Some MA teachers only teach form without application?

[windwalker099]

Should a MA instructor take the responsibility for his student who got into a fight and

1. hurt someone?
2. got hurt?

What's your opinion on this?

Depends on why someone is learning, and the teacher they choose to learn from.
For some, the expectation of the teacher, is that they fight and hurt people as part of their training.

For some it might take getting "beat up" "hurt" to understand the nature of the training.
A part of the process.

Historically, Chinese martial arts were never just about fighting. They were built on Wude (武德), or martial virtue — meaning that skill had to be matched with good character and responsibility.

When martial arts came to San Francisco, some teachers were brought over as enforcers, and would also train Tong members for street fighting and protection. In those cases, the training was practical and serious — not for show or competition.

Directly involved are two Chinatown youth gangs linked with the protection racket: the Wah Ching (Chinese Youth) and the Chung Ching Yee (Loyalty and Righteousness), also known as the Joe Fong Gang, after its former leader Joe Fong, now serving ten to life for attempted murder. Fong was born in Macao, a Portuguese enclave near Hong Kong.

 

[Cri70]

Many CMA teachers only teach form but don't teach application. One of CMC's students told me that CMC charged $4,000 to learn his Taiji form (no application). CMC then charged $4,000 to fix/correct that Taiji form (still no application).

...
What's your opinion on this?

It's one of the many examples where commercial interests are based on misleading people, at least a bit.

Not the last, not the biggest.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's one of the many examples where commercial interests are based on misleading people, at least a bit.

Not the last, not the biggest.

But in grade school, high school, college, we don't see any teacher who tries to hide academic information. Why should MA teachers be any different?

If MA teachers teach 2 men drills, when you do 2 men drill without partner, you will get solo drill. If you want to link solo drills into a sequence, you will get solo form. This way, application first and form later will solve this issue completely.

This little girl's father taught her application when she was a baby.

 

[Same Trick]

Empty hand MA was generally not used on the battlefield - that's what weapons were for. The Chinese martial artists, Shaolin monks in particular, reached a high level of proficiency with spears and other pole arms. After the takeover in the 1600's by the Qing, military weapon-based MA gave way to empty hand civillian self-defense MA, especially in the south.

It was also in the 1500/1600's that Taoism became infused with CMA and led to the self-improvement aspects of CMA. There were firearms way before the Boxer Rebellion, and it was generally known you don't bring fists to a gunfight, although some fervent Boxers may have unfortunately put their faith in some Divine bullet-proofing (a real iron shirt would have been more effective). BTW, "real" empty hand combat still existed on the back roads and alleys and in challenge matches well into the 20th century.

Warfare in Okinawa ceased in the early 1600's with the Satsuma invasion, but empty hand MA was still well used by the king's bodyguards and for security agents protecting trade against pirates. With the annexation by Japan in 1879 the art was used primarily for civilian self-defense. Self-improvement as a main force did not much impact karate until Japan adopted it in the 1920's. While Okinawa's timeline was more recent than China's and the historical context was somewhat different, the evolution of TMA for largely personal use did follow some of the same pathways.

Most of those “boxers” were most probably not boxers at all, just poor commoners used for bulk up the movement, infused with spiritualism of some sort so they not so easily would back down when bullets came flying

But in grade school, high school, college, we don't see any teacher who tries to hide academic information. Why should MA teachers be any different?

Academics is just all talk anyway, cant hurt anyone.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Academics is just all talk anyway, cant hurt anyone.

- If medical professors hide information from the future medical doctors, when doctor give the wrong medicine, it can hurt more people than MA can.
- If civil engineer professors hide information from the future civil engineers, when bridge collapse, it can hurt more people than MA can.
- If MA teachers hide information from MA students, when those students get hurt in self-defense, the MA teacher will have to take the responsibility.

 

[Same Trick]

- If medical professors hide information from the future medical doctors, when doctor give the wrong medicine, it can hurt more people than MA can.
- If civil engineer professors hide information from the future civil engineers, when bridge collapse, it can hurt more people than MA can.
- If MA teachers hide information from MA students, when those students get hurt in self-defense, the MA teacher will take the responsibility.

Yes I must agree with you on this - the evil version of “pen is mightier than the sword” for sure can be the worst

 

[Buka]

- If medical professors hide information from the future medical doctors, when doctor give the wrong medicine, it can hurt more people than MA can.
- If civil engineer professors hide information from the future civil engineers, when bridge collapse, it can hurt more people than MA can.
- If MA teachers hide information from MA students, when those students get hurt in self-defense, the MA teacher will have to take the responsibility.

I’m kind of lost. Do some Kung Fu instructors do this?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I’m kind of lost. Do some Kung Fu instructors do this?

The answer is yes. I believe this is very common in CMA.

I'm reading a MA book that after a CMA master passed away, one of his students found all the letters that he wrote to his master in the past 15 years. He collected all those letters and published a book. In that book, he pointed out that his teacher taught forms without application.

I also know so many CMA teachers are doing the same. I came from CMA. But there are so many CMA tradition that I hate so much. Since I'm so strongly against this. I only teach application, and I don't teach form (I may have learned more forms than most people in this forum).

When MMA guys said that Kung Fu guys can't fight, those Kung Fu teachers should take that responsibility.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

they had even more applications that they reserved for insiders.

When a TMA teacher teaches a technique, most of the time he doesn't like to teach how to counter that technique. Most of the counters are easier to do than the techniques. This may make a student not willing to develop that technique.

My teacher told me that I should not teach how to counter "circular dragging". Many Judo guys also competed in SC tournament in Taiwan. When a SC guy grabs his Judo opponent and running in circle, those Judo guys either resisted or yielded. They didn't know how to counter it (I don't believe "circular dragging" is used in Judo at all).

Example of "circular dragging".