So Let Me Get This Straight-- Why Don't We Have New Arts?

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe this will help.

If you aren't comfortable with hitting someone hard because "you don't like it" then what when you in a situation when you may actually need to hit someone that deserves it. Will you let your that feeling restrain you and put you or your love one in danger? Here's something that I have always been taught.

When sparring and hitting with decent force (not over doing it)
1. You learn how to better control and drive your power.
2. You harden and condition your sparring partner's body. Which makes them less afraid to be hit hard.
3. You create realistic tactics and fighting theories, because you don't take unnecessary chances with things you aren't good at or things that you are not able to.
4. You learn to control your emotion where fighting isn't about " what you don't like to do" "It's about what you have to do". It's not about "hurting someone else" it's about "protecting yourself".
5. You learn to control your emotion, your frustration, and your fear of being hit. You learn to hold it together when fear or uneasiness is just an uncontrolled thought away.
6. You learn to focus on the tasks that need to be done, instead of focusing on what you may or may not do to a "future enemy.

I had a student who was afraid to hit me hard. I would scolded her for not doing so. She wanted to be able to fight using kung fu. But not being able to hit someone hard is what prevented her from be able to learn how to fight.

When we do leg conditioning. People get hurt.
When I block a beginner with my forearm, even when it's a soft block. That person gets hurt.
When we do forearm conditioning. People get hurt.

There's a different between being hurt as part of training and hurting people out of pain or out of being a jerk. It's just part of the reality of what the training is.

Not trying to change your mind. Just putting another perspective out there. Force doesn't always mean 100% and hitting someone as hard as you can.

As I said, I do train with hard sparring at times. But I don't like it. I don't think I ever will. When "in a fight", I've never found myself unduly held back by concern for the other person. But I didn't enjoy it then, either. There's a huge gulf between trepidation and enjoyment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One of my guys want to learn Sanda, I start to teach him how to run his opponent down. When you try to run your opponent down, you just cannot use light contact. With proper head gear and chest protection, full contact can still be achieve safely.

There's good evidence that headgear doesn't dramatically reduce the chance of CTE. In fact, if it leads to people not protecting themselves as well (which has been the case in American football, for instance), it can lead to increased chances of CTE.

 

[Hanzou]

It's so funny that sometime an art can be changed from

combat -> sport -> combat

One person may try to take some dangerous moves out and make a combat art into sport. Another person may try to add those missing parts back into sport and make a sport into combat art.

The day when we will see BJJ guys start to train knife fight, the day that the history will repeat again.

Considering that someone can be killed from a Judo throw, or a punch from a boxer, (and the majority of high level practitioners of those "sports" are quite capable of performing their techniques via their type of training) I don't think labeling a martial art in those ways really matters. I know plenty of "combat" MAs that are complete and utter jokes on just about every level. I know plenty of "sport" MA practitioners I would never mess with unless I want to be carried out of the gym, or sent to the hospital.

 

[Steve]

You've told me on multiple occasions that competition is application, but sparring outside competition is training. Or I've entirely misunderstood what seemed very clear posts.

Nope. That's true. Well, it's a little more nuanced than that. I'll try to distill it into bullet points:

• Expertise is an accumulation of skills developed over time thought application in context.
• Whenever you use skills in a different context, your chances of failure are higher, because there is a transfer of learning. For example, if you learn to swim in a pool, and then swim in the ocean, there is a transfer of learning. If you're a strong swimmer, you will probably do fine, though there are important things about tides that you may not know. If you are a weak swimmer in a pool, you will be an even weaker swimmer in an ocean. And if you've only ever mimicked the motions of swimming while on dry land, your chances are pretty slim, though you may intellectually understand what you need to do.
• The more similar one context is to another, the more likely one will successfully transfer skills.
• Training to fight is not the same as fighting. Fighting is an application of skill. Training is preparation. You can develop expertise without training (though good training is valuable). You cannot develop expertise without application.
• If you don't apply the skills you're learning in the context for which they are intended, the training itself actually becomes the context. If this happens, you are no longer even training to fight. You are now training to become an expert trainee. So, to your points, @gpseymour , this is a form of application. It's just not fighting application anymore.
• When this happens, the objectives for the training shift from fighting skill to training skill. In other words, you stop training to be able to fight. You start training to be able to chi sao, or experience true aiki, or perfect a kata, etc. You start training to become skilled at training. Any expertise you develop is within the context of training.
• To the point of this thread, if all you do is train in a system and your expertise is in that system, the best case scenario is that you will refine the system based on training goals. Simply put, you may chi sao better, or you may perform kata better. You might be able to turn that 180 degree kick into a super cool 360 tornado kick. Will you be able to fight, though? No clue. You're not even on the spectrum of fighting skill. More like fighting adjacent.
• And most importantly, if you don't apply the skills and develop actual expertise in a context, you shouldn't be teaching anything related to that context. Or said in a positive way, you should teach what you know. If you know a system, teach the system.

 

[Hanzou]

When my brother was in his 20's he got into a fight at a club. Guess what he used, in the fight? Wrestling. Guess what he trained in highschool. Wrestling.. So in my mind.
When boxers get into street fights they use boxing.
When BJJ practitioners get into street fights they use BJJ
When Wrestlers get into street fights they use Wrestling.
When Kung fu Guys into street fights they "bail out" and do nothing that they actually train. For me that that's a big issue. How I train is the way I should fight. If my training isn't good enough for fighting then I shouldn't train that with the expectation that it's good for fighting.
If I get into a street fight the you'll see some of the same things that I've already shown on video. There won't be any bailing out of my techniques.

My comments are based on how I train. My biggest focus is to be a good representation of Jow Ga Kung Fu in that it's something that can actually be used. So my training is going to be different than someone who doesn't train to use kung fu for actual fighting.

Can someone pull out a gun or knife in a fight? Of course. But I can do the same if I have one on me. I'll use what I train. If I don't have a weapon then I will still use what I train.

I think a big reason why you tend to use your Kung Fu in actual fights is because you appear to be sparring a lot. There are a lot of Kung Fu schools out there that don't spar at all, and rely almost entirely on forms and one step drills. Despite people's fondness for forms/kata, people doing nothing but that form of training simply don't develop their fighting ability, and end up having a lot of techniques with almost zero knowledge on how to apply them.

Weren't you kicked out of your original school because of your sparring?

 

[lklawson]

The day when we will see BJJ guys start to train knife fight, the day that the history will repeat again.

Individual BJJ practitioners cross-train all the time, including one of the many knife systems. They add it to their personal "styles" and teach it to their students.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

• Whenever you use skills in a different context, your chances of failure are higher, because there is a transfer of learning. For example, if you learn to swim in a pool, and then swim in the ocean, there is a transfer of learning. If you're a strong swimmer, you will probably do fine, though there are important things about tides that you may not know. If you are a weak swimmer in a pool, you will be an even weaker swimmer in an ocean. And if you've only ever mimicked the motions of swimming while on dry land, your chances are pretty slim, though you may intellectually understand what you need to do.

It occurred to me, @gpseymour , that within this bullet we might find the source of confusion. in the statement above, fighting is analogous to swimming. If a chaotic, random street fight is the ocean, I would consider competition to be swimming in a pool. I think you believe you're swimming. But if you aren't actually swimming, you're the guy on the side of the pool.

A person who is mimicking the motions of swimming, but doesn't swim, is developing some muscle memory. These motions may actually be useful for swimming (or not, but it's possible). But it's not swimming. No one would look at a person doing swimming motions on dry land and say that he is swimming, even if his form is impeccable.

If you do get into a pool and try to swim, I wouldn't expect it to go very well. But even if you do that only one time, it's going to be a big deal. You are going to get a tremendous amount of feedback that will inform your training. To continue to progress, however, you need to continue to get into the pool. Even if you only get into the pool occasionally, it will keep your training grounded in performance and your skills will grow (albeit slowly).

If you never get into the pool, then you have supplanted the goal of swimming. You are now into something else... a sort of performance art where perfection of dry-land swimming is the goal. And if that's what you're into, then by all means, have at it. Just be mindful that when you first get into the pool, it's going to be a big deal, and it's not likely to go very well. And remember, the pool isn't the goal. The ocean is the goal. If you aren't prepared to jump into the pool, you really shouldn't jump off the boat in the pacific out of sight of the shore.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Individual BJJ practitioners cross-train all the time, including one of the many knife systems. They add it to their personal "styles" and teach it to their students.

This is why I don't understand why people want to argue about the following.

- Does Karate have sweep?
- Does Judo have punch?
- Does boxing have kick?
- Does TKD have throw?
- Does BJJ have knife fight?
- ...

Who cares? If you cross train, this will never be an issue.

 

[lklawson]

- Does boxing have kick?

Welllll.....

The Knee-Kick in boxing by lklawson
The Knee-Kick from Bart J. Doran's boxing manual "The Science of Self Defense," 1889
Available for free here:
Lulu

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Hanzou]

This is why I don't understand why people want to argue about the following.

- Does Karate have sweep?
- Does Judo have punch?
- Does boxing have kick?
- Does TKD have throw?
- Does BJJ have knife fight?
- ...

Who cares? If you cross train, this will never be an issue.

Uh, one of those is not like the other ones.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You've told me on multiple occasions that competition is application, but sparring outside competition is training. Or I've entirely misunderstood what seemed very clear posts.

Nope. That's true. Well, it's a little more nuanced than that. I'll try to distill it into bullet points:

• Expertise is an accumulation of skills developed over time thought application in context.
• Whenever you use skills in a different context, your chances of failure are higher, because there is a transfer of learning. For example, if you learn to swim in a pool, and then swim in the ocean, there is a transfer of learning. If you're a strong swimmer, you will probably do fine, though there are important things about tides that you may not know. If you are a weak swimmer in a pool, you will be an even weaker swimmer in an ocean. And if you've only ever mimicked the motions of swimming while on dry land, your chances are pretty slim, though you may intellectually understand what you need to do.
• The more similar one context is to another, the more likely one will successfully transfer skills.
• Training to fight is not the same as fighting. Fighting is an application of skill. Training is preparation. You can develop expertise without training (though good training is valuable). You cannot develop expertise without application.
• If you don't apply the skills you're learning in the context for which they are intended, the training itself actually becomes the context. If this happens, you are no longer even training to fight. You are now training to become an expert trainee. So, to your points, @gpseymour , this is a form of application. It's just not fighting application anymore.
• When this happens, the objectives for the training shift from fighting skill to training skill. In other words, you stop training to be able to fight. You start training to be able to chi sao, or experience true aiki, or perfect a kata, etc. You start training to become skilled at training. Any expertise you develop is within the context of training.
• To the point of this thread, if all you do is train in a system and your expertise is in that system, the best case scenario is that you will refine the system based on training goals. Simply put, you may chi sao better, or you may perform kata better. You might be able to turn that 180 degree kick into a super cool 360 tornado kick. Will you be able to fight, though? No clue. You're not even on the spectrum of fighting skill. More like fighting adjacent.
• And most importantly, if you don't apply the skills and develop actual expertise in a context, you shouldn't be teaching anything related to that context. Or said in a positive way, you should teach what you know. If you know a system, teach the system.

Steve, I think Gerry would agree with most of your points, but your response bypassed the point he was trying to make in his comment that I've quoted above.

Namely, if you spar in the dojo (under a certain set of rules) and spar in a competition of some sort (tournament, cage fight, whatever) under those same exact rules, why would the former be considered training and only the latter be considered application?

I have my own answers for why someone might consider that to be the case.

• Many of us primarily spar "to learn" rather than "to win" in the dojo, while most people bring their "A game" to win in a formal competition.
• Adrenaline tends to be higher in an official competition with trophies or prize money on the line then in routine sparring in the dojo
• Tournament competition may provide the opportunity to test yourself against people other than your classmates
• If your goal is a winning athletic career, then official competition may involve "metagaming" factors beyond the official sparring rounds - things like scouting an opponent, knowing what the judges are looking for, cutting weight, etc

However, I'd still say that the distinction is a bit of a fuzzy boundary. Even those of us who spar "to learn" have plenty of experience with sparring partners who go balls-to-the-wall putting maximum effort into winning. And for those of us who train for generalized fighting ability, the metagame of a particular competition ruleset may not be so vital.

To use your own analogy, sparring in the dojo might be like swimming in an indoor pool while competing or fighting in the street might be like swimming in the ocean with the possibility of bad weather or riptides.

I do acknowledge your larger general point. That's why I don't claim that I am any kind of expert master in "street fighting" or "self-defense." On the other hand, I don't necessarily limit myself to saying "I teach the cultural heritage art of BJJ." What I do claim is that I have a reasonable degree of expertise in executing and teaching certain specific skills which may be useful in a variety of contexts. Things like:

• Escaping from the bottom of mount when someone is on top of me trying to choke me
• Getting back to my feet safely if I am on the ground and someone is standing over me trying to hit me
• Taking someone to the ground against their will when they are trying to hit me
• Punching someone with a reasonable degree of force while protecting myself from them doing the same to me
• Hitting someone with a stick while protecting myself from them doing the same to me
• Preventing someone from throwing me to the ground when they are really trying to do so
• Falling safely without being hurt when I fail at stopping someone from throwing me to the ground
• Choking someone unconscious when they are trying to not let me do that
• etc, etc, etc

Could those skills be useful in a self-defense situation? Sometimes, depending on the context.
Could those skills be useful in a fight? Sometimes, depending on the fight.
Could those skills be useful in a sporting competition? Sometimes, depending on the competition.

I don't claim to be any kind of great fighter or great competitor or self-defense guru, but the specific skills I teach I feel pretty confident in.

 

[Steve]

Steve, I think Gerry would agree with most of your points, but your response bypassed the point he was trying to make in his comment that I've quoted above.

Namely, if you spar in the dojo (under a certain set of rules) and spar in a competition of some sort (tournament, cage fight, whatever) under those same exact rules, why would the former be considered training and only the latter be considered application?

I have my own answers for why someone might consider that to be the case.

• Many of us primarily spar "to learn" rather than "to win" in the dojo, while most people bring their "A game" to win in a formal competition.
• Adrenaline tends to be higher in an official competition with trophies or prize money on the line then in routine sparring in the dojo
• Tournament competition may provide the opportunity to test yourself against people other than your classmates
• If your goal is a winning athletic career, then official competition may involve "metagaming" factors beyond the official sparring rounds - things like scouting an opponent, knowing what the judges are looking for, cutting weight, etc

However, I'd still say that the distinction is a bit of a fuzzy boundary. Even those of us who spar "to learn" have plenty of experience with sparring partners who go balls-to-the-wall putting maximum effort into winning. And for those of us who train for generalized fighting ability, the metagame of a particular competition ruleset may not be so vital.

To use your own analogy, sparring in the dojo might be like swimming in an indoor pool while competing or fighting in the street might be like swimming in the ocean with the possibility of bad weather or riptides.

I do acknowledge your larger general point. That's why I don't claim that I am any kind of expert master in "street fighting" or "self-defense." On the other hand, I don't necessarily limit myself to saying "I teach the cultural heritage art of BJJ." What I do claim is that I have a reasonable degree of expertise in executing and teaching certain specific skills which may be useful in a variety of contexts. Things like:

• Escaping from the bottom of mount when someone is on top of me trying to choke me
• Getting back to my feet safely if I am on the ground and someone is standing over me trying to hit me
• Taking someone to the ground against their will when they are trying to hit me
• Punching someone with a reasonable degree of force while protecting myself from them doing the same to me
• Hitting someone with a stick while protecting myself from them doing the same to me
• Preventing someone from throwing me to the ground when they are really trying to do so
• Falling safely without being hurt when I fail at stopping someone from throwing me to the ground
• Choking someone unconscious when they are trying to not let me do that
• etc, etc, etc

Could those skills be useful in a self-defense situation? Sometimes, depending on the context.
Could those skills be useful in a fight? Sometimes, depending on the fight.
Could those skills be useful in a sporting competition? Sometimes, depending on the competition.

I don't claim to be any kind of great fighter or great competitor or self-defense guru, but the specific skills I teach I feel pretty confident in.

You make many good points. I think it goes a little off the tracks when you say "spar in a competition." For many of the reasons you outline, they aren't the same. Much more accurate to say you spar in training and you compete in a competition.

And to be completely honest, while I think this is very important, I agree that it's nuanced (i.e., fuzzy). Is it possible for someone to learn to swim without ever touching the water? I honestly don't know the answer to that for a few reasons. First, because the person hasn't done it. Second, because we have a reliable way to teach people to swim, though it relies on being in water.

I think you hit some of the clear differences between training to fight vs fighting. Or training to compete vs competing (or basic training vs combat, etc). But you asked a good question. If I change the language just a little bit, I think it becomes more clear. Still nuanced, but I think a little more concrete:

If you fight in a dojo under a certain set of rules, or fight in a competition under those same exact rules, why would the former be considered training and only the latter be considered application?

The answer is, it depends. But the rules are only part of the context. You touch on other elements in your post above. When you fight in the dojo, is this fight the culmination of training specific for that event? Is there a tangible reward for success and also a tangible consequence for failure? Is one fight part of a larger series of fights (i.e., if you win, do you advance to fight someone else?). So, to answer the question, I can envision a school saying, "Six weeks from now, in lieu of classes, I have invited our satellite schools to join us for the rumblepalooza. We will be using submission only rules. Top three in each division will receive a tangible reward, TBD, and anyone not in the top three will be made to spar consecutive 3 minute rounds with the 20 other people in the school, starting with the blackbelts and going down to white belts.

Simply put, with a lot of thought and effort, you can get close. But this raises two questions. First, is something like the above what people have in mind when they say "sparring is application?" I don't get that impression. And second, even in the above situation, is this analogous to competition or simply a lesser alternative to competition? Maybe a better way to say it is, even if you do participate in the above (which actually could be pretty fun), does it fully replace the value of competing in an event outside the school with other people/schools?

Whew. If you're still with me, my hat is off to you. To sum up, it's common sense that you can't learn to swim without swimming. But that's not exactly the question you're asking. What you seem to be asking is, can you learn to swim without water? And the answer is... maybe? If you're determined enough to learn to swim, and creative enough to replace water with something that can get you close (a 10'x10'x10' vat of canola oil? Vodka?), you might learn something like swimming that, if you find yourself in an actual pool, will keep you from drowning.

What I think is more likely, though is that if you don't train in water to begin with, swimming in a pool or anywhere else isn't your actual goal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

spar "to learn" rather than "to win" ...

This is why you should force yourself to use just a set of techniques (or even just a single technique) in sparring. You won't obtain winning if you use a technique outside of that pre-defined set.

 

[Steve]

I do acknowledge your larger general point. That's why I don't claim that I am any kind of expert master in "street fighting" or "self-defense." On the other hand, I don't necessarily limit myself to saying "I teach the cultural heritage art of BJJ." What I do claim is that I have a reasonable degree of expertise in executing and teaching certain specific skills which may be useful in a variety of contexts.

[SNIP]

I don't claim to be any kind of great fighter or great competitor or self-defense guru, but the specific skills I teach I feel pretty confident in.

Just want to pull these two statements out. I hope you don't think I have any issues at all with them. You focus on what you do and don't imply you know things you don't, and I don't see any reason why you would or should need to limit yourself to saying you teach the cultural heritage of BJJ.

Not thinking about Gerry, but we have others on this forum who do in fact present themselves to be self defense experts, including at least one mentor, in spite of having no relevant experience. It's not the lack of experience alone, because, really, who cares? It's that, at least in the particular case of this particular ninja, we have a guy who suggests expertise where none exists and implies experience he doesn't have. It's dishonest. But he sure does know a lot about samurai swords, so....

In fact, many years ago, it was this person that created the need to distinguish between application and training, and to articulate things that seem obvious, like you need experience to be an expert. And to say seemingly obvious things like, "You can be an expert ninja without fighting. But that doesn't make you an expert fighter."

 

[JowGaWolf]

Weren't you kicked out of your original school because of your sparring?

Yeah that was me.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah that was me.

Yeah, that’s like kicking someone out of driver’s ed for driving.

 

[Steve]

Yeah that was me.

I didn't know that. You're like a modern day Bruce Lee. Pretty badass.

 

[Hanzou]

This is why you should force yourself to use just a set of techniques (or even just a single technique) in sparring. You won't obtain winning if you use a technique outside of that pre-defined set.

You don’t really need to force yourself. When I first started rolling, I only had two or three moves I could somewhat do against someone who was trying to subdue me. Over time your move set grows, and you add more to your tool belt. It’s a fairly natural progression over time.

The bad part is if you’ve never sparred before and the first time you can test your abilities is when you have to defend yourself.

 

[Rusty B]

I don’t think most new MA consumers have the knowledge to make those determinations.

Most people have heard of karate, kung fu, krav maga, judo, muay thai, jiu jitsu, taekwondo, etc.

I would think that when most people hear some funky new name they never heard of, then spidey senses go off.

Absent some internet research - probably the kind that would require some prior MA knowledge in the first place - I'd think kudo, for example, would be a hard sell too many.

It's a cross between karate and judo? It kind of reminds me of that episode of Sanford & Son where, when asked what type of stone what's on a cheap ring he had, Fred said that it was a "doobie" - which is a cross between a diamond and a ruby. I believe that it's probably how kudo and other similar concoctions are perceived by those with no prior martial arts experience.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I didn't know that. You're like a modern day Bruce Lee. Pretty badass.

Yep. It happened a few years ago. Not a good experience but I came out better and stronger for it. Long story short, and it's a really good story, My tiny reputation was not tarnished, the truth came out, and I didn't let the experience kill my passion for Jow Ga.

If anything. I'm more focused than ever.