SLT/SNT

[Transk53]

Don't take it literally...it's just a common expression regarding the "journey."
It is a progression, a continuum.

No worries

 

[Transk53]

Metaphorically.
Once you truly know and understand the form. You do not fight with the form. Form is for learning.

Right so in my limited field of vision, you fight with the technique derived from the form?

 

[Danny T]

Right so in my limited field of vision, you fight with the technique derived from the form?

One must learn to respond with what is received. Form is for learning - Form. Positions, structure, movements, stance, etc. Drills are for learning to use the positions, structure, movements, timing, range, feel, pressure, center of gravity changes,...etc.
Application is survival, fighting using what has been ingrained and entrained but a many not look like the drills or form presented.

 

[Transk53]

One must learn to respond with what is received. Form is for learning - Form. Positions, structure, movements, stance, etc. Drills are for learning to use the positions, structure, movements, timing, range, feel, pressure, center of gravity changes,...etc.
Application is survival, fighting using what has been ingrained and entrained but a many not look like the drills or form presented.

Sweet. Yeah I like that. I'll make sure I will write that down.

 

[jhexx]

One must learn to respond with what is received. Form is for learning - Form. Positions, structure, movements, stance, etc. Drills are for learning to use the positions, structure, movements, timing, range, feel, pressure, center of gravity changes,...etc.
Application is survival, fighting using what has been ingrained and entrained but a many not look like the drills or form presented.

Best way to break it down 1+

 

[Jake104]

One must learn to respond with what is received. Form is for learning - Form. Positions, structure, movements, stance, etc. Drills are for learning to use the positions, structure, movements, timing, range, feel, pressure, center of gravity changes,...etc.
Application is survival, fighting using what has been ingrained and entrained but a many not look like the drills or form presented.

Dang you're good!

 

[Danny T]

Dang you're good!

Well that got me laughing.
Can I get you to state that again for my wife? 'Hey Jacquie; come see this'.

 

[Eric_H]

One must learn to respond with what is received. Form is for learning - Form. Positions, structure, movements, stance, etc. Drills are for learning to use the positions, structure, movements, timing, range, feel, pressure, center of gravity changes,...etc.
Application is survival, fighting using what has been ingrained and entrained but a many not look like the drills or form presented.

One might argue "then what is the point of forms at all?" As all the attributes you list under form training can indeed be taught in a 2-man format.

For a long while I was concerned largely with application, and planned to teach Wing Chun with as little form training as possible, more similar to what GM Leung Jan did in Gulo village. As I've gotten older and had more training time with my Sifu, I understand things a bit differently now - the little idea is that of "focus" or more specifically, focus on what things matter. For my lineage, we focus on how to measure time and space with our tools/theories available. And in counter to my original question, I'd say that in 2-man drilling we are often listening to the other person, it's form training that gives us the chance to listen to ourselves. Would you concur?

Also, I'd argue that things should by and large resemble the form under a perfect situation (working against someone of the same physical qualities) but obviously they change as the dimensions of your opponent change ie: can't use a high taan sao at head level if I'm 6'3 and my opponent is 5'5.

 

[Danny T]

One might argue "then what is the point of forms at all?" As all the attributes you list under form training can indeed be taught in a 2-man format.

For a long while I was concerned largely with application, and planned to teach Wing Chun with as little form training as possible, more similar to what GM Leung Jan did in Gulo village. As I've gotten older and had more training time with my Sifu, I understand things a bit differently now - the little idea is that of "focus" or more specifically, focus on what things matter. For my lineage, we focus on how to measure time and space with our tools/theories available. And in counter to my original question, I'd say that in 2-man drilling we are often listening to the other person, it's form training that gives us the chance to listen to ourselves. Would you concur?

Also, I'd argue that things should by and large resemble the form under a perfect situation (working against someone of the same physical qualities) but obviously they change as the dimensions of your opponent change ie: can't use a high taan sao at head level if I'm 6'3 and my opponent is 5'5.

Don’t always have a training partner. Soooo, Form training is an excellent way to work ones fundamentals. There are several ‘extras’ to learning and practicing forms. Repetition, Repetition, Repetition. Mental discipline, mental relaxation, and yes learning to listen to one’s self. Feeling how breathing changes the center of gravity, how to feel the tension in the body and to release it. These things I feel are a part of one’s form and structure. It is an internal aspect of our form and not something that is seen.

When you present the structure of tan sao and then use it in a drill designed to develop the proper response for when to utilize the tan sao verses a different structure. In actual application the structure of tan may very well be utilized against an opponent’s body or maybe the neck vs the forearm as in the drill. I have used a jop sao structure as an arm bar with the opponent’s arm jammed between my neck and the jop sao structure. The application of jop sao in this case is not as in the drill utilized to develop it. To the untrained eye many would not recognize it as a jop. Same can be in many other situations. Lan sao structure is an elbow strike as well as a fence. In form it is not presented as a elbow strike. There many other possibilities for application that is not as developed by drill.

 

[Treznor]

SNT is basically the root of pretty much everything you're going to learn on your journey... Even when you do move on to Chum Kiu and Biu Ji, you can still trace positions and movements back to SNT.

Think of it as the foundations for a building... not something you want to rush through to get to the more 'interesting' bits... If the foundation is shakey, the rest won't be up to much either.

Personally, I'd be wary of using YouTube for learning purposes... at best there's a lot of videos out there that will contradict how your lineage / school teaches the form... at worst there's a lot of people on there showing dodgy techniques and passing them off as being straight from the mouth of Ip Man.

In addition to the above, when you're watching a video, you can't see / feel the energies involved.... In my opinion, the best way to utilise videos is to find something that looks similar (if not the same) to what your school teaches and then use it for prompting purposes only... ie you can't remember which technique is next so check the vid.

Hope all this helps

Mat

 

[Transk53]

SNT is basically the root of pretty much everything you're going to learn on your journey... Even when you do move on to Chum Kiu and Biu Ji, you can still trace positions and movements back to SNT.

Think of it as the foundations for a building... not something you want to rush through to get to the more 'interesting' bits... If the foundation is shakey, the rest won't be up to much either.

Yeah, that part I do see without actually looking. Basically from the brief stint first time around.

Personally, I'd be wary of using YouTube for learning purposes... at best there's a lot of videos out there that will contradict how your lineage / school teaches the form... at worst there's a lot of people on there showing dodgy techniques and passing them off as being straight from the mouth of Ip Man.

Indeed. I pretty much watch Youtube for the comparisons rather than whether the subject matter is wholly correct. I derive from there as to whether something looks legit or a showboating vid.

In addition to the above, when you're watching a video, you can't see / feel the energies involved.... In my opinion, the best way to utilise videos is to find something that looks similar (if not the same) to what your school teaches and then use it for prompting purposes only... ie you can't remember which technique is next so check the vid.

Yeah I agree on that. I am learning in the EWTO organisation. As scandalous as may well sound lol, the Sifu does not get caught up in all the linage and style stuff, he just teaches Wing Chun and views it that way. It also helping that SNT is broken down into sections now. The first time around all students went through the entire movement, but this time it was just arms in position and the downward thrust, reverse the hands and back. I concentrate on that at home and it is easier to remember.

 

[Argus]

SNT is basically the root of pretty much everything you're going to learn on your journey... Even when you do move on to Chum Kiu and Biu Ji, you can still trace positions and movements back to SNT.

Think of it as the foundations for a building... not something you want to rush through to get to the more 'interesting' bits... If the foundation is shakey, the rest won't be up to much either.

Personally, I'd be wary of using YouTube for learning purposes... at best there's a lot of videos out there that will contradict how your lineage / school teaches the form... at worst there's a lot of people on there showing dodgy techniques and passing them off as being straight from the mouth of Ip Man.

In addition to the above, when you're watching a video, you can't see / feel the energies involved.... In my opinion, the best way to utilise videos is to find something that looks similar (if not the same) to what your school teaches and then use it for prompting purposes only... ie you can't remember which technique is next so check the vid.

Hope all this helps

Mat

I think you're discounting videos too much here. While you can easily stumble across Joe Smoe of lineage X teaching nonsense, you can just as easily... you know, type in something like "Ip Ching Sil Lim Tao" or "Wong Shun Leung Siu Nim Tao" or even "Ip Man Sil Lim Tao," and get it all straight from your particular horse's mouth. Just use discernment.

Moreover, I feel that there's a lot you can learn about Wing Chun, it's history, and especially "how to think" by researching various lineages and looking at material from trusted sources. There's an amazing amount of footage even from first-generation students of Yip Man still available, and there are many respectable 2nd generation students with good content as well. Just keep in mind who you're watching, and that if he is outside your lineage, you want to be careful about what you emulate. But, I don't recommend watching videos of other lineages in order to emulate so much as I do in order to get a broad understanding of Wing Chun as a whole, and get your brain churning. Wing Chun by and large does share the same principles, but what's interesting to me is to see how different lineages/individuals do (or don't) apply those principles, or apply them in different ways. Even spotting differences and contradictions can be just as much a way to learn about your system as anything.

And, lastly (though I know this was not something Treznor is warning about), the most useful video you can reference is one of yourself and your Sifu. In my training, I was only able to make it out to my school once or twice a month due to the distance, so I always made the best of it; I tried to stay as long as I could, and cram as many classes and private lessons in there as I could. And my Sifu allowed me to take video of my private lessons. This served to be an extremely valuable training aide. Not only could I keep the content fresh in my memory, but I noticed a lot of small details whenever I rewatched those videos; both details of what my Sifu did, and what I did. I could also observe myself from a third person perspective, and get a clear view of what I did right or wrong. And, most remarkably, because I was there, I can often remember even the feeling of touching hands with my teacher in the moment. This is a really powerful tool, and probably the best way to use video as a training aide.

 

[Vajramusti]

I think you're discounting videos too much here. While you can easily stumble across Joe Smoe of lineage X teaching nonsense, you can just as easily... you know, type in something like "Ip Ching Sil Lim Tao" or "Wong Shun Leung Siu Nim Tao" or even "Ip Man Sil Lim Tao," and get it all straight from your particular horse's mouth. Just use discernment.

Moreover, I feel that there's a lot you can learn about Wing Chun, it's history, and especially "how to think" by researching various lineages and looking at material from trusted sources. There's an amazing amount of footage even from first-generation students of Yip Man still available, and there are many respectable 2nd generation students with good content as well. Just keep in mind who you're watching, and that if he is outside your lineage, you want to be careful about what you emulate. But, I don't recommend watching videos of other lineages in order to emulate so much as I do in order to get a broad understanding of Wing Chun as a whole, and get your brain churning. Wing Chun by and large does share the same principles, but what's interesting to me is to see how different lineages/individuals do (or don't) apply those principles, or apply them in different ways. Even spotting differences and contradictions can be just as much a way to learn about your system as anything.

And, lastly (though I know this was not something Treznor is warning about), the most useful video you can reference is one of yourself and your Sifu. In my training, I was only able to make it out to my school once or twice a month due to the distance, so I always made the best of it; I tried to stay as long as I could, and cram as many classes and private lessons in there as I could. And my Sifu allowed me to take video of my private lessons. This served to be an extremely valuable training aide. Not only could I keep the content fresh in my memory, but I noticed a lot of small details whenever I rewatched those videos; both details of what my Sifu did, and what I did. I could also observe myself from a third person perspective, and get a clear view of what I did right or wrong. And, most remarkably, because I was there, I can often remember even the feeling of touching hands with my teacher in the moment. This is a really powerful tool, and probably the best way to use video as a training
-aide.

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good post

 

[Transk53]

I think you're discounting videos too much here. While you can easily stumble across Joe Smoe of lineage X teaching nonsense, you can just as easily... you know, type in something like "Ip Ching Sil Lim Tao" or "Wong Shun Leung Siu Nim Tao" or even "Ip Man Sil Lim Tao," and get it all straight from your particular horse's mouth. Just use discernment.

On a personal level, and just strictly my viewpoint, I mean no disrespect to the art, but I don't care which linage it is. I am interested in Wing Chun as a whole. As you stated to TREZNOR, I agree with you're Sifu statement. I am also blessed with a few 1st graders. All of which the Sifu has made sure I have had practice with. In fact, they are all that I have practised with. Kind of funny that one of them thought that I have done MMA. I did not press him for the reason why, but that made me feel pretty good. Always nice to feel that you have learnt things over the years, and also that you have learnt things. Anyway so far, so good. I am very pleased with my first bunch of lessons

 

[Argus]

On a personal level, and just strictly my viewpoint, I mean no disrespect to the art, but I don't care which linage it is.

That's always been my sentiment as well. If I could, I would love to train in several different lineages. There's plenty of things I like about my lineage, but also things that I don't like so much, and the same is true for other lineages. I feel that no one teacher is perfect or correct in everything they do; they have their strong points as well as aspects that they may not value or train as much as other teachers/lineages.

I've had my fair share of frustration feeling limited by the lineage that I study, but at the same time, you have to accept the fact that your teacher can only teach you what he knows; and he knows what he has been taught in his lineage. So, to make the best of your training and get the most out of your Sifu's instruction, you have to cater to his lineage and take that mold. Once you've got a really solid base, then you can probably explore the art more and make it your own. But, I'm not there yet, so I can't really talk about that.

All that said, I think my Wing Chun has been influenced by my own personal understanding and experiences, and is subtly different from what my teacher, or classmates do, even at my level. The same is true for anyone, I'm sure.

 

[Transk53]

That's always been my sentiment as well. If I could, I would love to train in several different lineages. There's plenty of things I like about my lineage, but also things that I don't like so much, and the same is true for other lineages. I feel that no one teacher is perfect or correct in everything they do; they have their strong points as well as aspects that they may not value or train as much as other teachers/lineages.

I've had my fair share of frustration feeling limited by the lineage that I study, but at the same time, you have to accept the fact that your teacher can only teach you what he knows; and he knows what he has been taught in his lineage. So, to make the best of your training and get the most out of your Sifu's instruction, you have to cater to his lineage and take that mold. Once you've got a really solid base, then you can probably explore the art more and make it your own. But, I'm not there yet, so I can't really talk about that.

All that said, I think my Wing Chun has been influenced by my own personal understanding and experiences, and is subtly different from what my teacher, or classmates do, even at my level. The same is true for anyone, I'm sure.

This is a great reply Argus +1

Yes I agree with you on this. However, one little quirk that I have to live with is a woeful attention span, hence why I choose to adopt my viewpoint. I tend to get quite bored reading up martial arts history, guess I just think of the end product too much. I believe the EWTO follow the Yip Man linage, but to be honest, I don't appreciate what that really means, I can feel that little thought that whispers history and the mark that something biblical started in Foshan, but maybe in time I will grasp the fundamental truth of whichever linage. For now though, that just clutters my mind. Simple at the moment, it is way much more fun feeling the way

 

[jhexx]

Being a person who has studied three versions of wc I totally agree that if you take time to learn why there are differences in application, it can only add to your knowledge and make you more versatile. For example, gum sau in application done in the form is the same but the way Wang kiu lineage does it in SLT versus jiu wan , when the WK version of gum sau was shown to me , it lit my brain on fire because it gave me a way to use it as a low end block using the inner flesh of my forearm to drive the traveling fist away from the groin, while shifting slightly to divert the arm' momentum away from my body. It was a feeling of "ah cool, more ways to use the gum sao, cool! " state of mind. I think never limit what you can add and make into your own unique expression of WC.

 

[Danny T]

Being a person who has studied three versions of wc I totally agree that if you take time to learn why there are differences in application, it can only add to your knowledge and make you more versatile. For example, gum sau in application done in the form is the same but the way Wang kiu lineage does it in SLT versus jiu wan , when the WK version of gum sau was shown to me , it lit my brain on fire because it gave me a way to use it as a low end block using the inner flesh of my forearm to drive the traveling fist away from the groin, while shifting slightly to divert the arm' momentum away from my body. It was a feeling of "ah cool, more ways to use the gum sao, cool! " state of mind. I think never limit what you can add and make into your own unique expression of WC.

Form and application is not the same. There are a lot of application potentials within all of the movements/postures of form.
Applications shown within learning form is but limited examples for one to understand potential. It is up to the practitioner to play, experiment, test, and glean their own ways.