Some MA teachers only teach form without application?

[windwalker099]

All "secret" can be figured out. The question is how long will that take?

Not all "secrets" can necessarily be figured out—the real question is whether they can be uncovered within one’s lifetime.
Historical accounts describe knowledge being passed down only to select individuals or within specific groups, often restricting access to key teachings.

Within internal martial arts, there is a famous quote from Yang Chengfu: "If I don't tell you this, you will never learn it in your lifetime."

This reflects a traditional teaching approach that relied on hands-on instruction and oral transmission. Some essential concepts were never written down; instead, they were passed "from mouth to ear" and "from hand to hand."

If something is truly a secret, by definition, outsider wouldn't know it.

some things are "hidden in plain sight"

The stories of past masters may or may not be embellishments—depends on whether one has encountered current masters capable of demonstrating the same skills described in historical accounts. The skills commonly known, not commonly attained.

The phrase "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" (臥虎藏龍, ) a Chinese idiom that means hidden talent and potential that is not immediately visible. It suggests that beneath an ordinary or calm surface, there are powerful or highly skilled individuals who remain unnoticed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"If I don't tell you this, you will never learn it in your lifetime."

It depends on whether you want to pass your knowledge to the next generation or not.

If you

- do, after you die, people will still remember you for your knowledge.
- don't, after you die, nobody will remember you.

Do you want to publish your research paper to proof that you are a qualified PhD, or do you want to hide your research paper and pretend you are nobody.

If you publish a Taiji book that only contain form without application, 1000 years from today, people will think that you are just a "Taiji for health" guy. You just miss your chance to prove that you do understand Taiji application. So, hold back information can only hurt your future reputation.

 

[Appledog]

Those who practice are as the hairs on the ox, those who succeed are as the horns.

This means that often times (most times) those who succeed were taught by teachers who didn't understand.

Question is, whether or not you want to become a kungfu master. A member of the jianghu underworld, terrible and free, treacherous as the sea

 

[windwalker099]

Do you want to publish your research paper to proof that you are a qualified PhD, or do you want to hide your research paper and pretend you are nobody.

With those I meet and those I know,
Skill is judged by those who understand it.

At first touch, true ability is revealed.
We are nobody until we meet others—through those encounters, we become somebody.

What we become depends on our skill.

If you publish a Taiji book that only contain form without application, 1000 years from today, people will think that you are just a "Taiji for health" guy. You just miss your chance to prove that you do understand Taiji application. So, hold back information can only hurt your future reputation.

Kind of a problem—those writing about what they cannot do, sharing with a public that does not know. "Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know"

Yet, words spread, the unskilled become authorities in the eyes of those who cannot tell the difference, through words
they or others write. such is the world, the named becomes the reality of the nameless

 

[windwalker099]

On form, the practice, what it's for.

 

[Same Trick]

Those who practice are as the hairs on the ox, those who succeed are as the horns.

This means that often times (most times) those who succeed were taught by teachers who didn't understand.

Question is, whether or not you want to become a kungfu master. A member of the jianghu underworld, terrible and free, treacherous as the sea

Jianghu ! - are you speaking of wuxia or perhaps even manga fantasy ? Or do you mean the organized crime(triad) milieu ?
If the latter, what do you know about it, Chinese martial arts wise ?

 

[_Simon_]

On form, the practice, what it's for.

Got a lot out of that, thank you

 

[Appledog]

Jianghu ! - are you speaking of wuxia or perhaps even manga fantasy ? Or do you mean the organized crime(triad) milieu ?
If the latter, what do you know about it, Chinese martial arts wise ?

I think you mentioned something about this before. The interesting part to me is that you say 'it doesn't exist', or it is a 'manga fantasy', or it is a 'crime(triad) milieu'.

Maybe it is like that, maybe like this, maybe something else? How many other things could it be? If it could be anything, it is nothing. Therefore I conclude you do not understand what I meant. You asked me 'if' and the answer is no, I am not talking about crimes. I hope that answer satisfies your curiosity.

 

[Same Trick]

I think you mentioned something about this before. The interesting part to me is that you say 'it doesn't exist', or it is a 'manga fantasy', or it is a 'crime(triad) milieu'.

Maybe it is like that, maybe like this, maybe something else? How many other things could it be? If it could be anything, it is nothing. Therefore I conclude you do not understand what I meant. You asked me 'if' and the answer is no, I am not talking about crimes. I hope that answer satisfies your curiosity.

ok, so your not exactly keen on elaborate on what you mean by your writing of “jianghu” and martial arts in reality

 

[Appledog]

ok, so your not exactly keen on elaborate on what you mean by your writing of “jianghu” and martial arts in reality

I think you mean "elaborating". If that's the case, then you are completely right. I don't feel like elaborating. I don't feel like giving 'further detail'. For what? For who? It's not like I am being paid to be here, or perhaps -- what I know to even be paid for. But if the right people can find it within themselves to ask the right questions, ahh. Then maybe I don't mind answering so much... Guv'nah.

 

[Same Trick]

I think you mean "elaborating". If that's the case, then you are completely right. I don't feel like elaborating. I don't feel like giving 'further detail'. For what? For who? It's not like I am being paid to be here, or perhaps -- what I know to even be paid for. But if the right people can find it within themselves to ask the right questions, ahh. Then maybe I don't mind answering so much... Guv'nah.

ok, you want be paid to be here ??

 

[Appledog]

ok, you want be paid to be here ??

Are you offering?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you publish a Taiji book that only contain form without application, 1000 years from today, people will think that you are just a "Taiji for health" guy. You just miss your chance to prove that you do understand Taiji application. So, hold back information can only hurt your future reputation.

I have no concern about my reputation in 1,000 years. I'd rather consider my relationships today and how my actions affect them.

 

[HighKick]

I think you mean "elaborating". If that's the case, then you are completely right. I don't feel like elaborating. I don't feel like giving 'further detail'. For what? For who? It's not like I am being paid to be here, or perhaps -- what I know to even be paid for. But if the right people can find it within themselves to ask the right questions, ahh. Then maybe I don't mind answering so much... Guv'nah.

Dude…

 

[Same Trick]

Are you offering?

No, I’ve seen pictures of you !

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have no concern about my reputation in 1,000 years. I'd rather consider my relationships today and how my actions affect them.

If we come to this world without contributing anything, why do we even come to this world for?

三不朽，即立德、立功、立言，是中国人文思想领域的一个价值命题，对于中国人的思想和人生追求有着重要的影响。钱穆则认为，西方人把不朽视为活在上帝的心里，而叔孙豹则认为人应该活在其他人的心里。而活在其他人心里的方法，就是“立德、立功、立言”

AI translation:

The "Three Immortalities"—establishing virtue, achieving deeds, and expressing words—constitute a value proposition in the realm of Chinese humanistic thought and have a significant impact on Chinese philosophy and life pursuits. Qian Mu believes that Westerners perceive immortality as living in God's mind, while Shusun Bao suggests that individuals should live in the minds of others. The way to live in the minds of others is through "establishing virtue, achieving deeds, and expressing words," [1] which is akin to one's resurrection, signifying one's immortality.

 

[Appledog]

No, I’ve seen pictures of you !

Ok, now we can bring this full circle. What makes you think I would teach you, even if you paid me?

"These are high-level skills, and they require a high level of morality to truly grasp. If one attempts to learn them without the proper moral foundation, they will not succeed." - Sun Lu-Tang

There are many, many reasons why a teacher won't teach applications. Almost without exception it can be linked to a lack of wu de in the student.

It depends on whether you want to pass your knowledge to the next generation or not.

Although certainly there are 'fakirs' out there who shouldn't be teaching, I posit that is the symptom and not the cause. It is almost inevitable that the most dedicated of them don't know because they weren't taught for reasons. The usual reason, to be frank, is that there is just not enough time to cover very much. It takes a long time to learn and if you can't spend significant time with a teacher it is difficult to learn very much. The idea of a 'tourist' is something similar, if you have come across the term in this context. The idea of a 'tourist' is more about the student not being serious or only 'visiting' than having a lack of wu-de, even though the two almost always go hand-in-hand.

"He suspected Li of sorcery, but Li informed him: “It’s not sorcery, it’s just that at the highest level the boxing art is a spiritual skill. As it is unperceived, it seems miraculous and beyond your comprehension.” From that point, his contemporaries dubbed him “Magic Boxing” Li Nengran."

Guo Yunshen once had a student named Liang.

Liang was very enthusiastic about sharing techniques with the other students. Guo wasn't totally against this but warned him that true mastery not only required skill but also wisdom in how the art was passed on, and told him that students should only be told what they need to make progress, and not the whole art. Mainly because, Guo said, teaching high-level skills to those who weren’t ready could lead to misuse or misunderstanding. Even if only they weren't able to perform the techniques correctly which could render them useless or even lead to self-injury. Also, if you teach too much to someone they may simply not even have time to practice it and give up the whole thing out of frustration. Many times, the reason people aren't taught is just for normal reasons like this and not out of malice or a desire to keep secrets. In fact, there are no secrets, except those we keep from ourselves.

 

[Teapot]

If you publish a Taiji book that only contain form without application, 1000 years from today, people will think that you are just a "Taiji for health" guy. You just miss your chance to prove that you do understand Taiji application. So, hold back information can only hurt your future reputation.

Long ago, I thought it was common sense and wisdom that one could not learn a martial art from books.

But in Taijiquan, oh boy, was I wrong. It was not common sense/wisdom at all.

1. They genuinely believe that everything about Taijiquan is within a book. Anything that is in Taijiquan that is not in this book is, therefore, not Taijiquan according to their definition. No applications in the book? Well, of course, it's because Taijiquan was not supposed to have applications. But realistically, you could only sample a small amount of applications to be in a book.
2. It also baffles me that nobody questions the credibility of these books because some of these authors... don't exist. Some are fictional. Others might be pen names of one guy pretending to be another guy, making up fake stories like how Yang Chengfu was talking to his grandfather even though Yang Luchan died before Yang Chengfu was born. So apparently, someone lied about their teacher here. Even the translator called out on this nonsense.
3. They love the use the word "Classics" which is a meaningless word because with the way they use the word, every Tai Chi book is a "classic". The last time I asked "Which classic?", they responded to me with a book written in 2003. It seems to me if someone's teacher wrote it, it must therefore be a "classic".
4. Fetishization of Ambiguity - The ambiguous language used in many Taijiquan texts functions much like horoscopes or fortune cookie wisdom. These statements are open-ended enough that a practitioner can project their own experience, struggles, or insights onto them, and feel like they've made a breakthrough.

If we come to this world without contributing anything, why do we even come to this world for?

In the context of this thread, some teachers contribute not by teaching the world itself but by teaching a handful of students. The world has no hope of learning a teacher's craft if they have no access to that very teacher.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If we come to this world without contributing anything, why do we even come to this world for?

Just because people in 1.000 years don't know what I contributed doesn't mean I didn't contribute.

 

[Same Trick]

Ok, now we can bring this full circle. What makes you think I would teach you, even if you paid me?

"These are high-level skills, and they require a high level of morality to truly grasp. If one attempts to learn them without the proper moral foundation, they will not succeed." - Sun Lu-Tang

. No, you’re twisting it here, it’s you that seems believe that when asked if you would like to elaborate on what you previously wrote believe that that it’s begging you to teach, it’s a discussion forum not a school.
The part where you previously wrote your won’t say anything further because no one paying you here, I’ve got to ask, was that a morally high and a WuDe thing ?