before as it’s presented in your post.

However this story that has some similarities with the one you present has been around long. The Wang in this story is Wang Jiaoyu.the TJQ teacher of Kuo Lienying the pioneering TJQ teacher in the US founder of GuangPing-TJQ style.-

“Wang Jiao-yu.” Wang claimed to visit as a traveling martial artist and as such was immediately invited in. Wang introduced himself as a student of the Yang family.”

“We then requested a demonstration of his martial arts, which he only half competed before he ran out of breath.”

“Xu then gave him ten dollars for immediate relief of his poor financial circumstances. Both Master Chen and I gave him five dollars”



Chen Fake — Chen Zhonghua Taiji Academy Phone: 780-413-0454

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I would like to offer something my Sigung and my Sifu said. “ Tai Chi is a meditation in movement, it is a method of acupuncture in movement, and it also a martial art. The three are interdependent and cannot be separated, although each practitioner will give greater emphasis to one of the three.”
James Wing Woo.

 

[Appledog]

However this story that has some similarities with the one you present has been around long. The Wang in this story is Wang Jiaoyu.

You're ruining my joke

Introduction of Yang Style Lao Liu Lu Taijiquan

In the time of Qing Dynasty, taijiquan was quite popular in the royal palace due to Prince Pu Lun Bei Zi, a man of great power and wealth, who appreciated the fighting technique of Yang-style taijiquan. He recognized the martial applications disguised in the slow, graceful movements, as if there...

ymaa.com

There are many biographies of Wang Yongquang, written and unwritten, all of which contain secrets waiting to be plucked like ripe fruit. WYQ in particular has had a lot written about him at various points of his life, to his credit, we know a lot about him and thus we gain a valuable insight into Yang style Tai Chi.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You're ruining my joke

Introduction of Yang Style Lao Liu Lu Taijiquan

In the time of Qing Dynasty, taijiquan was quite popular in the royal palace due to Prince Pu Lun Bei Zi, a man of great power and wealth, who appreciated the fighting technique of Yang-style taijiquan. He recognized the martial applications disguised in the slow, graceful movements, as if there...

ymaa.com

There are many biographies of Wang Yongquang, written and unwritten, all of which contain secrets waiting to be plucked like ripe fruit. WYQ in particular has had a lot written about him at various points of his life, to his credit, we know a lot about him and thus we gain a valuable insight into Yang style Tai Chi.

Interesting that you pick a ymaa reference. Dr. Yang Jwing Ming is my current teacher, I live 2 miles from him. I teach Wing Woo Gar as it is my primary art, both my Sifu Paul Gale and my Sigung James Wing Woo have passed. I train with Dr Yang a couple times a week at his house with a couple of my training brothers. I am very fortunate, and grateful to have had such teachers in my life.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For those of us here, most likely. Not necessarily for everyone. Some people may simply enjoy the movement for its own sake.

We can only speak for what we like to do. We can't speak for others what they should do.

I was a folk dancing instructor. I was also a Go-Go dancing champ in college once. For health, both folk dancing and Go-Go dancing can give me as much benefit as Taiji can.

From MA point of view, "Taiji waist' is famous among all other MA systems. By using Taiji principle, if you want to pull

- your opponent into you, you should have your weight on your back leg.
- yourself into your opponent, you should have weight on your front leg.

Taiji is so clear about this. Other MA system may not address this clearly.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I train with Dr Yang a couple times a week

Have you learned any of the following open hand forms from him? If you are interest in long fist, Dr Yang will have a lot to offer.

1. 10 road Tan Tui,
2. Lien Bu Chuan,
3. Gong Li Chuan,
4. 1st road Mai Fu Chuan,
5. 2nd road Mai Fu Chuan,
6. Shi Zi Tang,
7. 3rd road Pao Chuan,
8. Si Lu Ben Da,
9. Shao Hu Yen,
10. 4th road Cha Chuan,
11. Tai Zu Chang Chuan,
12. Kung Wu staff,
13. 7 stars knife,
14. Bagua knife,
15. San Cai sword,
16. Kung Wu sword,
17. Yang's family spear.

 

[windwalker099]

A KATUSA ("Korean Augmentation to the U.S. Army") soldier I introduced to Taiji in the late '70s—teaching the 37-step form at the time—later went on to study "태껸" (Taekkyeon).

Taekkyeon shares some similarities with Taiji but has its own distinct Korean influence. Some aspects strongly resemble traditional Korean folk dance.

"Taekkyeon is the only martial art in the world you can do without causing physical damage "

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Have you learned any of the following open hand forms from him? If you are interest in long fist, Dr Yang will have a lot to offer.

1. 10 road Tan Tui,
2. Lien Bu Chuan,
3. Gong Li Chuan,
4. 1st road Mai Fu Chuan,
5. 2nd road Mai Fu Chuan,
6. Shi Zi Tang,
7. 3rd road Pao Chuan,
8. Si Lu Ben Da,
9. Shao Hu Yen,
10. 4th road Cha Chuan,
11. Tai Zu Chang Chuan,
12. Kung Wu staff,
13. 7 stars knife,
14. Bagua knife,
15. San Cai sword,
16. Kung Wu sword,
17. Yang's family spear.

No, but I plan to at some point. Mainly, my focus with him has been Qinna, Tai Chi Chuan fighting sets, and Shaolin White Crane 2 man sets. We have Tan Tui in Wing Woo Gar already. He certainly has a lot to offer, but as with all my martial arts endeavors, there is never enough time for everything I want to do. I need another 100 years.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I respectfully disagree with you. Your goal of health is fine, you will get less of your goal without attempting an understanding of the whole of Tai Chi Chuan. I will give an example. If you never learn proper applications you will never understand the reason for the angles or the postures. If you don’t understand the reason for the posture there will be no intention and your practice will be sloppy in form. If your form is not aligned because you don’t know why your feet need to be here or there for an application to work, you are not allowing the form to shape your practice. I see this a lot, it isn’t conjecture, it’s consistent observations over almost 3 decades of practice. In the end, it’s your relationship to you, and your relationship to the earth. Make it your own, and do you, but let’s not conflate dancing through the form with practicing Tai Chi Chuan.

I’ll just have to disagree. Postures and alignment can be taught without the combat application. And there will almost certainly be cases where an alteration to form will be of more benefit for health development, where it would be detrimental to combat application.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That’s fine, but it is not Tai Chi Chuan.

If we define tai chi Chuan as the combat art, I’d agree

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Tai Chi Chuan means Supreme Grand Ultimate Fist/Pole. Why will we choose this solely for health and eschew the martial aspect? This makes very little sense to me. What if I chose to do Aikido for health but chose not to learn the martial application? Solo jujitsu exercise without application? Again, it’s up to the individual, but I don’t believe the health aspect is completely available without proper form, focus, and intention. Proper form, focus, and intention are not even possible without understanding the why of the postures and transitions.

I’ll agree that there are some health benefits you can’t reach within an art unless you include the combat-oriented training. As for training Aikido or any other art just for health, that’s quite possible. It’s not my cup of tea, but could be done. Heck, BJJ shrimping exercises would make a great addition to some cardio classes, without needed to know what they are used for.

 

[Badhabits]

You taijiquan guys are a different breed. In a good way

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If we define tai chi Chuan as the combat art, I’d agree

In Martial Talk, Taiji is under "Chinese martial Arts Talk" category. By Martial Talk definition, Taiji has already been defined as a combat art (assume martial arts = combat art).

If Taiji is not a combat art, we won't even discuss it in this forum.

​

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is why we need to train MA application. You won't know when you will need it.

Pictured: British tourist pins down Amsterdam knife attack suspect

A British tourist has been described as a hero and awarded a medal for bravery after he tackled a suspected knifeman to the ground in central Amsterdam, ending his rampage.

www.yahoo.com

Very sad to see these comments from people:

1. Lucky he wasnt in America in a blue City... That heroic act would have landed him in jail for assault and he'd have a multi years long trial here.

2. Yes, you noticed the rest of the world is better than America. These days the USA is a bad example for almost everything.

3. Good thing he didn't take that guy down in new york, he would be sitting in jail right now.