Slashing with knives vs stabbing

[MJS]

Please translate 'Itto Ogami Ryu'.

Cthulhu

A BS art that the lonepuppy teaches that he thinks is worlds above what everyone else does, when in reality its nothing but a fake..just like Mr. Ed!!

Mike

 

[shesulsa]

I think both thrusting and slashing have their place, depending upon what you need to do and where you need to strike.

Now, the war vets I know who have been in many knife fights, tell me that when stabbed, the body holds on to the knife and it doesn't pull out easily, even when sharp. This, apparently, is a good thing because it keeps the bleeding down to a minimum and shock from setting in right away. However, when sliced, shock set in almost immediately and bleeding was profuse.

I have never been in a knife fight, but I have stabbed my hand with a paring knife and sliced my finger open with a sword (small, humble, stupid wounds - nothing compared to knife fighting of course) and I must say that small, tiny sword slice put me on my back in shock when the 2" stab into my hand did not.

I'm sure stabbing a vital organ would have a different impact, though...I think the liver is a wound, the intestines are often fatal, mostly because of secondary infection...heart of course would/could be fatal as well as a lung (again, mostly from secondary infection). Stomach can usually be repaired.

Interesting thread, guys - let's keep it going!

 

[Cruentus]

Both slashes and stabs can kill, but stabs (especially if executed with precision) will kill more readily then slashes, and more instantly. The guy will need time to bleed out with a slash, but with a stab you can take his life instantly. Slashes can sever nerves and tendons, though, and can stop an attacker just as easily as a stab, depending on the situation.

They both have their place, just know the strengths and limitations of each.

Here is a link to another forum I came accross with photo's. This guy was sliced up with a knife, but lived. If you noticed he was mostly slashed, and not stabbed (except in the hand).

Warning, Very graphic photo's: http://strategosforum.com/phpBBx/viewtopic.php?t=4148

 

[Cthulhu]

My lineage is along the Yama Bushi lineage. But I will not say why or where or whom.

I think you mean yamabushi, which was a mountain priest or some type of Buddhist monk...neither of which are known for any recognized jujutsu ryuha.

And it's fairly evident that you also mean 'CANNOT say why or where or whom'.

It's a simple matter to provide the name of the ryuha in which you claim menkyo.

Cthulhu

 

[loki09789]

I think the fact that the discussion has taken a tangent into weapons/application because of design the validity of both slash and stab motions have been proven...depends on the tool and the need.

I notice no answer or comment on the credence of practicing arcing vs. thrusting empty hand techniques by the author. They both have a place and a time. Since I am currently practicing to be a single self defense artist, the practices of Roman Legionaires w/ the Gladius (which was a back up weapon to the spear - reach out and touch someone) are entertaining but not very relative to what I need since I don't move in tight formation with mass units....

Besides which, what kind of 'slashing' are you referring to when you use the term? People who study bladed weapons and knives specifically understand that even within 'slash' there are sublteties of the cut that have to be considered.

I would agree that the clearing back and forth or the swiping desperation cuts that people use to keep opponents at a distance or to put the Bad guy on the defense as he or she closes aren't effective by themselves.

The best test would be to give your training partner a live blade - the average kitchen steak knife for example - and if you are so SURE that slashes are a waste of time you will not even defend worry about them as you attempt to respond to the purely slashing attack. You will ignore them, take the damage and drive through to dispatch your attacker......

After 20 years of martial arts/military training, I will tell you I KNOW I will not ignore such an attack...

 

[Bester]

Mr. Ed will not reply to your questions. He will instead resort to the last resort of the fraud caught in his own lies and deceits.

Continued misdirection followed by the escape.

Someone should monitor his so called school and inform the local BBB, health department and law enforcement folks to check him out.

 

[MJS]

My lineage is along the Yama Bushi lineage. But I will not say why or where or whom.

Why not???? What do you have to hide???

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Why not???? What do you have to hide???

Mike

Everything that would show that his background is not legit.

 

[arnisador]

I'm sure stabbing a vital organ would have a different impact, though...I think the liver is a wound, the intestines are often fatal, mostly because of secondary infection...heart of course would/could be fatal as well as a lung (again, mostly from secondary infection). Stomach can usually be repaired.

The liver is a dangerous target because it is so heavily vascularized--the odds of causing serious bleeding are high. Anything in the abdomen is a definite danger for infection, but the big danger is hitting the aorta.

 

[OUMoose]

I will echo alot of the sentiment here in that it depends on the situation. Both slashes and stabs have their uses, many times in the same technique. Someone had pointed out that muscles will contract on a stab, so you have to twist and cut out. sooooo, Wouldn't that be a slash too? From a FMA/Self-defense perspective, I would slash before stab, for the simple fact that stabbing does result in more immediate physical trauma. In a confrontation, a slash to the inner arm or hands is a good deterrent. If that doesn't discourage further attacks, a slice above the eyes or taking out something like the achillies' (sp?) tendon will generally end things. If that doesn't, then something more serious and... invasive.. is needed.

also, to throw my hat in the off-topic ring:
The Gladius was an excellent weapon for stabbing, but look at the weapon from an outsider point of view. Doesn't it kind of resemble 2 Bolo's back to back, and aren't they great slashers due to the concave edge? Also, as someone pointed out, many times it was used after getting skewered by a spear.

 

[shesulsa]

"Clueless. And you know all these war vets who were in KNIFE fights? What war was this?"

This comment came to me with a bad rep point. Honestly...

1. I don't know a TON of war vets on a first name basis (who does except another one?) but I know a few...

2. My teacher (army special forces, Korean war), a classmate (navy seal, Vietnam), uncles (pearl harbor vet, d-day vet, army special forces, navy seal, marines, all WWII), in-laws (ex-cia ops, WWII) co-workers (army special forces, navy seals, intelligence ops, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Iraq #1)

3. I think YOU'RE clueless if you think these guys carry knives for no reason other than to shave with, hunt deer with, and trim their bootlaces with.

4. As for the guy who was sliced up in a family argument and survived...I know those cuts - those are from dull, serrated kitchen knives - if they had been a razor-sharp tanto and the attacker had used a open/close technique with his wrist and forearm on the blade, that guy would have easily been dead as the cuts would have been deeper and arteries damaged (ever bled from an artery? I have...it's messy)

5. I have not been in any knife fights - I disarmed one attacker who didn't mean it - hardly a job - so I FREELY ADMIT THAT ANY ASSUMPTION I MAKE CAN ONLY BE CONJECTURE BASED ON THE EXPERIENCES OF THOSE AROUND ME.

That said...Hwarang! :asian:

 

[KenpoTess]

The originator of this thread is no longer a member of Martial Talk.

~Tess

-MT S. Moderator-

 

[Cruentus]

As for the guy who was sliced up in a family argument and survived...I know those cuts - those are from dull, serrated kitchen knives - if they had been a razor-sharp tanto and the attacker had used a open/close technique with his wrist and forearm on the blade, that guy would have easily been dead as the cuts would have been deeper and arteries damaged (ever bled from an artery? I have...it's messy)

Well, I'd say that "those cuts" may have had more to do with the attacker not being trained rather then the tool. Statistically, more people die from stab wounds then slash wounds. This is just the fact. I am not by any means asserting that slices are not effective; I am just saying that one should know the strengths and limitations to what they are doing.

Now, I hate to put you on the spot, but so far you've claimed to have had your artery cut, and that you have disarmed someone with a knife. Dare I ask, what circumstances have you been in for these to occur?

 

[MJS]

Well, now that the loneone is gone.. :cheers: ...maybe we can change the direction of this thread ever so slightly. I think that we've pretty much covered the pros/cons of the stab and slash. I think it'd be interesting to talk about the best ways to defend each. We've seen photos of a knife attack and it goes to show that a knife, even in the hands of an untrained person, can have some very serious results.

One thing that I'd like to ask is that we all try to keep ourselves in check, and keep the flames down to a low burn. IMO, knife defense is something that should be looked at.

Ok..I'll start. IMO, when faced with a blade, using something other than your hands to defend yourself would be a better option. Picking up a stick, chair, ashtray, belt, etc. and using that as an equalizer, so to speak, would give you a better chance of surviving. Now, I'm not talking about beating him to death with that object, but instead using it to assist in disarming the knife. Keep in mind the FMA theory of defanging the snake.

Any thoughts??

Mike

 

[shesulsa]

Well, I'd say that "those cuts" may have had more to do with the attacker not being trained rather then the tool. Statistically, more people die from stab wounds then slash wounds. This is just the fact. I am not by any means asserting that slices are not effective; I am just saying that one should know the strengths and limitations to what they are doing.

Now, I hate to put you on the spot, but so far you've claimed to have had your artery cut, and that you have disarmed someone with a knife. Dare I ask, what circumstances have you been in for these to occur?

Excellent points, Tulisan :asian: and I agree. I guess the next question would be when fatal force is necessary and when not and that's a whole other thread for a whole other server.

As for the disarm: My ex (4th degree kenpo at the time) offered me a butcher knife with which to kill him - offered it to me with open hand...of course he didn't mean it...as I drew nearer to him to remove the knife and take it with me, not hurt him, he closed his fist around the handle and began to pull back - I pancaked his hand, turned it over into a joint lock while peeling the knife from his hand.....as I say, he didn't intend me harm, truly, otherwise I would never have disarmed him. Childsplay, really - it doesn't really count, and I know that.

As for the bleeding artery: a glass cake cover broke on the counter near my arm and one large piece of glass slashed deeply into my wrist to the bone, cutting the artery open in a diagonal direction. It bled profusely, I lost consciousness from shock, vomited...and the cut was about three inches across. Now, I've been able to stave off shock before, but doc said it takes a cut of no more than 3 centimeters deep to induce shock - and that usually is about how thick the skin is.

Look, sir, I am just a baby at this and have been able to keep most potential fights to manageable level and I truly can only rely on the experiences of others when it comes to being cut in hand-to-hand combat and I humbly acknowledge this publicly. I care much for my vet friends and family who have seen tight-in knife action and rely heavily upon what they say - thrusting is much more fatal, to be assured...but slicing does have its affect.

Respectfully, She-Sulsa

 

[Cruentus]

Thanks for your response, Shesulsa.

Your cut sounded nasty. In regards to your Ex...glad to hear that he is your ex! Not so sure how wise it was to tell you to take a live butcher knife from his hand. I'm glad you had it under control, but still, accidents can happened.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Well, now that the loneone is gone.. :cheers: ...maybe we can change the direction of this thread ever so slightly. I think that we've pretty much covered the pros/cons of the stab and slash. I think it'd be interesting to talk about the best ways to defend each. We've seen photos of a knife attack and it goes to show that a knife, even in the hands of an untrained person, can have some very serious results.

One thing that I'd like to ask is that we all try to keep ourselves in check, and keep the flames down to a low burn. IMO, knife defense is something that should be looked at.

Ok..I'll start. IMO, when faced with a blade, using something other than your hands to defend yourself would be a better option. Picking up a stick, chair, ashtray, belt, etc. and using that as an equalizer, so to speak, would give you a better chance of surviving. Now, I'm not talking about beating him to death with that object, but instead using it to assist in disarming the knife. Keep in mind the FMA theory of defanging the snake.

Any thoughts??

Mike

I've posted this before, but here are my steps to knife defense:

#1. Run. By far the best option, and prefered if you are able too. You have the best chance of survival if you can run.

#2. Draw your weapon or pick something up. Aim to disable your attacker from using his weapon, shield from his weapon attack, or buy time for option #1.

#2. Do something right away that will disable the knife. An immediate disarm of the knife, an immediate interception and control of the knife hand, or an immediate attack resulting in the attacker being completely immobilized would be an example. The problem with this is you can't screw this up at all; if you do, your chances of being cut to pieces rise dramatically. Furthermore, this requires a committed attack; the less committed and telegraphed, the less likely your chances of pulling this off. And finally, to do this option requires an extreme amount of proficiency on your part.

The biggest problem with this is that no matter how much you have trained, a sharp blade will always cut your flesh on contact, but your technique will not always work on contact. He has a sure thing in his hand, where as your technique is neer a sure thing. This is how the odds are always against you, no matter how trained you are.

#3. Dodge and evade until you can run or grab something to aid you in your defense. This is preferable if you are not trained well, and you can't run. It is also your only option if #2 fails (and you can't run). You can always try #2 again, but remember that your chances of being cut are greater with each failed attempt, and they weren't in your favor to begin with. Problem with this is that once again, the longer your in the situation, the greater your chances of being cut. Furthermore, he can close on you faster then you can retreat just like he can win a running race against you if you run backwards while he runs forwards. Also, action is faster then reaction. Another disadvantage is that if you are able to pick something up, chances are it won't be lethal enough to stop him, thus prolonging the incident and greatening your odds of being cut.

This solution is extremely problamatic, but must be used if it is all that is available to you.

#4 Spaz out, rush in on him, and barade him with attacks while you are trying to control his knife or subdue him. This isn't quite the same as #2. #2 means your first move immediately subdues his ability to cut you; This is more of a rush where you are trying to overwhelm him with attacks. If you are trained, this may be a better option for you then #3, but this one is even more problamatic then the first three options. Even if you are trained well, you have put yourself in a spot where you will either overcome your attacker, or die trying, period. With #2 your attacker is subdued, with #3 you are at least buying yourself time for an escape, or for an object in your hand that will put the odds in your favor. By rushing in with every technique you know to stop him, you have no chance of surviving if you are not successful. Even if you are successful, you will most likely take serious wounds in the process.

This is not recomended, and definatily not as a 1st choice. If you try to run and are unsucessful, you can try options 2-4. If you try option #2, you may be able to try another option if your not dead. If you try #3, you may be able to survive with only non fatal cuts as you buy yourself time to run or subdue. With this option, option 4, failure assures your death. Retreating to another option is not really possible with this choice.

#5. Stand there and let your attacker kill you. This is an option, but it is not a good choice for anyone.

:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

"Clueless. And you know all these war vets who were in KNIFE fights? What war was this?"

This comment came to me with a bad rep point. Honestly...

She-Sulsa,

If the point was green it was positive.

If the point was grey it was positive and the person giving it does not have enough points themself to cause a change to you. These are neutral.

If the point was red then yes it was negative.

I know others have had this issue before, so I mention it only for clarification if needed.

:asian:

 

[shesulsa]

Tulisan:asian: :

At the time of the knife incident I had never even had training on joint locks at all - interesting instinctive response, given that I don't think most joint locks will really work against knives. As for the cut - it was interesting, it took me aback immediately, I dropped whatever it was I had in my hand, I immediately began to perspire, pant...not long after, I was looking up at the ceiling wondering how I got there. Small, deep slashing cut...but it certainly affected me.

Mr. Parsons:asian: :

Thank you for the clarification - it was red. But that's okay, I think I know who it came from (wink).

Eternally learning.....

 

[OUMoose]

I think that knife defenses and knife disarms are 2 completely different animals. A former instructor once told me "don't look for a disarm, but if it presents itself to you, don't ignore it." Those are pretty wise words. If you hunt for a disarm, attempting to "Defang the snake" as people love to say, you're going to get cut. If in the course of combat an opening appears to you and your instincts say do it, do it!

My guide to knife defense:
Technique #0: Talk your way out! but since everyone knows how to talk, lets move on.

Technique #1: The "Nike" technique - While keeping your awareness on your attacker, take 5 steps backwards. In those 5 steps, rotate your torso and legs approximately 180 degrees, keeping lightly on the balls of your feet. When rotation is complete, firmly plant your lead leg, extend your lead arm and back leg forward in a vigorous motion, causing you to move away at an accelertated pace. Repeat until the attacker is no longer in sight.

Technique #2: "Smokescreening" - whatever small object available to you, pick it up. Dirt, change, a piece of wood, some garbage, etc, all make handy tools. Using an underhand (or sidearm if you feel more comfortable), project those loose objects into the face/eyes of the attacker. I would refrain from using an overhand throw since it takes a bit more time to ready, and telegraphs your intent. Then, refer to technique #1.

If you get to this point and the aggressor is still advancing, the only thing going to help you is actual training, so keep your arms in, tuck your chin, and hope the aggressor doesn't know what he/she is doing!