Some MA teachers only teach form without application?

[Tony Dismukes]

1. Only teach form. Don't teach application.
2. If a student makes mistake in that form, don't correct that student.
3. Modify the form to be easy of learning even if it may lose the original meaning.

If someone wants to teach martial arts forms for sport or health or art or cultural preservation or meditation, devoid of combat application, then I have no objection as long as they make that clear to students up front and don't pretend otherwise.

If someone wants to modify the forms to make them accessible to more students, then I have no objection as long as it doesn't compromise the objective of the exercise (sport or health or art or meditation or whatever they are aiming for).

#2 is where I draw the line. If you aren't providing feedback to your students, then you aren't being a teacher. Whether you are teaching for the sake of combative effectiveness or health or artistic performance, feedback and correction is part of the job. (Teaching through instructional videos is a special case. Whether it's for martial arts or washing machine repair, I'd say that instructional videos fall into the category of reference resources for people to teach themselves.)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some TMA teachers may think that a student who is

- not interested in MA application is a good student.
- interested in MA application is a bad student.

I believe this is the problem that put TMA in today's situation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If someone wants to teach martial arts forms for sport or health or art or cultural preservation or meditation, devoid of combat application, then I have no objection as long as they make that clear to students up front and don't pretend otherwise.

If someone wants to modify the forms to make them accessible to more students, then I have no objection as long as it doesn't compromise the objective of the exercise (sport or health or art or meditation or whatever they are aiming for).

#2 is where I draw the line. If you aren't providing feedback to your students, then you aren't being a teacher. Whether you are teaching for the sake of combative effectiveness or health or artistic performance, feedback and correction is part of the job. (Teaching through instructional videos is a special case. Whether it's for martial arts or washing machine repair, I'd say that instructional videos fall into the category of reference resources for people to teach themselves.)

I think this problem only happen in Chinese MA and doesn't happen in Japanese MA or Korean MA. So, I will address this problem toward CMA only.

I won't mention the CMA teacher's name here. One day a CMA teacher was late for his class. His young brother helped him to teach his class. When the CMA teacher arrived. He slapped on his brother's face and said, "How dare you teach this to someone outside of our family?" I'm really sick about this kind of attitude.

When MMA guys say that CMA guys cannot fight, should this kind of CMA teachers take the blame?

 

[Teapot]

Some TMA teachers may think that a student who is

- not interested in MA application is a good student.
- interested in MA application is a bad student.

I believe this is the problem that put TMA in today's situation.

I will just speak about Taijiquan specifically and say that while your anecdotes show that such a problem exists, I disagree that it's "the" problem or that it's the "biggest" problem in Taijiquan at least.

There are/were highly skilled Taijiquan teachers who taught and showed martial applications. However, as you sort of highlighted with "How dare you teach this to someone outside of our family?", they had stuff they would teach to "outsiders", and then they had stuff they would teach to "insiders".

This, by itself, is not unique to Chinese martial arts. Perhaps someone can correct me here, but doesn't Koryu (Old-school Japanese martial arts) do the same thing? They also keep their contents very private. They might have things they are willing to show for public demonstrations, but they likely have things that they refuse to show publicly.

Unlike the examples you presented, the teachers I am referring to taught and showed lots of applications to outsiders but in addition, they had even more applications that they reserved for insiders.

I am aware of stories of big-name, famous teachers who avoid teaching/showing applications to their students - which aligns with the anecdotes you are providing. However, those people I have in mind did not learn many applications to begin with - in addition to their form practice being very simplified and rudimentary.

So from my perspective, I acknowledge that outsider and insider mindset exists culturally, but it seems to me that there is a correlation where the skilled ones can show applications to both outsiders and insiders whereas the not-as-skilled ones don't know many applications which is why they don't teach applications to outsiders because it makes them look bad.

That is the pattern I notice.

So my main question comes down to: Are you sure they aren't just concerned about looking bad?

It's sort of like this. If you are wealthy, you can afford to "donate" money.

If you are poor, you don't have much money left to "donate".

Similarly, if a teacher is "wealthy" in skill and knowledge, they can afford to "donate" something to the public and have plenty of wealth to reserve for themselves.

But if a teacher is "poor" in skill and knowledge, the problem is that if they "donate" something to the public, they don't have much left. They exhaust what they know and are at risk of being exposed as lacking.

 

[windwalker099]

Here is a copy form that book (in Chinese) to prove that stupid thing like this do exist in our world. This may only happen in Chinese MA and doesn't happen in Karate.

What's your opinion on this?

Translation by AI

"Therefore, I deeply understand Master Liu's attitude towards teaching martial arts:

1. Only teach forms, not techniques.
2. Teach only, do not make changes.
3. Ensure that the movements are easy to practice without losing the integrity of the system."

You did not include the context from the book in which the statement was made. Without knowing this, how would one understand why this statement was made?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You did not include the context from the book in which the statement was made. Without knowing this, how would one understand why this statement was made?

In that text, the teacher's teaching attitude has been addressed.

"I deeply understand teacher's attitude towards teaching martial arts ..."

Here are more text from that book. The school's name has been black out to protect privacy. The high lighted text bothers me the most.

AI translation:

"Master '...' started teaching and even established a school '...'. However, in his teaching, he strictly adhered to the undesirable tradition of not lightly passing on the true methods of training to others. I exhausted all my efforts in requesting, pleading, and even sometimes inadvertently offending or showing disrespect... yet all to no avail. Under the title of head coach, I often assisted in instructing disciples at the '...' Master '...' would always stand nearby to observe—not to watch the students, but to see if I was leaking any secrets!"

This text also bother me.

Translation:

In the beginning, the teacher didn't want to teach. Later on, he didn't teach the true material but pretend he is teaching the true material.

 

[Same Trick]

Doesn’t many CMA teach “untrue” material - unnatural leg stretches and unnatural leg kicks, also teach unnatural amount of weapons….

 

[HighKick]

Doesn’t many CMA teach “untrue” material - unnatural leg stretches and unnatural leg kicks, also teach unnatural amount of weapons….

I would say for the average person, a lot of what you do when first joining any class is unnatural.

 

[windwalker099]

This text also bother me.

Don't quite understand why it would...

With the little that was provided, the context still isn't very clear. It does resonate with what I've experienced and what others have written about. Sharing a few words from an old friend on the subject.

How do you know if your kung fu is real?

Do genuine masters really withhold their best techniques from their students?
According to Grandmaster David Chin, they do.

“The old traditional masters, they were so protective of themselves,” comments Chin. “They made sure they could make a living. They didn’t want the students to compete against them.”

IME, in places where there were many people teaching, in parks and such, the teachers made sure not to show the real movements.

With IMA, it's a bit different. What makes it work is what's happening inside. Even if someone copies the outer movements, they still won't get it—unless they've reached a level of understanding where the external movements no longer matter, and are simply expressions of internal processes.

Yang Chengfu was said to have told his students something along the lines of:
"If I don't tell you, you won't understand it in a thousand years."
( 我不告訴你，你一千年也學不會。)

Today, few Americans live the type of lifestyle conducive to achieving true kung fu mastery, so keeping secrets is no longer as important as in days gone by. Quite the opposite, most contemporary masters are revealing all their secrets, in fear that if they don’t, they may be the last of their breed. And no one wants their art to die with them.

IME for most people in the West, this holds true. They neither have the time nor the necessity required to reach the level where what they practice becomes truly functional. In China, it's part of the culture. These practices are expected to be taught and developed over a long period, often spanning years or even decades. The process is gradual, with an understanding that real skill only comes through sustained, long-term cultivation.

My teacher told this story, when asked about how long something would take to develop.

His teacher told him, it would take some 20yrs to get a certain skill
He said he developed it in 15

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

His teacher told him, it would take some 20yrs to get a certain skill
He said he developed it in 15

If you start your MA training at 16, when you have developed your MA skill you are 36. You will be too old to test your skill in the ring or on the mat. Muhammad Ali retired at 36. To obtain your PhD degree when you are 80 has no meaning.

None of the tools in the toolbox (such as jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hip throw, foot sweep, single leg, double legs, ...) will need 20 years to develop.