Some grappling advice please.

[Instructor]

I am not a bjj guy so grain of salt. I would keep hold of the knife hand wrist. Scramble forward and out then fire several hard knee strikes to uke's floating ribs. While he is briefly stunned I would remove my hand from his throat fold the knife arm into a reverse goose neck and stab him with his own knife.

 

[Chris Parker]

That last bit… "stab him with his own knife"… after you've disarmed him… that's jail here, so you know…

 

[Instructor]

It's not a disarm if the knife is still in his hand.

 

[Chris Parker]

The "goose-neck" is designed to cause him to release the knife… if you have gained control, you will be seen as having the advantage, and therefore, yeah, jail. Remember, K-man and I are neighbours…

 

[Instructor]

I see your point Chris. If the knife was released then obviously I wouldn't stab him afterword.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yeah, there is no good lock available from that position. Remember, position before submission. You really need to improve your position before you try for any finishes. (Especially since in that position, if I'm the guy on the bottom you are going to get cut pretty soon.)

I've been out from training all week with the flu. Hopefully over the weekend I'll be well enough to play with the position a bit and maybe shoot some video showing you some options.

In the meantime, here are some preliminary thoughts:

You can't just inch your way into a better position, because you don't have solid enough control. On the other hand, you can't just scramble for a better position and give up control of the knife hand. You need a mobile position which will allow you to maintain control of the knife and your opponent's body while you transition into a better finishing position.

A couple of possibilities are

1) Pop up to knee on belly. From here you can strike, disengage, move to scarf hold, use your outside shin to help pin his arm (and possibly set up some crude disarms), or move to far side side-control.

2) Pin your opponent by planting your head on his belly, piking your butt up high, walking your body perpendicular to your opponent, and getting 2-on-1 control of the knife hand. This leads to some positions that are tricky to describe in print, so I wouldn't worry about it too much unless you have the grappling experience to be familiar with this type of movement.

BTW - I'm presuming from the question that you're wanting a ground grappling approach to the problem. Obviously in a real life situation with other potential assailants around, the best answer might sometimes be to pop to your feet, kick him in the groin, then sprint to find safety or a weapon of your own.

 

[Hanzou]

Sure… but not so good against a blade.

You have control over the hand and arm throughout the process. How would he be able to use the blade against you?

 

[drop bear]

I see your point Chris. If the knife was released then obviously I wouldn't stab him afterword.

Goose neck also potentially drops his knife into his other hand.

 

[Instructor]

Okay so just manipulate the arm leaving the wrist in the strong position holding the knife, then drive his hand, holding knife into himself.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Good thing from here is that you have a hand on his weapon bearing arm. Bad thing is that you are still in a scramble and have to improve your position to do anything. I would be working my way up the body on the same side for a chance at better position and stronger control of his weapon bearing arm. Preferably I would try to improve my right hand position so that it would allow me more control (as Hanzou mentioned) and I would then move my right knee up on the side of his body. Then I would place my left knee, shin on his knife bearing arm. Which would mean I have and arm and a leg on his knife bearing arm. A few headbutts later and I would take the knife. Of course I have to keep him from putting me in the half guard as I move up his body. If he does that my job just became really hard!

I can show you exactly what I mean this summer when we meet and train!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Okay so just manipulate the arm leaving the wrist in the strong position holding the knife, then drive his hand, holding knife into himself.

Ah, the old "Stop stabbing yourself. Stop stabbing yourself." routine. Good luck convincing a judge and jury after the fact that a) he was the one holding the knife at the time of the stabbing and b) you weren't in control. "Well, your honor, he was looking really despondent. I tried to explain to him how much he had to live for, but he kept stabbing himself in the ribs."

I can show you exactly what I mean this summer when we meet and train!

You making a trip out to Australia? I'm jealous.

 

[Steve]

Seems like priority number one would be to swim for the underhook on the far side, and move to mount. That could all be done while maintaining control of that knife hand. The position is very precarious, and it's screaming for the guy on the bottom to clear your hand off of his neck (easier to do than you might think) and take your back. Just my immediate thoughts. I'm very interested in seeing what you come up with, Tony.

 

[ShotoNoob]

He couldn't reach my eyes either so that wasn't an issue and while I had weight on his lower chest he couldn't turn.
Again I would have to relinquish my position which was already tenuous. In reality I think my best option was to jump up and run but I was just wondering if I was missing an opportunity for a lock.

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Let me say my ground game pales compares to BJJ, and such. It's a great illustration, to me, OF NO EASY [strike 'easy' replace with] SAFE ANSWER.
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The instant you for the lock, you're committed to the knife limb. By default the other arm & the rest of the opponent's body are basically uncontrolled.
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I'm not sure how much the fact that I'm a striker primarily is recognized here--here's my answer. Use my hand at the neck to injure the head with blow or blows. The goal is the same applied goal for traditional karate. Disable your opponent quickly & efficiently. So if I KO the knife wielder, then his knife hand becomes moot.
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If I am able to stun or inflict pain that takes away his thought process, he's distracted, preoccupied by coping with pain or trauma from my strike or strike(s), then you grapplers can take over with technical propositions from there.

 

[Steve]

Just a second to add one more thing related to my post above, priority one really needs to be to secure solid control The position K-man is in, he is at risk of finding himself with a bad guy controlling his back. Creating any space to strike bad guy will likely make losing position even easier.

even a move to knee on belly should really be done providing as little space as possible between you and the bad guy. I'd personally get the underhook on the far side and keep his arm as high as possible to prevent him from taking my back, and then keeping chest to chest, slide my right knee across the belly all the way to mount. From there, you have options (straight armlock, kimura, americana, etc).

 

[ShotoNoob]

Hey mate,

Yeah… you're gonna need to change position before you can do much from there… and pretty quickly too, honestly.

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As QFT, Times running out.... Final Answer?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Just a second to add one more thing related to my post above, priority one really needs to be to secure solid control The position K-man is in, he is at risk of finding himself with a bad guy controlling his back. Creating any space to strike bad guy will likely make losing position even easier.

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Okay, that's your assessment.

even a move to knee on belly should really be done providing as little space as possible between you and the bad guy. I'd personally get the underhook on the far side and keep his arm as high as possible to prevent him from taking my back, and then keeping chest to chest, slide my right knee across the belly all the way to mount. From there, you have options (straight armlock, kimura, americana, etc).

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My assessment is striking to accomplish what I said. Whatever I have to do to make the disabling strike, strikes >> move, shift, jump up and land a knee to the stomach first--I'm going to do. I can hit before I shift or move, I can hit several time before I more or shift, I can hit once & shift or move to hit again from a better angle or hit another target. KIME here is key. Making your strike(s) count is what traditional karate trains for. That's my assessment.
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As Chris Parker said, you have no time it's a tenuous position.

 

[Hanzou]

Striking runs the risk of opening yourself up to a counter, unbalancing yourself, and the possibility of losing control of the knife-wielding hand. Steve's assessment is right on the money because the primary goal should be to establish a more dominant position that will give you more control, and a lot more options to end the situation. Once you're in the mount, or side control, then you can attempt to strike. Frankly, I'd go for the arm bar immediately.

 

[simo.20.maroc14]

Wereyou elbowing
Him in the face aface

 

[Steve]

yeah, this is one of those situations where what seems right is actually a bad idea. It sounds like a good idea to drop some elbows or create space to drive a knee into the stomach. But as Tony said, position before submission... or in this case, position before striking. The biggest issue, regardless of how it's resolved, is that k-man's position is very, very precarious. How this is addressed can be a matter for discussion, but that it must be addressed is really not the issue.

K-man, this is very interesting, and I have to echo what Buka said. What a great exercise and way to get some constructive discussion going. Thank you!

 

[Steve]

Here are a couple of images that kind of show the danger of giving up the underhook on the far side and not establishing sound positional control. One is from half guard and the other from side control, similar to where you are at, K-man. What comes next in each of these cases is that the person on the bottom will create space by hipping back away from you (if you're creating space for them, it's even easier) and using that space to reverse the position and take control of your back.

The knife makes this even more dangerous for you, because as you lose control of the bottom guy's hips, you're also going to have less leverage to control his near side arm. I'd guess that before he even takes your back, he'll have enough leverage to clear his hand and stab you somewhere bad.