Slashing with knives vs stabbing

[Bester]

Let us pause in Mr. Ed's proof of which portion of the horse he is, to examine his credentials. He of course will not reply, as to do so will prove his true fraud nature.

Itto Ogami Ryu is dedicated to providing world-class Jujutsu instruction, programs and facilities, and to helping our students realize the significant self-defense, self-improvement and physical fitness benefits of Jujutsu.

As the Samurai of old, the main reason for learning jujutsu was to protect oneself from attack by unarmed or armed assailants. The best defense is a strong offense. In our style you will learn simple, easy to learn techniques that will stop an attacker as quickly as possible. You will also learn many restraint techniques when the situation calls for a more controlled response.


Sensei Glasheen has been studying Jujutsu since 1980. He currently holds the rank of Menkyo ( teaching license). He served 11 years in the United States Army with the rank of Chief Warrant Officer. He is currently Chief Instructor at Itto Ogami Ryu Jujutsu New York.

Hmm....

Questions...questions....


Ah! ?When you made up the name for your style, why didn't you take the time to get the grammer for the name correct?


Reference: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=48551&postcount=40

Hmm...paragraph 2 is standard marketing hype....

Ah, #3

"Sensei Glasheen has been studying Jujutsu since 1980."
Who with? What is your lineage?

"He currently holds the rank of Menkyo ( teaching license)."
Who issued it and when?

"He served 11 years in the United States Army with the rank of Chief Warrant Officer."
You were a CWO for 11 years? or reached it after 11 years service?
What grade? (There are 4)
What area os specialization?

11 years?

Private (E-2) - 6 months
Private First Class (E-3) - 1 year
Specialist/Corporal (E-4) - 18 months
Sergeant (E-5) - 4.2 years
Staff Sergeant (E-6) - 8.5 years
Sergeant First Class (E-7) - 13.6 years
Master Sergeant/First Sergeant (E-8) - 17 years
Sergeant Major (E-9) - 20.8 years

A CWO minimally has:

Minimum prerequisites:

Be a SGT (E5) or above
Have a minimum of four years operational experience in 75 series MOS
Be a 75 series MOS BNCOC graduate
Have 6 semester hours of college level English
Have 18 months experience supervising 75 series MOS soldiers documented on NCOER
Have a PMOS of 75B, F, H

References:
http://armedforcescareers.com/insignia_warrantofficers.html
http://leav-www.army.mil/wocc/whatiswo.htm
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/arwarrant/bl420a.htm

 

[Stick Dummy]

Methinks you need to get a better understanding of the FMA/IMA styles, and stop referring to everything inclusive done by them as "defanging the snake".

I was at a seminar last year, and this subject was brought up by the guest instructor (A FMA stylist of some international repute), his comment was a disarm was exactly that, to hack (variation of a "slash") the intruding arm off when it was in range. ..........

Next you will be telling us the Chinese Martial arts are "soft" and lack power.

Once again, please answer my above listed questions for some validation of your real world/real time experiences and theorum.

 

[Bester]

Ed's pretty close on the Roman stuff.

Of course, he totally ignores the entire Japanese sword culture, who focus around the lethal aspects of the SLASH!

But, lets not interupt his fantasy with reality.

 

[Flatlander]

Roman soliders would wait for the enemy to close, smash thier shileds into them , as a weapon, then thrust their gladius into the bodies of the enemy. The sword was thrusted side ways to penetrate the rib cage and the vital organs.
Ed

I don't usually carry a puncture proof sheild with me in public.

In a defensive system you are already behind because you are responding to the attackers input. It is very hard to regain the offense when put in a defensive posture. This is where most MA fail

I wouldn't want to eliminate defensive aspects to training.

The only way to score goals in soccer is to kick the ball at the net. Should we pull the goalie, put another striker out there, and expect to win? Come on now.

Yes I do belive you can use a slash as an entry to a stab, but realiance on this technique is not the best course of action.

Reliance on any ONE technique is never the best course of action. I don't believe that anyone here has claimed that relying solely on a slash IS the best course of action. Who are you refuting here?

 

[Flatlander]

Good Post Bester! Thank you for bringing that to light. You are probably right, I don't imagine you will get a direct response to any of that. I'm going to add to your reputation for that one.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ed's pretty close on the Roman stuff.

Of course, he totally ignores the entire Japanese sword culture, who focus around the lethal aspects of the SLASH!

But, lets not interupt his fantasy with reality.

Lets see, the Katana, held by many to be the ultimate in sword design, is a slashing weapon. Arts such as Iaido teach how to kill with 1 cut...yes, 1 cut, not stab.

Now, onto the topic of arteries...
http://www.sirinet.net/~jgjohnso/bloodvessels.html

I see some nice targets in the neck, abdomen, and legs. All of which are accessible by slashing. In fact, if I was targeting them, I would slash, as a stab has a higher chance of missing and just puncturing muscle.

Let us also not forget, its hard to fight while holding ones guts in due to the belly shot ya just took.

But, what do I know....I'm just an FMA blue belt. :rofl:

 

[lonewolf12563]

I think some Europeans would disagree with you on that one. Ed

 

[Cthulhu]

Please translate 'Itto Ogami Ryu'.

Cthulhu

 

[someguy]

Of course swords are a differnt anmal they have more legnth and weight. Still I think there may be some reason forknives to ave edges. If slashs weren't worth it then they would have gone by the wayside over the thousands of years.
There is one way to score a point in kendo with a thrust I'm pretty sure. Are there any thrusts in Iaido?
Oh and as t the roman stuff lets also remember the whoel claymore thing in scotland. Flamberg also plent of none thrusting weapons in Europe. Rapiars came about but kept an edge and was only for a duel not for war. As to knives for a fight. Winning is all that matters. Slash thrust doesn't matter its all about when its done.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think some Europeans would disagree with you on that one. Ed

Sigh...

Iaido, Kenjutsu, Battojutsu, Iaijutsu, etc...all Japanese arts based on slashing.

European arts...hmm....nope, can't think of any. Though there are some recreation groups that have been digging up info. SCA, HMA, etc.

As to sword blade types...

http://members.aol.com/dargolyt/TheForge/katana.htm


The Katana

The katana was the Japanese sword of legendary craftsmanship and rich lore. It was the primary sword weapon of the Japanese feudal knights, the Samurai. The crafting of these weapons was considered an art form; each weapon was meticulously forged, shaped, tempered, and honed. The average katana consisted of 27 different pieces, including the scabbard; each piece was specially designed to fit perfectly with the others. The katana blade ran the length of the weapon and the handles were attached with pegs to the outside of the blade’s tang (the portion of the blade opposite the tip, normally fitted into the weapon hilt). Unlike swords where the blade is fitted into the hilt, thus allowing the blade to be broken off the handle, the katana, being essentially a single piece of steel, had to be broken literally in half before it was rendered useless. Katanas were single edged with a stunted, sharpened tip for thrusts. While the blades were rarely longer than three feet, the handles were always long enough to allow the Samurai a two handed grip.



Great rites governed the use, display, and carry of the katana. The Samurai recognized 16 separate attack forms with the katana, from a diagonal slash across the chest to the a horizontal slash across the hips (easiest to most difficult). The katana was always carried with a shorter blade, the wakizashi. Together the pair was called a daisho (Japanese meaning “large-small”). Samurai carried the daisho through the girdle of their clothing with the weapon edges facing up. Katanas were passed down unmodified through generations in a family but the scabbards (lacquered and enameled wood, usually decorated) were often changed as new styles became popular. Rarely would a Samurai display his katana to anyone except during combat; it was considered unprofessional to fully remove the blade from its scabbard outside of combat.

The Gladius

The Gladius was the short sword characteristically used by legionaries of the Roman empire from 50 to 400 AD. Shown at left, it was a double edged blade ideal for both thrusting and slashing. It is thought to have been modeled on the Spanish sword, gladius hispaniensis.

Japanese sword making is still considered an artform today. Historically, Damascus and Toledo steel swords were also considered top quality.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Of course swords are a differnt anmal they have more legnth and weight. Still I think there may be some reason forknives to ave edges. If slashs weren't worth it then they would have gone by the wayside over the thousands of years.
There is one way to score a point in kendo with a thrust I'm pretty sure. Are there any thrusts in Iaido?
Oh and as t the roman stuff lets also remember the whoel claymore thing in scotland. Flamberg also plent of none thrusting weapons in Europe. Rapiars came about but kept an edge and was only for a duel not for war. As to knives for a fight. Winning is all that matters. Slash thrust doesn't matter its all about when its done.

http://members.aol.com/dargolyt/TheForge/OHEMAIN.HTM has some interesting info, in a basic way, on the types of weapons and their use.

 

[lonewolf12563]

If you look up Japanees history on Tanto jujutsu you will see they primarily used it in a stabbing motion.
Someguy..yes winning is all that matters..I agree.
Itto Ogami Ryu is lone (one) wolf school. Although not perfect Japanese this is what I choose. Why?
Because I am a wolf conservationist http://wolf.org/wolves/
I identify with the lonewolf theme and it is traditional for a new jujutsu school to have it's own name. How many schools do you know that have their own names? Besides my last name would suck as so and so martial arts.
This is what I chose. Ogami Itto Ryu does not sound right to me although I have seen it spelled both ways.
Jujutsu is not a franchise. Except for this whole BJJ thing and a few others. There were many different named ryus in Japan. Each represented a family and there Ideals. My lineage is along the Yama Bushi lineage. But I will not say why or where or whom. All that matters is the test of what works and what doesn't. Yes I am a Menkyo Kaiden. I earned it. But I wear no belt when I go to work nor carry a sword or this other fantasy ****. All you can do is train with me...and as others have you may be surprised. Not to say I am the zen god of MA. But I do what I do well. That I can prove.
So go ahead search the internet all you what to prove this point or that point. It doesn't mean anything other than you helped me occupy my rainy Monday. Thanks Ed

 

[Cthulhu]

Wolf in Japanese should be 'ookami'...not ogami.

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

I thought the Romans used stabbing so they could keep in tight ranks and work more as a compact unit.

Yes, I think this was a big part of it--and also how it worked with their shields, as was mentioned. They were big on unit tactics, and we're talking about that here. It changes the game.

There's much to be said for the slash. You can use it to get in to stabbing range if desired.

In looking at statistics, ask yourself how many times someone took a slash to the arm, saw the blood, decided discretion was the better part of valor, and fled. No death, maybe no police report--but something happened nonetheless.

 

[arnisador]

A stab may well give a quicker kill--nut it's riskier to get into stabbing range.

A slash may well be less likely to kill--but if it stops the attack, that's all that matters in self-defense.

I can easily believe a military emphasis on the stab--quicker and more lethal--but the slash has much going for it for self-defense. If I was trying to escape a POW camp and had to take out a sentry before he sounded an alarm, a stab looks good (not that it's teh only option). If three guys are around me trying to get my wallet, quick slashes at each start to sound appealing rather than getting tied up with one.

There's also issues like hand running up the blade, stab stopping on bone, folder collapsing, etc., that are less of an issue with a slash. Certainly, I usually start with slasshes in most cases, possibly stabbing later.

As to iaido: Yes, there are some stabs, but not many compared to the cuts.

 

[Cruentus]

Stabs can be more lethal then a slash, but they both have their place. When I teach military people, I emphasis more of a stabing strategy. Civilians, a slashing strategy.

But hey, what do I know. Perhaps lonewolf can enlighten me onto how stupid I am and how frikin sweet he is just like he did to practically everyone in the last wonderful discussion that he started.

Errr....why'd I post on this one again (I ask myself)? :idunno:

 

[Cryozombie]

My lineage is along the Yama Bushi lineage.

Hmmm.

 

[Cryozombie]

As to iaido: Yes, there are some stabs, but not many compared to the cuts.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but I have a question... isnt Iaido the art of drawing and cutting in a single motion? Or do i have my terms mixed up again?

If so... how do you draw and stab?

 

[muaythaifreak]

The propensity for a stab to kill is dependant upon the location of the penetration. If one is stabbed in the forearm, chances are it's going to do less damage than would a slash in the same area. A properly executed slash will ALWAYS produce a larger wound than a stab. Additionally if the slash is made with a sharp blade and a strong hand, it very likely will penetrate more than deep enough to cause injury to vital organs. Not all vitals are protected by the ribcage. The argument that a stab will end the fight more quickly than a slash is purely conjecture. Perhaps if one were stabbed in the temple or the eye with enough force, but what are the chances of stabbing someone in the eye in the middle of a confrontation? Not so high I think. On the other hand there are much larger targets available to a slash attack wich will end a fight very rapidly if not immediately. i.e. a deep slash to the thigh, even if you don't get an artery or vein, (which you very likely will.) if you separate enough muscle and tendon, the attacker will not be able to continue his assault nearly as well on one leg. Also the shoulder, you separate the muscles of the shoulder from their respective tendons, they can no longer move the bones which are being used to attack you. I would prefer not to have either done to me, but if I had to choose, I'd say I would rather be stabbed in the throat than to be slashed there. The veins and arteries are not that far below the surface of the skin. All in all, I believe the slash to be more effective than the stab, but a combination of the two is probably what I would go with in a real world knife fight encounter.

 

[arnisador]

Most techniques in iaido will start with a quick draw, often going directly into a cut, but then will follow up with another cut(s) or less often a stab. Some techniques start with a half-draw that is used to stop your opponent from drawing his sword! It's more about close-quarters sudden attacks than draw-and-cut per se.

There are many styles of iaido/iaijutsu/battodo/etc., so things can vary by style.