So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[MJS]

Reading some threads recently on KT and KN, I see debates regarding changing the material, improving things or keeping it the way it is, SL4, motion, commercial, how this person does a technique and why its right/wrong, etc. I even saw one post that was a reply to another member, stating that he was NOT doing American Kenpo!

So, my question is, with all of the various instructors out there, who is teaching the true way? I see reference made to certain people, actually one group, that was supposedly privy to things that others were not.

Is Larry Tatum not teaching an effective method of Kenpo? What about Mr. LaBounty, Mr. Conatser, Mr. Palanzo? Reading some of these posts, I get the impression that unless you're in that 'special group' then what you're doing will not work.

Now, I was not there to see a good portion of these people back in the day, when they were training with Mr. Parker. I have had the chance to see Mr. Tatum once as well as Mr. Palanzo. From what I saw, their stuff was pretty effective to me.

So, how about some clarification...who's teaching the right way?

Mike

 

[nlkenpo]

I am.

 

[gixxershane]

I am.

i just tested up in Revere at Ms.C's school....

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I am.

No you're not because no one on KN likes your Thundering Hammers. LOL.

In all seriousness there is no one right way. There are several ways. Some valid some not so valid. But I have yet to the see the one true method.

Train, practice, study, repeat.

 

[stickarts]

No you're not because no one on KN likes your Thundering Hammers. LOL.

In all seriousness there is no one right way. There are several ways. Some valid some not so valid. But I have yet to the see the one true method.

Train, practice, study, repeat.

I agree. There is no one "true" way. If it works for you it's right.
You can do a technique in various different ways while still holding true to the same principles.

 

[gixxershane]

I agree. There is no one "true" way. If it works for you it's right.
You can do a technique in various different ways while still holding true to the same principles.

equation formula:idunno:

 

[nlkenpo]

No you're not because no one on KN likes your Thundering Hammers. LOL.

In all seriousness there is no one right way. There are several ways. Some valid some not so valid. But I have yet to the see the one true method.

Train, practice, study, repeat.

That's kinda what I wanted to say, thanks James ;-)

 

[nlkenpo]

i just tested up in Revere at Ms.C's school....

Congratulations, what grade were you testing for??

Marcel

 

[michaeledward]

Interesting Question ... I study with Mr. Hogan, who has been a direct student of Mr. Planas for about twenty years or so. Over on KenpoTalk, Jason just said he recognized Mr. Planas' influence on one of my comments, so I take that as a good thing. It means I am learning the material in the way my instructor's instructor teaches it.

I will say this, though. In 2003, Ms Cogliandro hosted the Kenpo internationals in Boston. I attended the Sunday workshops, and got to work with four senior Kenpo people. Each of the four instructors touched on 'Thundering Hammers' in their session. This was not by design or plan. But, it seemed that each of the instructors did something different. Some of which was so 'different' as to be outside of what I understood to be Kenpo at that time.

One of the instructors had us 'floating' on one foot at a time, rather than 'establishing a base', (Rule #1 according to Mr. Planas). It was so far out of what I understood to be Kenpo, I just worked as the 'dummy' for others during that session.

So, I don't know if what Mr. Planas teaches is 'The Correct System'. But, for the moment, he is my instructor's instructor. I have the privilege of taking private lessons with him when he comes to town. I hope I am learning his system correctly. Hopefully, that he served as Mr. Parker's Executive Vice President of the IKKA means that his system, is the system of 'American Kenpo'. But, regardless, if I can only connect it to 'Huk Planas', that's a strong enough connection for me.

As for others, and what they teach, well, maybe in the future, when I have internalized enough from Mr. Hogan and Mr. Planas, I will be able to properly evaluate what and why the others teach and train.

 

[jaybacca72]

i too following the huk planas lineage and have trained with many kenpo people and i like huk's methods for passing the knowledge best for me that is. you never have to worry wether he has an answer to your question or not because he will give you ten that get you thinking example at jeff blay's camp one year we spent 7hrs on yellow belt and we all knew yellow belt for many years but picked up lots of extra food for thought. in italy with huk recently we set a new record of teaching reversing mace for 4hrs using the formula equation and it was awesome to say the least. i think evrybody is teaching thier own kenpo and how they percieve it or with the influence of thier instructor,or some just changed the way they learned becasue they wanted to be the king of thier own castle and have something different to market cause let's face it like it or not it is a business to alot of people i am just fortunate that it is not so for me.
later
Jay Arnold
CANADA%-}

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

I'm not much into Kenpo, but I never hear names like Ralph Castro and Rick Alemany, and I am wondering if there is a reason for that?

 

[Seig]

Mike,
If I were you, I'd listen to Huk. To everyone that says there is more than one way to do a technique, I say you only know 1/3 of what you think you do. Now, before anyone cries foul, read on. If you come from an Iron Worker lineage, there are three ways to do a technique, (yellow excluded) the base way, the extension, and then the equation variations. The problem comes in when people take the base technique they really don't understand, I've touched on levels of knowing before, decide it is flawed and change it. This shows an incredible shallowness of knowledge. I don't care who you are, if your Delayed Sword looks like crap, then I'll tell you, it looks like crap. It doesn't matter if you alter the timing, or regulate the power, crap is crap. That is what far too many people today are doing, crap. They crap on the techniques, they crap on their instructors, and then they crap on their students. So what's the point of my little tirade? If you have not been taught the base technique correctly, then the rest of it is crap and you need to get a refund.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I'm not much into Kenpo, but I never hear names like Ralph Castro and Rick Alemany, and I am wondering if there is a reason for that?

Heh-heh. Now you're going into old school politics, pre-EPAK. Back when kenpo had a whole lot fewer techniques, sets forms, etc., and more head-knocking.

But I suspect that's also why. The kenpo ownership being argued about now relates to who, among the guys who were with Mr. P for about the last 20, 10, 5 years, has the most-close-to-accurate nut-o-knowledge? Reading "the Journey", many of the featured seniors make cases about how/why their history puts thier take closer to the truth, even if they don't come out and say it. "Having run a school for Parker"..."being one of his first guys...", and so on. And the book is sorely missing the input of several of the dinosaurs still living, and certainly the 2nd gens who took over managing the lines of dinosaurs who have passed on before & after Mr. Parkers passing. There is a lot of good kenpo out there not represented in these arguments. Too bad; I bet there's some interesting things to hear.

Regards,

Dave

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Sorry, I'm not up on all the politics. The school my buddy teaches at is a strain of Castro/Alemany Kenpo, so I was just curious. I just now realized that this is under the EPAK board, so, I hope I don't get flamed.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Mike,
If I were you, I'd listen to Huk. To everyone that says there is more than one way to do a technique, I say you only know 1/3 of what you think you do. Now, before anyone cries foul, read on. If you come from an Iron Worker lineage, there are three ways to do a technique, (yellow excluded) the base way, the extension, and then the equation variations. The problem comes in when people take the base technique they really don't understand, I've touched on levels of knowing before, decide it is flawed and change it. This shows an incredible shallowness of knowledge. I don't care who you are, if your Delayed Sword looks like crap, then I'll tell you, it looks like crap. It doesn't matter if you alter the timing, or regulate the power, crap is crap. That is what far too many people today are doing, crap. They crap on the techniques, they crap on their instructors, and then they crap on their students. So what's the point of my little tirade? If you have not been taught the base technique correctly, then the rest of it is crap and you need to get a refund.

Great post! What I see missing mostly, however, is emphasis on basics. I say, if your basics are crap, it doesn't matter if you understand the base technique, extensions, and variations. As a panel judge, I don't even care if they miss a step in a form or tech. I care that the steps that ARE performed are solid, reflecting a good foundation of sound basics. Crappy blocks, stances, strike mechanics in an otherwise "correct" base technique? See it all the time. I would rather spend the rest of my life doing line drills towards the goal of achieving impeccable basics, than to master extensions built on a house of sand.

But that's my own opinion, and I'm an a-hole...just ask my old lady.

Dave

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Great post! What I see missing mostly, however, is emphasis on basics. I say, if your basics are crap, it doesn't matter if you understand the base technique, extensions, and variations. As a panel judge, I don't even care if they miss a step in a form or tech. I care that the steps that ARE performed are solid, reflecting a good foundation of sound basics. Crappy blocks, stances, strike mechanics in an otherwise "correct" base technique? See it all the time. I would rather spend the rest of my life doing line drills towards the goal of achieving impeccable basics, than to master extensions built on a house of sand.

But that's my own opinion, and I'm an a-hole...just ask my old lady.

Dave

Strong Basics and Strong Principles = Strong Application

The order of movements is largely irrelevant as long as the principles are followed. A lot of the differences in the "ideal" between lines all follow sound logic and principles. The difference is in the sequence which is again dependant on the principles, not vice versa.

Watch someone from the Planas Line (or Planas himself), Tatum Line (or Tatum himself), or Palanzo Line (or Planzo himself) do Thundering Hammers and you'll see three different ideal phases. And all three will be sound. This has been my experience from working with those three lines and seeing each lines GM perform that one move differently.

Heck, I've got too much footage of Parker performing Thundering Hammers and there are some differences in how he did them depending on where he was.

Solid Basics and Solid Principles = Solid Application.

My two cents....and a nickel

 

[HKphooey]

Interesting Question ... I study with Mr. Hogan, who has been a direct student of Mr. Planas for about twenty years or so. Over on KenpoTalk, Jason just said he recognized Mr. Planas' influence on one of my comments, so I take that as a good thing. It means I am learning the material in the way my instructor's instructor teaches it.

I will say this, though. In 2003, Ms Cogliandro hosted the Kenpo internationals in Boston. I attended the Sunday workshops, and got to work with four senior Kenpo people. Each of the four instructors touched on 'Thundering Hammers' in their session. This was not by design or plan. But, it seemed that each of the instructors did something different. Some of which was so 'different' as to be outside of what I understood to be Kenpo at that time.

One of the instructors had us 'floating' on one foot at a time, rather than 'establishing a base', (Rule #1 according to Mr. Planas). It was so far out of what I understood to be Kenpo, I just worked as the 'dummy' for others during that session.

So, I don't know if what Mr. Planas teaches is 'The Correct System'. But, for the moment, he is my instructor's instructor. I have the privilege of taking private lessons with him when he comes to town. I hope I am learning his system correctly. Hopefully, that he served as Mr. Parker's Executive Vice President of the IKKA means that his system, is the system of 'American Kenpo'. But, regardless, if I can only connect it to 'Huk Planas', that's a strong enough connection for me.

As for others, and what they teach, well, maybe in the future, when I have internalized enough from Mr. Hogan and Mr. Planas, I will be able to properly evaluate what and why the others teach and train.

You hit he nail on the head... Go to as many seminars with as many "top kenpo" guys/gals as see all the different flavors. It will enlighten you to what works and what does not. Until you try something, you will never know if it is effective or not. I have gone to many seminars with different instructors and I can honestly say I always learned something new... even if it is just another person's way of looking at something or explaining it.

 

[hemi]

Reading some threads recently on KT and KN, I see debates regarding changing the material, improving things or keeping it the way it is, SL4, motion, commercial, how this person does a technique and why its right/wrong, etc. I even saw one post that was a reply to another member, stating that he was NOT doing American Kenpo!

Mike

Well that is the reason I have not posted over there since. I have a lot of respect for many of the people on that forum but have a hard time with some of the things that were said.

 

[stickarts]

You hit he nail on the head... Go to as many seminars with as many "top kenpo" guys/gals as see all the different flavors. It will enlighten you to what works and what does not. Until you try something, you will never know if it is effective or not. I have gone to many seminars with different instructors and I can honestly say I always learned something new... even if it is just another person's way of looking at something or explaining it.

Absolutely. It is difficult to make progress when one is closed minded.
Most of the greatest learned from many different people and experiences and continually evolved.

 

[gixxershane]

Congratulations, what grade were you testing for??

Marcel

first black