skk forms principles

[DavidCC]

It is the first form which moves backwards while fighting.


What else does 2 kata hold in the way of principles?

I can think of line reinforcement. The act of moving up and back on the same line either in the same direction or opposite. 2 kata has both.

What else?

That's interesting and I can't wait to get home to see what you mean.


But I have to wonder, do ideas like this make for a better probability of success if attacked?

 

[JTKenpo]

But I have to wonder, do ideas like this make for a better probability of success if attacked?

It doesn't really have to do with better success. In two kata after the side kick and step up to 1:30. If you draw a line from 1:30 to 7:30 the next few sequences move up and down this line. The first sequence moves on this line forward then back then forward again always facing 1:30 then the turn to 7:30 and defending against 7:30. This movement on the line from 1:30 to 7:30 is line reenforcement, so it is more of an understanding of motion than a better application for success if attacked.

 

[RevIV]

Beg. of 2 kata -- defense against the beginning of 1 kata. you can keep doing the 2 back and forth against a partner continously.
Jesse

 

[DavidCC]

nvm

 

[marlon]

doesn't combo 7 move backwards?

mebbe my 7 is different, maybe it comes earlier for us... but that yellow belt tech starts with moving backwards on a diagonal.

we slip the punch to the side with more of a shift in wieght and head movement and then kick the ribs or knee..so not really backwards for us

marlon

 

[14 Kempo]

we slip the punch to the side with more of a shift in wieght and head movement and then kick the ribs or knee..so not really backwards for us

marlon

Same here, we slip. The idea we use is that #7 is used when there is not enough time to deploy #6. If there is time to step, there is time to kick ... at least that is how we look at it. Of course a retreating step could be seen the same. Stepping back to buy time with which to deploy the kick. But for us, it's a weight shift and head movement, much like a boxer.

 

[marlon]

2 kata also uses more counter strikes with the arm that blocks. Although we teach the natural strikes at yellow the forms up until 2 kata usually strikes with the opposite hand than the one that blocks. This is a major kempo principle. It is also the first form where we do more than one kick without stepping down. Becuase of the various angles and reversals i find that there are many throws after strikes in 2 kata and this too is a predominate characteristic of sk (and very different from AK)...but perhaps i am reverse engineering too much here to say this is a principle inherent in the form. We also block and punch simultaneously in this form which is new for the student here and marry a circular movenment with a linear one which is also new but becomes more predominate at the advanced belts. 2 kata is a pre introduction to many of the concepts taught to the advanced students in sk

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

That's interesting and I can't wait to get home to see what you mean.


But I have to wonder, do ideas like this make for a better probability of success if attacked?

lets say you use these movements against different attackers then the answer would be no...however if you work your form on a body and try these ideas on one attacker you will see (at least i do) that you begin to move and continue your attack / counter attack from unexpected places. My understanding of sk is that the best sk is when the attack seems to come out of no where and also we do not practice to re set frontally to our attacker but rather continue fighting from where we are in front at the side behind...etc.

try it out and let me know

marlon

 

[marlon]

Same here, we slip. The idea we use is that #7 is used when there is not enough time to deploy #6. If there is time to step, there is time to kick ... at least that is how we look at it. Of course a retreating step could be seen the same. Stepping back to buy time with which to deploy the kick. But for us, it's a weight shift and head movement, much like a boxer.

plus a kick thrown to the side in this manner negates the center equilibrium of the attacker thereby having a more dramatic effect without adding more strength than striking directly ino thier line of force.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

Beg. of 2 kata -- defense against the beginning of 1 kata. you can keep doing the 2 back and forth against a partner continously.
Jesse

Jesse i too love this exercise. With a little re working and agle adjustment most of the moves btwn 1 and 2 kata counter each other.

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[DavidCC]

But for us, it's a weight shift and head movement, much like a boxer.

you don't move the feet? do you side-kick to the ribs?

 

[14 Kempo]

you don't move the feet? do you side-kick to the ribs?

It more of a shift, not a step. It is taught with a side kick to the floating ribs, but in reality it is a side kick to the knee.

 

[DavidCC]

If there is time to step, there is time to kick ...

we teach the reason to use 7 instead of 6 is the degree of forward momentum. If the attacker is closing very hard/fast we use 7 to get off the 'train tracks' and counter attack from an angle. By moving to 730 we buy time and get a favorable angle off his line of attack. I don;t see how you can do that with only shifting weight and bobbing your head.

 

[14 Kempo]

we teach the reason to use 7 instead of 6 is the degree of forward momentum. If the attacker is closing very hard/fast we use 7 to get off the 'train tracks' and counter attack from an angle. By moving to 730 we buy time and get a favorable angle off his line of attack. I don;t see how you can do that with only shifting weight and bobbing your head.

Maybe you can't ... it works for me ... I'm able to avoid the attack. Afterall is said and done, I need to avoid the attack and counter. If I need to step back to 7:30, I do it. If I need to step to 9:00, I do that. Our style does not state that a technique MUST be done this way!!!

Our philosophy is to teach it the way we were taught and encourage the practitioner, with the help of the instructor, to experiment with what works and what doesn't dependent upon the attack, its speed, power and angle of attack, whether it is a punch (right, left or combination), a kick, a push, whatever. Find what works and what doesn't. We realize that there isn't going to be someone there, at an altercation, to yell numbers at us, we will need to simply do what comes to us, without thinking. I react to the situation, if I step to 7:30 and deliever a strike to the knee and that stops my adversary, you won't see me complaining that I stepped rather than pivoted. You will see me removing myself from further incident.

Either way, it's all #7. The concept, as I see it, it to avoid an attack and counter with a linear kick.

 

[kidswarrior]

we teach the reason to use 7 instead of 6 is the degree of forward momentum. If the attacker is closing very hard/fast we use 7 to get off the 'train tracks' and counter attack from an angle. By moving to 730 we buy time and get a favorable angle off his line of attack. I don;t see how you can do that with only shifting weight and bobbing your head.

Me, too. Also, as a way to get out of the line of a hand coming forward from behind the attacker, presumably with a weapon of some kind (brass or hard plastic knuckles, makeshift blade, etc.).

 

[DavidCC]

Maybe you can't ... it works for me ... I'm able to avoid the attack. Afterall is said and done, I need to avoid the attack and counter. If I need to step back to 7:30, I do it. If I need to step to 9:00, I do that. Our style does not state that a technique MUST be done this way!!!

Our philosophy is to teach it the way we were taught and encourage the practitioner, with the help of the instructor, to experiment with what works and what doesn't dependent upon the attack, its speed, power and angle of attack, whether it is a punch (right, left or combination), a kick, a push, whatever. Find what works and what doesn't. We realize that there isn't going to be someone there, at an altercation, to yell numbers at us, we will need to simply do what comes to us, without thinking. I react to the situation, if I step to 7:30 and deliever a strike to the knee and that stops my adversary, you won't see me complaining that I stepped rather than pivoted. You will see me removing myself from further incident.

Either way, it's all #7. The concept, as I see it, it to avoid an attack and counter with a linear kick.

I guess it's just a different approach between our schools. We teach the combos with specific footwork - but of course formulation happens in application.

We teach the principle of #7 to be "move off line of the attack and counter attack from an angle with a linear kick". So with that principle we move our feet, and we teach them the specifc footwork dictated by our version of the technique. Once they get that, then we start looking at how to read the timing to know to move to different angles or distance.

 

[14 Kempo]

I guess it's just a different approach between our schools. We teach the combos with specific footwork - but of course formulation happens in application.

We teach the principle of #7 to be "move off line of the attack and counter attack from an angle with a linear kick". So with that principle we move our feet, and we teach them the specifc footwork dictated by our version of the technique. Once they get that, then we start looking at how to read the timing to know to move to different angles or distance.

It's pretty much the same thing. You are concentrated on moving off the line as a whole, we look at the line as the punch coming at our face, not a train wreck coming along. It's the same principle, different application. I don't feel either is wrong in anyway, shape or form, just a different approach to the same outcome.

 

[JTKenpo]

2 kata also uses more counter strikes with the arm that blocks. Although we teach the natural strikes at yellow the forms up until 2 kata usually strikes with the opposite hand than the one that blocks. This is a major kempo principle. It is also the first form where we do more than one kick without stepping down. Becuase of the various angles and reversals i find that there are many throws after strikes in 2 kata and this too is a predominate characteristic of sk (and very different from AK)...but perhaps i am reverse engineering too much here to say this is a principle inherent in the form. We also block and punch simultaneously in this form which is new for the student here and marry a circular movenment with a linear one which is also new but becomes more predominate at the advanced belts. 2 kata is a pre introduction to many of the concepts taught to the advanced students in sk

Respectfully,
Marlon

I see one of the predominant principles in 3 kata being how to defend yourself from awkward positions ie transitions. In this form we use the transitions as our first point of attack/defense rather then setting a fighting stance. I believe this is a precursor to forms such as swift tigers where we are dealing with multiple opponents and not able to finish a defense before having to defend against another position then returning to the previous attacker. Open hand strikes are also more prevelant in this form and I believe this shows the Kempo founders pointing out how important finger training to be and the idea of toughening the hands. Thoughts?

 

[RevIV]

I see one of the predominant principles in 3 kata being how to defend yourself from awkward positions ie transitions. In this form we use the transitions as our first point of attack/defense rather then setting a fighting stance. I believe this is a precursor to forms such as swift tigers where we are dealing with multiple opponents and not able to finish a defense before having to defend against another position then returning to the previous attacker. Open hand strikes are also more prevelant in this form and I believe this shows the Kempo founders pointing out how important finger training to be and the idea of toughening the hands. Thoughts?

Granted I have never seen SGM Pesare or his students do the original 7th Pinan, but Swift Tigers is said to be a 3 generation down variation of it. SGM Pesare also used to do a lot of hand conditioning in his training so you may be onto something there. But what kind of hand conditioning? Striking? grasping? clawing? poking?
Jesse

 

[Josh Oakley]

Beg. of 2 kata -- defense against the beginning of 1 kata. you can keep doing the 2 back and forth against a partner continously.
Jesse

Might be fun. Would you be using that chicken wrist to block the punch, then? Or to deflect the punch slightly with the motion of the chicken wrist, while the actual wrist hits the chin?