Soft parrying type of karate

[TimoS]

There are MANY kung fu styles that do forearm conditioning drills with a partner to harden them for blocking and striking. The arts after they went to Okinawa continued this tradition.

True. Just look for Kote kitae on e.g. Youtube

 

[K-man]

There are some softer styles of gung fu, and there are harder styles of kung fu. There are MANY kung fu styles that do forearm conditioning drills with a partner to harden them for blocking and striking. The arts after they went to Okinawa continued this tradition.

Saying there are "no blocks" in karate is a semantics game. It implies that EVERY time you see a block in a form, it is a joint lock etc. That can be a use, but many times you are also striking into the person's arm to inflict damage and by some definitions that would be a "block". So you could say that while there are no blocks, there are still blocking concepts using the same movements.

Yes, but! Conditioning the arm is to toughen it as a weapon, not necessarily to stop (ie 'block') an attack. I will always maintain that to 'block' is to stop, and I don't believe you should ever stop an attack. The 'stop' signals that the attack has failed, move on to the next. It's a subtle difference. :asian:

 

[matrixman]

Hi guys. I define soft blocks as those that come back towards the body and guide, and hard blocks as those that go away from the body and collide. If you take a look at the heians (pinans), there are virtually no blocks which come back towards the body, except for one parry you see in four and five.
Thus, the percent of blocks is virtually always going away from the tan tien. This is because the art was designed for bodyguards who weren't allowed to carry weapons to close the distance on men who were carrying weapons. Goju is another cat. Haven't looked at it much, but the argument could be made that if there are a lot of actual soft blocks, goju is 'tainted' by Chinese influences. Let me know if my thought holds water on that. Uechi is a grabbing art. Wa-uke is always a slap and grab and strike. And so on. Have a great work out. Al

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I will always maintain that to 'block' is to stop, and I don't believe you should ever stop an attack. The 'stop' signals that the attack has failed, move on to the next. It's a subtle difference. :asian:

My sensei teaches the same thing - a hard block in many circumstances signals the attacker to fire the next attack - you hard block a thrown right, and the attacker's nerve feedback tells him to automatically fire the left. As my sensei says, "then it's off to the races."

But that doesn't mean that hard blocks don't have a place. If you know that your hard block will cause the other fist to fire, for example, you can take advantage of that knowledge. You can also end the fight before the other hand can be thrown, for example, if you bang-block off the first attacking hand and use their power to speed your rebounding backfist into their face. They can throw the left all they like - at empty air. Same if you have already slipped the punch and gotten off line - his second punch may well fire, but you're just not there.

I am learning all the time, and bear in mind I'm a total newbie still. But I am coming to appreciate the value of both hard and soft blocks - they each have their place, I think.

 

[K-man]

Goju is another cat. Haven't looked at it much, but the argument could be made that if there are a lot of actual soft blocks, goju is 'tainted' by Chinese influences. Let me know if my thought holds water on that. Uechi is a grabbing art. Wa-uke is always a slap and grab and strike. And so on. Have a great work out. Al

Of course all karate was heavily influenced by the Chinese as the original guys went there to learn. In Goju all the older kata were brought back from China and the newer Gekisei kata developed by Myagi Sensei

 

[K-man]

(Sorry, pushed the wrong button

)

Goju is another cat. Haven't looked at it much, but the argument could be made that if there are a lot of actual soft blocks, goju is 'tainted' by Chinese influences.

Of course all karate was heavily influenced by the Chinese as the original guys went there to learn. In Goju all the older kata were brought back from China and the newer Gekisei kata developed by Miyagi Sensei had a distinct Shotokan influence. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

Goju is another cat. Haven't looked at it much, but the argument could be made that if there are a lot of actual soft blocks, goju is 'tainted' by Chinese influences. Let me know if my thought holds water on that.

Tainted no, unique yes. You have soft arts, and then you have hard arts. Because kata Sanchin is introduced early on in GoJu there is a misconception that this art is hard in nature. This could not be farther from the truth. With Sanchin principles taught through the colored belt ranks, it isn't until kata Tensho is introduced in the Dan ranks that the softer aspects are realized. Tensho if taught right, will open the door to the pushing hands, and softer aspects of the art. Many never get to this stage of this art because they stay stuck in the beginner teaching of the hard part of GoJu, hard/soft. Learning to fight is one thing, learning the art of fighting is another. I encourage everyone to explore your chosen art and fully understand the principles within that art. A self defense situation is ever evolving into all aspects of combat. A fighting art will teach you to win in a confrontation, but the art of fighting will point you toward an art that will transfer way into old age.

 

[matrixman]

Hi Seasoned. I find this quite interesting. I always wrote off Tensho, and even after reviewing it, I'm not a fan. No offense. The viewpoint I've got is that the soft blocks I see are not soft enough, and not appropriate as soft blocks when you put them on a sanchin stance. Of course I have a lot of disagreement with the way most people breath and put dynamic tension into the Sanchin form itself, which should be dedicated to power and not strength or breathing. But that aside, I am much more interested in the push hands concept. Never seen the Goju push hands, is it similar to the tai chi push hands? Thanks, and have a great work out. Al

 

[matrixman]

Ah, here is a link which shows a type of goju push hands.

I used to do a variation of this by the hour. Great stuff. If the forms looked like this I would jump ship in a minute.
Have a great work out. Al

 

[seasoned]

Or here also Al.

 

[seasoned]

Hi Seasoned. I find this quite interesting. I always wrote off Tensho, and even after reviewing it, I'm not a fan. No offense. The viewpoint I've got is that the soft blocks I see are not soft enough, and not appropriate as soft blocks when you put them on a sanchin stance. Of course I have a lot of disagreement with the way most people breath and put dynamic tension into the Sanchin form itself, which should be dedicated to power and not strength or breathing. But that aside, I am much more interested in the push hands concept. Never seen the Goju push hands, is it similar to the tai chi push hands? Thanks, and have a great work out. Al

With the absents of Taisabaki in this drill, it becomes a little bit forced, but the concept of redirect is still there. I will admit that the Okinawans, because of body structure, have a tendency to take the Chinese influence and add to it a little more "Go" then the "Ju" part would require. Although I can't speak for the way all GoJu is taught, I will say that kata Tensho, when done properly, will off set the Go with the Ju. With the right combination of all elements, a proper out come will emerge. Thanks for your input Al. Wes

 

[matrixman]

From what has been said on this thread, advanced forms from China, beginning forms from Okinawa, and the study of redirects, one could make a good argument for calling Goju Japanese Kung Fu, and not Karate. I know that the concepts we've discussed will help muy tai chi more than my karate. Thanks. Al

 

[seasoned]

Except, some of the long passed Okinawan GoJu masters may turn over in their graves, at that thought.

 

[TimoS]

one could make a good argument for calling Goju Japanese Kung Fu, and not Karate

Not really, IMO. Goju is karate, but e.g. Uechi ryu could easily be said to be okinawan kung-fu (not japanese, BTW).

 

[Stonecold]

I'm a Kickboxer & have trained in kempo & chito ryu karate.
In the kempo style we had many soft parries , as well as the chito ryu in higher ranks
Kickboxing use's parries the same as boxing. they allow you to redirect the punch or kick and counter very quickly.
They can be taught with out having to build up the blocking areas on the arms & legs, so they can be effectively used in a short period on time.
That's my 2 cents.
Keep Kicking!!!!

 

[punisher73]

Yes, but! Conditioning the arm is to toughen it as a weapon, not necessarily to stop (ie 'block') an attack. I will always maintain that to 'block' is to stop, and I don't believe you should ever stop an attack. The 'stop' signals that the attack has failed, move on to the next. It's a subtle difference. :asian:

That's why I said it was a semantics game. Even if I strike the attacking limb, I don't want to add "and then" to continue the attack. Most understand that "uke" means "recieve" and not "block". A correct strike to the blocking arm will change his position enough that it buys time before he CAN initiate another strike. That is the purpose of ippon kumite, you are stopping the opponent from being able to do a continuous attack.

 

[K-man]

That's why I said it was a semantics game. Even if I strike the attacking limb, I don't want to add "and then" to continue the attack. Most understand that "uke" means "recieve" and not "block". A correct strike to the blocking arm will change his position enough that it buys time before he CAN initiate another strike. That is the purpose of ippon kumite, you are stopping the opponent from being able to do a continuous attack.

Once again, I agree totally. My slant would be that the absorption or deflection of the initial attack moves your attacker's centre and gives you the advantage. If we use the arm to strike we are actually still moving the attacker off the line and still have the same advantage with the additional benefit that we may have caused some degree of incapacity as well. Either way we are not 'blocking' and although the strike may cause damage or distress, we still haven't 'stopped' that stage of the attack.

 

[repz]

Someone earlier in the post mentioned how shorin ryu is soft or that they perform parries and such.

Whenever I see videos of Shorin Ryu Karate (Matsubayashi mostly) it looks similar to shotokan. I know Shorin (with other influences) is the father of shotokan, so I can see why they would look similar, but I didnt see anything "circular" or soft from the style. I looked back a few pages back, about 8, and people mention how shorin ryu has a deep chinese kempo influence, but I dont see it, it looks like shotokan with narrower stances. Am I missing something?

I been looking into Shorin Ryu, mostly because I want to learn weaponary, and I tend to what to train in something that is less popular (not say that shorin ryu is unpopular, but its not as abundant as shotokan here in nyc), and I been in two different shotokan schools and it just doesnt seem fresh to me anymore.

Any light to the differences, or shorin ryu being softer (be it through technique or parries and such) as advancements grow?

And yes, I am aware that karate tends to throw in softiness at some point, and that its all based on the instructor, but I am looking for general answers based on the typical (or consensus in Matsubyashi shorin ryu).

 

[Guliufa]

In Okinawan Karate you will notice that the hands cross at the wrists in many of the movements.

You cannot really say that any technique is specifically for any particular attack, ultimately, whenever hands cross - as in Jodan/Chudan/Gedan Uke, they can be a parry... although they can be something else.

The term "kara" is interpreted by many as "empty", but if you look at the root it has a more profound meaning of "vastness"... takes it to a whole different level..

 

[Cirdan]

To awnser the original post, Wado (at least the way we do it) is amost only soft blocks. Move out of the way, deflect, guide the opponent out of balance etc. There are some hard ones, but these are more like strikes that breaks the structure of the opponent before power can be put behind the attack.