Some MA teachers only teach form without application?
- Thread starter Kung Fu Wang
- Start date
Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
To this, I would offer my viewpoint, it’s only my opinion and nothing more. One cannot make a choice where there is no choice. That is to say, if I don’t know how to dance, I am not able to choose not to dance. It’s just something I don’t know. If I don’t know how to fight, I can’t make a decision not to fight. The virtue is in learning and being able to do it, while being able to choose not to. Without virtue, the practice loses meaning.
Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
100% agree with you here.I taught Taiji class to a group of old people (over 60). I always taught them form along with application. One guy said, "Do you expect us to fight in our age?" I said, "Application is the guideline for a correct form. Without the application guide line, the Taiji form can be evolved beyond recognized."
For example. when you do the Taiji "double pulling", Should your
1. both palms face down?
2. both palms face up?
3. left palm face down while the right palm face up?
4. right palm face down while the left palm face up?
When you use "double pulling", there is only 1 correct way to do it.
Also, when you use "double pulling", should your weight be
- on your leading leg (you want to pull yourself into your opponent)?
- on your back leg (you want to pull your opponent into you)?
Without understanding the application, how do you know which way is the right way?
Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
I disagree here, these are ideas meant to stimulate thought on the topic or the process. It’s not meant to be taken in a literal sense. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Mmmmmmm…baby….the other OTHER white meat…
OP
OP
Understand Taiji application has nothing to do with fighting. The difference between Taiji and dancing is that Taiji has kick/punch/lock/throw.
Understanding exactly what you are doing is more fun.
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Same Trick
Black Belt
Hmm, it’s only on you if you feel trolled by my question, it was no trolling, I asked you if you would elaborate on this that you wrote -
“Question is, whether or not you want to become a kungfu master. A member of the jianghu underworld, terrible and free, treacherous as the sea”
but you answered you wouldn’t, and added that you don’t get paid for it. Sorry, I thought that was a weird statement you made and perhaps that’s why I wrote the old Swedish saying about A&B, it wasn’t meant to make you go fully up into the roof, im sorry that you took it that in that way.
Also I absolutely have not imply you might be involved in crime, but perhaps you’re too a sensitive person and perhaps I should have thought about that possibly, so no you’re not a criminal and I’m sorry if I made you think so or any other such way you interpreted.
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Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
I like em I just can’t eat a whole one by myself.
Appledog
Green Belt
The statement 'not that I am being paid for it, or that I have anything of value' means that I do not have some over-riding obligation to explain things to anyone. For what it is worth, yes, this is a good level of wu de -- there must be an exchange of value between a teacher and a student, and I have always said in the same breath it does not need to be monetary. One initial gift which must be given is the gift of a question, meaning, the student is demonstrating that they consider the teacher has something they wish to learn. TO be fair, you have, although somewhat in a joking manner, stated you don't want to learn from me. So in that respect at least I don't think it is proper for me to try and teach you or explain too much. And as I said anyways, "not that I have anything of value anyways".
Ehh don't worry about it. But for what it is worth, the way I like to imagine jianghu is people who do martial arts professionally. Now, this does not mean their 'career' is bodyguard, medals/competitions, or teaching, or other. It just means that they pursue it instead of a day job. For most people, this is not possible or even desirable. These people do not sit in their houses all day but will frequently go out into the nature. Like Maria in the sound of music, wandering in the hills.
Appledog
Green Belt
Ha! I love it, and the video about rage being your master is hillarious. Nevertheless it is an important trope of Chinese philosophical literature so it is important to understand what it means. I was agreeing with you -- you cannot actually use these as logical statements in a discussion.
issue #1: it's not a general philosophical premiseMy post was a disagreement with KFW's characterization of my post.
Your post was "what I meant" "Those who speak do not know"
good example,
thank you
issue #2: (therefore) "not something you can just pick up and throw at people you disagree with,"
Yes, I am aware you were disagreeing with KFW's characterization. But you did it in a way which I found strange. I felt it was important to give some background on this term.
You also wrote, Wang Yongquang said, "When practicing Tai Chi, you must first determine the correct purpose according to your
age, physique, personality, environment and the development of your practice. Elderly people practice boxing to prolong their life, while young people seek combat."
I disagree with Master Wang Yongquang. It isn't that I don't consider him an authority, I just think he's wrong.
Let's go full circle now and discuss teaching form without applications by choice. This quote you gave by wang, BTW, was excellent, and I am happy that people are picking up on this. Keywords here, you said, "commercially viable" -- perhaps something we could get into later, but very similar.
Taiji Rebel; "Knowing the kind of students you wish teach is an important lesson for any martial artist." Ahh, interesting. Computer, zoom in. Magnify. Enhance.
I would say you (windwalker) hit the nail on the head; "If that’s the case, why teach Taiji? Why not focus on moving Qigong or something similar instead?" In fact these people will achieve greater benefits if they work on real Qigong and not a reduction of Taijiquan.
I spent some time meditating about this and I came up with the concept that this is all related to the defeciency of the Wu De "Chi3" (Shame).
Let us relax and open our minds.
Chi -- Sense of Shame
- Definition: An internal awareness of moral failure, which drives self-correction and ethical behavior.
- Example: Mencius 6A:10: "A sense of shame is the beginning of righteousness."
- Connection: Chi works alongside Yi (righteousness) as a mechanism for maintaining moral integrity.
Some examples from literature;
Analects 2:3 – Confucius said:
“If a man is without a sense of shame, what good is he?”
This suggests that shame is essential to being a morally upright person.
Analects 4:14 –
“Do not be concerned that no one recognizes your merits. Be concerned that you may fail to recognize others' merits. The noble person has a sense of shame regarding their own failings.”
Here, shame is a motivator for self-improvement rather than external validation.
Mencius 6A:10 (above) –
“A sense of shame is the beginning of righteousness.”
This implies that moral action arises when a person feels shame for wrongdoing.
Mencius 7A:6 –
“Shame and a sense of respect are deeply rooted in human nature.”
Mencius argues that shame is an innate moral faculty, essential for ethical living.
Book of Rites (Liji), "Doctrine of the Mean" 20 –
“Shame leads one to correct oneself, and correcting oneself leads to harmony with others.”
This passage connects shame to self-regulation and social harmony.
Those who eschew the martial arts
Chen Zhonghua said,“If you choose not to learn the applications from Tai Ji, Tai Ji becomes fake Tai Ji, it losses its intrinsic nature. Moreover, if you don’t understand the application, the external movements will be wrong. This can only lead to one conclusion – we are not inheriting and passing on Tai Ji as a complete cultural artifact, instead we are stripping the spirit of Tai Ji from the art, mutating it, and allowing it to be passed on only in name. I’m not trying to be an alarmist, but this inevitable outcome has given me sleepless nights. Millions of people have spent and invested a great amount of time, money, effort and emotions, only to have the real Tai Ji elude them for life. Some will never have the chance to see and experience what real Tai Ji is. The real Tai Ji, as passed down by our ancestors, are facing a slow and painful death. The cost of this death is too high, the reality too cruel. This is just too depressing…”
I think this mainly applies to the choice of studying Taijiquan as a health art, not the inability to teach properly (which is nicely explained by JohnWang in an above post).
Those who are not humble
Chen Zhonghua said,“Mastering Taiji is nearly a futile effort. You will never perfect Taiji. In every 100 years, only a few Taiji masters are produced and only a few Qigong masters as well. i.e. your chances of becoming one of these is close to nil. You may have better luck becoming the president of your country. The secret is that even knowing this, you do not quit.
Beyond that, even if you were able to master Taiji, then nobody would know it because it cannot be seen and it also can be duplicated by using external methods. The only way to know is if you can still do it when you are older.”
Thus we see a key component of shame is the acceptance of one’s fate. It is only via this acceptance can we find the drive to push forward. It is like other things in Taiji. We must accept if our peng is not enough, and move to Lu, or Ji. The question is, how badly do you want it, and a sense of shame in this sense is a valuable moral high ground. It is not necessarily shame in the sense of feeling bad because you did something bad; it is the recognition of evil in the world, and the desire, knowledge, and willingness to step up and be the change one wants to see in the world.
Those who are not dedicated
It is written of Chen Fa-Ke,“Chen Fa-ke was born when his father was in his sixties, and both of his older brothers had already died. Consequently, he lived a relatively privileged life. During his youth, Chen frequently fell ill and was occasionally confined to bed. Due to his health issues, he did not engage in the practice of his family's martial art. One evening, Chen Fa-ke overheard his relatives criticizing his weakness and suggesting that he had failed to live up to the expectations of his ancestors. This greatly disturbed Chen. He yearned to prove his relatives wrong but feared it might be too late. In comparison to others within Chen village, he considered himself lacking in martial arts ability. This question haunted him until he realized that by dedicating himself to the practice of his family's art, he could enhance his skills. Over the next three years, while others rested or relaxed after their daily chores, Chen diligently practiced the various forms of Chen's family tai chi. Whenever he had questions, he sought help from everyone around him. His unwavering determination made him one of the most accomplished practitioners in Chen village. When his father returned for a visit, he was pleased with Fa-ke's achievements.”
The story of Wang Yongquan and Shen Jia-Zhen
According to the story, in the very early days Wang Yongquan approached Shen Jiazhen and Chen Fa-ke, hoping to secure a position teaching Taijiquan. At that time, martial arts instructors often needed to demonstrate their skills to prove their qualifications.
However, when asked to perform, he could only show the basic forms for health (which were much less demanding than the combat applications) and thus Wang Yongquan struggled. Some versions of the story suggest that he was either too weak, out of practice, or did not meet the high technical standards of Chen Fa-ke’s strict requirements. In reality it was only that he was unaware of the combat applications of the form, and it could easily be seen from watching.
This incident reportedly embarrassed Wang Yongquan, who later dedicated himself to deeper training and became a very successful and influential teacher.
These examples indicate the Chinese morality of Chi(shame). If you disagree, it doesn't matter. Maybe you are even right, but this is the cultural context in which the arts emerged and I feel it is important to be aware of it. After all, as Wing Woo Gar said, "One cannot make a choice where there is no choice. ... The virtue is in learning and being able to do it, while being able to choose not to. Without virtue, the practice loses meaning."
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Same Trick
Black Belt
The taiji form the outer shape is borrowed from a form of long fist boxing, as such that part of taijiquan have its direct martial applications such as specific punching, kicking and throwing and such.
Then there is another part of taijiquan practice that’s more basic, rudimentary “application” of just sensing and working with the forces of pushing and pulling, this we all learn to experience from we were toddlers, gravity pulls us down and we push up against it, as we grow up we experience everyday things and attitudes that either push and pulls us and we learn as good as we can to handle it, so the essence of the forces of push and pull are the applications we all can make use of in our taijiquan forms practice. Yes it may sound abstract and have nothing to do with martial arts, and it may also prove easier said than done to do but if one manage it for example the “swimming” in air concept while doing the taiji form one will experience gained skill not only in everyday life but also when trying out some actual touch hands.
Then there is another part of taijiquan practice that’s more basic, rudimentary “application” of just sensing and working with the forces of pushing and pulling, this we all learn to experience from we were toddlers, gravity pulls us down and we push up against it, as we grow up we experience everyday things and attitudes that either push and pulls us and we learn as good as we can to handle it, so the essence of the forces of push and pull are the applications we all can make use of in our taijiquan forms practice. Yes it may sound abstract and have nothing to do with martial arts, and it may also prove easier said than done to do but if one manage it for example the “swimming” in air concept while doing the taiji form one will experience gained skill not only in everyday life but also when trying out some actual touch hands.
Same Trick
Black Belt
no one demand you to comment, if you dont know you don’t know, no one will blame or look you down for that
Same Trick
Black Belt
thank you for your explanation on the Jianghu, as I previously wrote and you miss understood about the criminal organization/triad thing, I just mentioned my knowledge about what and were the concept of Jianghu is mentioned for example it may apply to the criminal underworld/triads, and you yourself did write “underworld” so that’s why I asked you to elaborate what you actually meant by that, one of my teachers here in China at least he was involved in such things when younger, actually the specific martial art he teach have some ties to that world, so I find that concept of Jianghu interesting.
However When it come to “Sound of music “ that’s out of my reach.
Taiji Rebel
2nd Black Belt
There are plenty of people who enjoy dancing through the form. If a person understands they are dancing and enjoys doing so, why is that less fun for them?
Taiji Rebel
2nd Black Belt
Taijiquan is a form of qigong. There are a few local teachers here who train Chen-style with Chen Xiaowang. They understand the applications and pursue the martial aspects, but also lead a number of classes without ever teaching the applications. Those who attend these application-free classes benefit in many different ways. There are also professional boxers who lead non-contact classes for health and wellbeing. And yet again nobody in the boxing world fears the fighting skills will be lost. My original point is there are all kinds of people and teachers in this world and every single one has their part to play. Nobody is being harmed, no art is being diluted, and there is no need to try and control who does what - all we need do is continue walking our own path, enjoy our own practice and leave others to do the same
While I agree with the basic point you are making, I’ll add a question for thought: is the “one right way” because of the application? If so, it’s possibly not the one right way when that application isn’t the point. In fact, for someone learning for a different application (improving movement and health, rather than combat), that “one right way” may not be longer be the best way.I taught Taiji class to a group of old people (over 60). I always taught them form along with application. One guy said, "Do you expect us to fight in our age?" I said, "Application is the guideline for a correct form. Without the application guide line, the Taiji form can be evolved beyond recognized."
For example. when you do the Taiji "double pulling", Should your
1. both palms face down?
2. both palms face up?
3. left palm face down while the right palm face up?
4. right palm face down while the left palm face up?
When you use "double pulling", there is only 1 correct way to do it.
Also, when you use "double pulling", should your weight be
- on your leading leg (you want to pull yourself into your opponent)?
- on your back leg (you want to pull your opponent into you)?
Without understanding the application, how do you know which way is the right way?
The choice can come in choosing why you study. If I want to study taiji for health, understanding correct fight application may take time from the actual practice of movement towards my goal.
For those of us here, most likely. Not necessarily for everyone. Some people may simply enjoy the movement for its own sake.
Same Trick
Black Belt
Yes that is an argument that sometimes comes up. I would say as I pointed out in my previous post that the taiji form originally a Long fist form and as such contain a “ gymnastic” value in its large open postures together with its martial value, a deliberate design.,
Infused with a “taiji” mind the outer shape may change a bit but still hold a certain purpose of keeping the body fit, that’s why it’s good to keep the long form as a vessel
