Soldier defies President.

[BrandonLucas]

Don't allow what you see here or on the cable shoutfest shows to cloud your vision. What you can see online or on TV is only one small slice, and the volume is turned up very high. Opinion polls covering the entire country show a pretty reasonable level of support and agreement for what is going on now politically.

I can vouch for this much...I live in South GA...and around here, Obama catches a bunch of racial junk. Most people around here don't know anything about him...just that he's the first black president.

The redneck and old-white-folks crowd around here hate him because he's a black guy trying to make things change, and the vast majority of the black crowd love him simply because he is black.

There is a store in the town I live in that actually specializes in Obama shirts. All I hear about all day, walking through the store, is how Obama is going to be passing out checks.

None of this is news to anyone, of course...but it's part of what really irritates me about the situation. I am not forming an opinion about him because I'm still trying to learn about him...I'm just tired of hearing all these other people who don't know anything about him either saying he's the next messiah or the next satan.

It is pretty hard to get an accurate picture of how things really are because of all the bias that is out there...which, of course, makes things really hard for me to understand.

Quite honestly, when I voted, all I knew of either one of Obama and McCain was that they were really, really bad at answering direct questions....so I wrote someone else in. I don't honestly care what either one of them stood for...the fact that neither one of them would ever get down to business in the questions that were asked during the debates really bothered me.

It's awful hard to form an opinion about the politics when you can't get the real picture.

 

[jetboatdeath]

Brandon…
Apologies accepted. You are certainly a fired up individual and that in my book is good regardless if I agree with you or not.
Yes there is a proper way to complain contacting State reps, and congress men Senators. But being that I am from Illinois it is pointless.
If you do not agree with Chicago rule in Illinois you have no voice. Look at the news of late. Every day you see something about Burris, Blogo, Quinn, Jody Weise
Chicago rules this state and we all know the state of Chicago, we in Illinois know that Obama did nothing as a senator.
He has just set a budget for 2010 that is more than all others combined. Has nothing to do with political affiliation, race, color of his pants. It is the fact that we don’t have a 3rd of the money he is asking for and getting. He said he will have the national debt cut in half by the end of his first term, but if he has to barrow trillions of dollars to do it that is just causing more debt. Just take a closer look every time he asks for more money just ask yourself how is he going to get it?
I now need to go figure out how I am going to use the 13.00 a week "tax cut" he just LOANED us. If you notice you are taxed on that....

 

[jetboatdeath]

Until you're willing to roll your sleeves up and get your hands dirty....here's a big, bold comment for you....

I am going to leave the remainder of the quote off because it is rude to say the least. But who is being the keyboard warrior here. I hope you don't act like this in public. Because if you say these things to the wrong people you will pay the price. Be a little nicer it goes a long way.

 

[searcher]

So here is a question for you all.

Ask yourself why B.O. does not have a vault copy put out there for public display? Is he scared of something? Why does he not put this puppy to rest so we can go on griping about other things he is doing?


Discuss.

 

[jarrod]

So here is a question for you all.

Ask yourself why B.O. does not have a vault copy put out there for public display? Is he scared of something? Why does he not put this puppy to rest so we can go on griping about other things he is doing?


Discuss.

i'm just speculating here, but i'd say because it's a vaguely racist demand, beneath the president's dignity to deal with further than he already has, & will do absolutely nothing to quiet those who are that unhappy with his being in office.

jf

 

[Bill Mattocks]

...will do absolutely nothing to quiet those who are that unhappy with his being in office.

I agree. It would not stop for one instant the chorus of nattering nabobs of negativity. Let the lawsuits proceed if the courts find they have merit - and whatever comes of that, there you go.

It reminds me very much of the emails I was getting from my ultra-conservative friends and family during the election (and I'm conservative, but I'm not out on that freaky tip with them).

The emails kept pointing out (like we didn't know) that Barack Obama's middle name is...gasp...HUSSEIN! Yes, Hussein! What? A MOSLUM NAME? (sp intentional) HE MUST BE A DANGED OLD MOSLUM THEN.

Right.

As I pointed out to my brain dead relatives...

1) He didn't name himself at birth. Did you?

2) If he had changed his name, they'd be venting their spleens about how he was HIDING HIS DANGED OLD MOSLUM NAME. So that's kind of a no-win proposition, huh?

3) They didn't seem to have a problem with Mohammad Ali or Kareem Abdul Jabbar, but they have a problem with Barack Hussein Obama? I guess it's OK if you're a big ol black probably MOSLUM basketball star in the NBA, but not if you're going to lead the country. But we're not RACIST or anything, huh?

One of those friend's first name is Patrick. I told him that's a Catholic name, he must be Catholic. He said no, Patrick is just a name, it's not a "Catholic" name. I said if he didn't want to be called a Catholic, he'd better change it to Lyndon or something equally Protestant-sounding. He said he would never change his name just because I thought it sounded Catholic. Hmmm. But Barack Obama should change his middle name because is is "MOSLUM" and that means he must be one, and furthermore he must change it or you'll think he's a MOSLUM forever, right? What's that I smell...sniff...sniff...yep, smells like hypocrisy. Ah, with a side-order of racism. Lovely.

 

[arnisador]

Ask yourself why B.O. does not have a vault copy put out there for public display? Is he scared of something? Why does he not put this puppy to rest

I'm guessing his lawyers have advised him that no amount of proof will convince the conspiracy theorists who are still standing, so he might as well stop here.

Meanwhile, back to the faked moon landings...

 

[CuongNhuka]

Over here to get into school, college etc plus get your National Insurance number, pay your income tax and all those official things you have to have proof of who you are and these all demand a birth certificate. I can't imagine it's different in America so surely if Obama wasn't US born someone from his past if not many would have said before now that he wasn't born in the USA?

Thing is, you don't actually have to be born in the US to be eligible. Both his parents are US born (I believe), so, even if he was born in Kenya (or where ever), it wouldn't be that big of a deal, since he would still be eligible. There is a whole bunch of legal mess in this, but, long story short, you could be born outside the US and still be fine.
Side note, W. held one elected position before he ran for President. Governor of Texas. One term. Now who's unqualified?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Thing is, you don't actually have to be born in the US to be eligible.

With a few exceptions, yes you do. The law says 'natural born citizen'.

Both his parents are US born (I believe), so, even if he was born in Kenya (or where ever), it wouldn't be that big of a deal, since he would still be eligible.

Barack Obama's father was not a US citizen, and was both born and a citizen of Kenya.

Therefore, if Barack Obama was born outside he US, he would not be a 'natural born' citizen based on current US law.

There is a whole bunch of legal mess in this, but, long story short, you could be born outside the US and still be fine.

If a person is born to two US citizens outside the US, they are still considered a 'natural born' US citizen. Senator John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone, which was a US possession at the time, but not part of the USA. His parents were both US citizens, however, so he is considered a 'natural born' US citizen.

If a child is born inside the USA, they are a US citizen and 'natural born' regardless of the citizenship of their parents, or even their legal status (under current law).

Therefore, the argument is that if President Obama was born outside the USA, he is not entitled to be President, because his father was a Kenyan citizen, not a US citizen. If he was born inside the USA, he is both a citizen of the USA and 'natural born', regardless of his father's citizenship.

Barack Obama's birth certificate is on file in Hawaii in the proper manner, and has been vetted by sources such as 'factcheck.org', which has also shown newspaper clippings from several Honolulu newspapers which announced the birth. I am satisfied that Barack Obama is a US citizen, 'natural born' and President of the USA lawfully.

However, if the current lawsuits have merit and go forward and prove otherwise, then things will change. That's what the legal process is for.

 

[Ninjamom]

Actually, as long as one of his two parents is an American citizen, and that one parent has lived inside the US for at least 2 years since turning 14, the child is automatically a natural-born US citizen.

Since his mother was an American citizen who met these conditions, Barak Obama is a natural-born US citizen, irrespective of the location of his birth.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Actually, as long as one of his two parents is an American citizen, and that one parent has lived inside the US for at least 2 years since turning 14, the child is automatically a natural-born US citizen.

Since his mother was an American citizen who met these conditions, Barak Obama is a natural-born US citizen, irrespective of the location of his birth.

This shows my understanding of our immigration/naturalization laws. One set of laws I do understand (sort of well) is the UCMJ. I'm pretty sure this soldier could be charged in a couple areas of the UCMJ. Article 134 if nothing else. By the way, that one is basicly a catch all for things military members have done that make there branch/our government look bad. A member of the military claiming that our president cann't be president kinda falls into that area.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Actually, as long as one of his two parents is an American citizen, and that one parent has lived inside the US for at least 2 years since turning 14, the child is automatically a natural-born US citizen.

Since his mother was an American citizen who met these conditions, Barak Obama is a natural-born US citizen, irrespective of the location of his birth.

No. The only law regarding one US citizen parent and one non-citizen parent when the child is born outside the USA says that the non-citizen parent must be a "US person" (whatever that is). In any case, it says that child is a citizen and does not address whether or not the child is 'natural born'.

In reality, the term 'natural born' is not clearly defined in law, and the courts have hesitated to take it up over the years. There have been other US Presidents who may have been on possibly 'shaky' grounds vis-a-vis 'natural born' status.

It's not all that clear-cut for a person not born in the USA. So if Obama was born in the USA (as I believe), it's a non-issue. If he was born outside the USA, then perhaps, perhaps not. But one thing that would be a problem - if it is found to be that Obama was born outside the USA, he lied. That would bother me more than his 'natural born' status.

But I think the whole thing is a fart in a teapot.

 

[MBuzzy]

This shows my understanding of our immigration/naturalization laws. One set of laws I do understand (sort of well) is the UCMJ. I'm pretty sure this soldier could be charged in a couple areas of the UCMJ. Article 134 if nothing else. By the way, that one is basicly a catch all for things military members have done that make there branch/our government look bad. A member of the military claiming that our president cann't be president kinda falls into that area.

Cuong,

You are definitely right that he will be hit with 134 - the General Article. But that will be the least of his worries. In most courts martial, the general article will be added, right along with conduct unbecoming (in his case, since he's an officer, that's 133). You need a pretty solid list of offenses to nail someone and no JAG would ever bring a court martial based solely on 134, but 133 and 134 are used as "tack-on" articles to catch anything else and the beef up the case....and in many courts martial, if the offender is acquitted of the other articles, he/she will almost ALWAYS be found guilty of 133 and 134. Because honestly.....if you are being brought before a court martial, you've done something wrong. Because of our internal checks and balances, our natural escalation of admin action and multiple layers of leadership, wrongful accusations are very rare. If you have done anything, 133 and 134 are a sure bet. They just aren't very strong punishments.

His biggest problem and the article of which he is in direct violation is 88 - Contempt toward officials. This is the exact reason why it is illegal... "[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct." That is a sure bet too.

The rest that I've listed below depend on just how far he's gone with this whole deal. If he is refusing to honor the president's authority and rank, he could possibly interpret any order given by any commissioned officer as unjust. So if he has disobeyed ANY order or refused to do anything as a result of this, he is in much bigger trouble. As officers, our commissions are issued directly by the POTUS, meaning an officer's authority flows from the constitution through the president. We support and defend the constitution, our Commander in Chief issues his orders based on the constitution.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Article 88. Contempt toward officials.
[/FONT]Dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Article 89. Disrespect toward superior commissioned officer.
[/FONT]Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Article 90. Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer. [/FONT]
(2) Willfully disobeying a lawful order of superior commissioned officer. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years. (3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Article 92. Failure to obey order or regulation.
[/FONT]1) Violation or failure to obey lawful general order or regulation. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years. (2) Violation of failure to obey other lawful order. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Article 94. Mutiny or sedition.
[/FONT]For all offenses under Article 94, death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Article 133. Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman.
[/FONT]Dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for a period not in excess of that authorized for the most analogous (similar) offense for which a punishment is prescribed in this Manual, or, if none is prescribed, for 1 year.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Article 134. General Article.[/FONT] Section 12 - Disloyal statements
Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.

 

[Makalakumu]

Wow. That seems like an awful mess. I wonder if we'll ever know how deep this guy gets charged. Considering the whole matter, it seems like a steep price to pay for a silly political point...

 

[MBuzzy]

Wow. That seems like an awful mess. I wonder if we'll ever know how deep this guy gets charged. Considering the whole matter, it seems like a steep price to pay for a silly political point...

It is possible, since there has been media coverage, but generally you would never hear about a court martial or the sentence. We just kind of take care of it and don't bother telling the public. It is better that way! It may be available though, since he is already public. There will probably be a PA release after the fact.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Right or wrong, moral stand or not, I'm seein' the Big Chicken Dinner in this guy's future at this point.......

 

[Makalakumu]

I have to wonder if the guy thought about going to prison over this? In these times, it seems like political issues and people are all based off of emotion and this just smacks of a very irrational decision. I hate to see someone's life get ruined, but if other people can look at this and just calm down a little bit and think clearly, then maybe there is a silver lining.

 

[MBuzzy]

Honestly, I have no sympathy for him. As Andy said, right or wrong, the guy is in trouble. He knew the rules, he violated them. John, you're right, it is a purely emotional issue and he is too small and petty to see past his own political affiliations and opinions. No matter what you think of the man, he is now the CinC and thereby our boss. Get over it....especially as a soldier - as an OFFICER. You have a duty to follow his lead and respect his position and authority.

If you noticed, the maximum punishment for some of the possible offenses is death. While I certainly don't think he will get that sentence....it shows just how serious the military is about disobeying orders or making disloyal statement about the POTUS, PARTICULARLY in a time of war.

This entire election process and aftermath has made me lose a great deal of faith in the public. I am shocked every day by people blatant lack of objectivity and inability to get past their entrenched ideas. Wishing the failure of the administration is the most disappointing thing that I have heard in my adult life.

 

[Ninjamom]

No. The only law regarding one US citizen parent and one non-citizen parent when the child is born outside the USA says that the non-citizen parent must be a "US person" (whatever that is). In any case, it says that child is a citizen and does not address whether or not the child is 'natural born'.

In reality, the term 'natural born' is not clearly defined in law,...

Re-quoted from US Code:

USC Title 8 Ch 12 SC III Pt I S. 1401 a and g
The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;
>
>
>
(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years........... ........


RETROACTIVE APPLICATION OF 1994 AMENDMENT
Section 101(c) of Pub. L. 103-416 provided that:
"(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), the immigration and nationality laws of the United States shall be applied (to persons born before, on, or after the date of the enactment of this Act [Oct. 25, 1994]) as though the amendment made by subsection (a) [amending this section], and subsection (b) [enacting provisions set out above], had been in effect as of the date of their birth

It couldn't be clearer - irregardless of the laws at the time of Obama's birth, the law as of 1994 and forward declares him to be a US Citizen at birth.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Honestly, I have no sympathy for him. As Andy said, right or wrong, the guy is in trouble. He knew the rules, he violated them. John, you're right, it is a purely emotional issue and he is too small and petty to see past his own political affiliations and opinions. No matter what you think of the man, he is now the CinC and thereby our boss. Get over it....especially as a soldier - as an OFFICER. You have a duty to follow his lead and respect his position and authority.

If you noticed, the maximum punishment for some of the possible offenses is death. While I certainly don't think he will get that sentence....it shows just how serious the military is about disobeying orders or making disloyal statement about the POTUS, PARTICULARLY in a time of war.

This entire election process and aftermath has made me lose a great deal of faith in the public. I am shocked every day by people blatant lack of objectivity and inability to get past their entrenched ideas. Wishing the failure of the administration is the most disappointing thing that I have heard in my adult life.

This pretty much says it all for me. If there were valid proof that Obama were not a natural born citizen, then by all means, let's have a trial and find out what the truth is, and why it was ignored through the entire election.

What bothers me is that this guy is willing to burn for something he has no proof of...and it's not like he's willing to go down for a belief, either. He is basically doing the same thing as if he were to approach the CEO of some huge company and accuse them of stealing company funds, but has no proof to back it up.