I agree! Waste a lot of words without saying anything.
I truly hate this kind of logic, "To gain is to lose; to lose is to gain." By using this logic, I can come up with:
- To be rich is to be poor; to be poor is to be rich.
Ha! I love it, and the video about rage being your master is hillarious. Nevertheless it is an important trope of Chinese philosophical literature so it is important to understand what it means. I was agreeing with you -- you cannot actually use these as logical statements in a discussion.
My post was a disagreement with KFW's characterization of my post.
Your post was "what I meant" "Those who speak do not know"
good example,
thank you
issue #1: it's not a general philosophical premise
issue #2: (therefore) "not something you can just pick up and throw at people you disagree with,"
Yes, I am aware you were disagreeing with KFW's characterization. But you did it in a way which I found strange. I felt it was important to give some background on this term.
You also wrote, Wang Yongquang said, "When practicing Tai Chi, you must first determine the correct purpose according to your
age, physique, personality, environment and the development of your practice. Elderly people practice boxing to prolong their life, while young people seek combat."
I disagree with Master Wang Yongquang. It isn't that I don't consider him an authority, I just think he's wrong.
Let's go full circle now and discuss teaching form without applications by choice. This quote you gave by wang, BTW, was excellent, and I am happy that people are picking up on this. Keywords here, you said, "commercially viable" -- perhaps something we could get into later, but very similar.
Taiji Rebel; "Knowing the kind of students you wish teach is an important lesson for any martial artist." Ahh, interesting. Computer, zoom in. Magnify. Enhance.
There are benefits to training without application. Not all students intend to fight or defend themselves. The original myth regarding kung-fu begins with monks being taught to improve their overall health and strength for meditation.
Tai chi is often taught to those with no aim of fighting and continues to serve people throughout China and the rest of the world. You can also see examples of non-contact boxing being used in various way to keep people fit and healthy which benefits them greatly.
There will always be clubs that attract those who wish to learn the fighting arts, just as there will always be those who enjoy learning the forms and exercises with no desire whatsoever to learn the fighting methods. The martial arts will never fade into obscurity or lose their fighting style - there are too many instructors and students who enjoy sparring and fighting in competitions.
Karate has also been used and taught in non-contact settings such as gyms and health centers for those who wish to keep themselves fit and healthy. Combat fitness classes are also big in gyms, as are MMA-styled training classes and bootcamps.
I would say you (windwalker) hit the nail on the head; "If that’s the case, why teach Taiji? Why not focus on moving Qigong or something similar instead?" In fact these people will achieve greater benefits if they work on real Qigong and not a reduction of Taijiquan.
I spent some time meditating about this and I came up with the concept that this is all related to the defeciency of the Wu De "Chi3" (Shame).
Let us relax and open our minds.
Chi -- Sense of Shame
- Definition: An internal awareness of moral failure, which drives self-correction and ethical behavior.
- Example: Mencius 6A:10: "A sense of shame is the beginning of righteousness."
- Connection: Chi works alongside Yi (righteousness) as a mechanism for maintaining moral integrity.
Shame (
chi3, 恥) in Confucianism is not about external embarrassment but an inner moral awareness that guides ethical behavior. It is connected with righteousness (
yi, 義) and self-cultivation. At its core, shame is the recognition of moral failings—whether in oneself or others—and the deep concern that arises from such awareness. This sense of shame is not paralyzing but transformative, serving as a driver for self-improvement. The avoidance of this shame can also drive continual self-improvement." Therefore even if one does not directly experience shame, the concept of shame itself can still be a valuable study.
Some examples from literature;
Analects 2:3 – Confucius said:
“If a man is without a sense of shame, what good is he?”
This suggests that shame is essential to being a morally upright person.
Analects 4:14 –
“Do not be concerned that no one recognizes your merits. Be concerned that you may fail to recognize others' merits. The noble person has a sense of shame regarding their own failings.”
Here, shame is a motivator for self-improvement rather than external validation.
Mencius 6A:10 (above) –
“A sense of shame is the beginning of righteousness.”
This implies that moral action arises when a person feels shame for wrongdoing.
Mencius 7A:6 –
“Shame and a sense of respect are deeply rooted in human nature.”
Mencius argues that shame is an innate moral faculty, essential for ethical living.
Book of Rites (Liji), "Doctrine of the Mean" 20 –
“Shame leads one to correct oneself, and correcting oneself leads to harmony with others.”
This passage connects shame to self-regulation and social harmony.
Those who eschew the martial arts
Chen Zhonghua said,
“
If you choose not to learn the applications from Tai Ji, Tai Ji becomes fake Tai Ji, it losses its intrinsic nature. Moreover, if you don’t understand the application, the external movements will be wrong. This can only lead to one conclusion – we are not inheriting and passing on Tai Ji as a complete cultural artifact, instead we are stripping the spirit of Tai Ji from the art, mutating it, and allowing it to be passed on only in name. I’m not trying to be an alarmist, but this inevitable outcome has given me sleepless nights. Millions of people have spent and invested a great amount of time, money, effort and emotions, only to have the real Tai Ji elude them for life. Some will never have the chance to see and experience what real Tai Ji is. The real Tai Ji, as passed down by our ancestors, are facing a slow and painful death. The cost of this death is too high, the reality too cruel. This is just too depressing…”
I think this mainly applies to the choice of studying Taijiquan as a health art, not the inability to teach properly (which is nicely explained by JohnWang in an above post).
Those who are not humble
Chen Zhonghua said,
“
Mastering Taiji is nearly a futile effort. You will never perfect Taiji. In every 100 years, only a few Taiji masters are produced and only a few Qigong masters as well. i.e. your chances of becoming one of these is close to nil. You may have better luck becoming the president of your country. The secret is that even knowing this, you do not quit.
Beyond that, even if you were able to master Taiji, then nobody would know it because it cannot be seen and it also can be duplicated by using external methods. The only way to know is if you can still do it when you are older.”
Thus we see a key component of shame is the acceptance of one’s fate. It is only via this acceptance can we find the drive to push forward. It is like other things in Taiji. We must accept if our peng is not enough, and move to Lu, or Ji. The question is, how badly do you want it, and a sense of shame in this sense is a valuable moral high ground. It is not necessarily shame in the sense of feeling bad because you did something bad; it is the recognition of evil in the world, and the desire, knowledge, and willingness to step up and be the change one wants to see in the world.
Those who are not dedicated
It is written of Chen Fa-Ke,
“
Chen Fa-ke was born when his father was in his sixties, and both of his older brothers had already died. Consequently, he lived a relatively privileged life. During his youth, Chen frequently fell ill and was occasionally confined to bed. Due to his health issues, he did not engage in the practice of his family's martial art. One evening, Chen Fa-ke overheard his relatives criticizing his weakness and suggesting that he had failed to live up to the expectations of his ancestors. This greatly disturbed Chen. He yearned to prove his relatives wrong but feared it might be too late. In comparison to others within Chen village, he considered himself lacking in martial arts ability. This question haunted him until he realized that by dedicating himself to the practice of his family's art, he could enhance his skills. Over the next three years, while others rested or relaxed after their daily chores, Chen diligently practiced the various forms of Chen's family tai chi. Whenever he had questions, he sought help from everyone around him. His unwavering determination made him one of the most accomplished practitioners in Chen village. When his father returned for a visit, he was pleased with Fa-ke's achievements.”
The story of Wang Yongquan and Shen Jia-Zhen
According to the story, in the very early days Wang Yongquan approached Shen Jiazhen and Chen Fa-ke, hoping to secure a position teaching Taijiquan. At that time, martial arts instructors often needed to demonstrate their skills to prove their qualifications.
However, when asked to perform, he could only show the basic forms for health (which were much less demanding than the combat applications) and thus Wang Yongquan struggled. Some versions of the story suggest that he was either too weak, out of practice, or did not meet the high technical standards of Chen Fa-ke’s strict requirements. In reality it was only that he was unaware of the combat applications of the form, and it could easily be seen from watching.
This incident reportedly embarrassed Wang Yongquan, who later dedicated himself to deeper training and became a very successful and influential teacher.
These examples indicate the Chinese morality of Chi(shame). If you disagree, it doesn't matter. Maybe you are even right, but this is the cultural context in which the arts emerged and I feel it is important to be aware of it. After all, as Wing Woo Gar said, "One cannot make a choice where there is no choice. ... The virtue is in learning and being able to do it, while being able to choose not to. Without virtue, the practice loses meaning."