Siu Bot Gwa
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futsaowingchun
Black Belt
You asked a question " what is Siu Bot Gwa" and I told you to the best of my ability. I have trained in Wing Chun for over 30 years. I have trained with a lot of people and have traveled all over the world meeting many wing chun masters from many lines so I talk from my experience not just hot air. You just don't like the answer i gave you.. I told you in a direct and simple way just like Wing Chun. Also,I'm the only one here qualified that has studied both Io Man WC and Fut Sao WC so I can make an opinion based on a direct experience. I don't think anyone here can. I like all lines of WC. I personally don't think one is better then another but not all are the same. Fut Sao happends to be different in certain ways. One way is its footwork. I would also say Ip Man WC is different in certain ways also. On way is it is more of a modern and can be explained in western terms unlike Fut sao which still uses the old chinese ways of thinking like the bat qwa, the five powers and so on...Anyone that really is interested in the footwork should come and seek me out. i will gladly show it to you. Ihave no problem with that. It's not a secret its only footwork that is different from what most are not used to. most would say its not wing chun....
One thing I like to add and make clear. "when I said IMO Ip Man WC footwork is incomplete" should not be taken as incomplete lacking in footwork,but meaning lacking a 4th form and additional footwork that is used outside Ip man WC.
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futsaowingchun
Black Belt
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
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Inaccurate generalization about Ip Man's wing chun...for sure.
futsaowingchun
Black Belt
prove me wrong if I'm wrong all you have is a lot of hot air..
According to Grandmaster Henry Leung, Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen came from a very old system of martial and healing art believed to pre-date Shaolin. Fut Sao is a subset of an original Taoist internal system, that was kept within itÂ’s own sect, but was lost and forgotten until it was rediscovered by the Venerable Hsu Yun, GM Henry LeungÂ’s Sifu (a Buddhist monk. The original name of the art was called Gu Yee Kuen or Ancient Fist). The Gu Yee Kuen system is thought to be the core or root system, on which other arts also came about. GM Henry Leung named the subset Fut Sao or Buddha Hand in honor of his sifu.
Hmm, out of curiosity, if the origins of this style are said to have pre-dated Shaolin & even to be a sub-set of an Internal Taoist system, how exactly is this Wing Chun?
Most lineages trace their lineages back to the 1800's, with a few stating that theirs are from the 1600's. So what makes it Wing Chun in other words? Because it has SLT/CK/BG? The history section leaves many things to question, but that's good in a way.
Hmm, out of curiosity, if the origins of this style are said to have pre-dated Shaolin & even to be a sub-set of an Internal Taoist system, how exactly is this Wing Chun?
Most lineages trace their lineages back to the 1800's, with a few stating that theirs are from the 1600's. So what makes it Wing Chun in other words? Because it has SLT/CK/BG? The history section leaves many things to question, but that's good in a way.
According to Grandmaster Henry Leung, Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen came from a very old system of martial and healing art believed to pre-date Shaolin. Fut Sao is a subset of an original Taoist internal system, that was kept within itÂ’s own sect, but was lost and forgotten until it was rediscovered by the Venerable Hsu Yun, GM Henry LeungÂ’s Sifu (a Buddhist monk.
Emei!!!
The original name of the art was called Gu Yee Kuen or Ancient Fist). The Gu Yee Kuen system is thought to be the core or root system, on which other arts also came about. GM Henry Leung named the subset Fut Sao or Buddha Hand in honor of his sifu.
Henry Leung was Duncan Leung's brother, wasn't he? Seems likely to me that Henry Leung knew Wing Chun, learned something else from his Sifu, combined it with Wing Chun, and viola! Fut Sao Wing Chun! Notice that the narrative above calls the "extra" that he learned a "subset."
Emei!!!
The original name of the art was called Gu Yee Kuen or Ancient Fist). The Gu Yee Kuen system is thought to be the core or root system, on which other arts also came about. GM Henry Leung named the subset Fut Sao or Buddha Hand in honor of his sifu.
Henry Leung was Duncan Leung's brother, wasn't he? Seems likely to me that Henry Leung knew Wing Chun, learned something else from his Sifu, combined it with Wing Chun, and viola! Fut Sao Wing Chun! Notice that the narrative above calls the "extra" that he learned a "subset."
OP
OP
Kwan Sau
Purple Belt
Really? Wow, hadn't heard that before. Interesting. Where did you learn that or hear about it? Would like to know more...
What is a "subset"? How is that term defined? Like an add-on as you describe? Or something outside the "normal" curriculum of the three forms, jong, pole, knives etc?
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
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Thx for your post.
Names! Siu, bot/ba/ gwat are just labels used by different systems. Also--- forms and drills- their meanings also vary. And wing chun "history" can be problematic.
Further "history" is muddled with in sufficiently substantiated but repeated claims of very "old" roots of one's art--before Shaolin, "before Ip Man"," back to Leung Jan", "emei twelve",etc.
For myself- I mostly stick to the logic,the concepts, the mechanics, dynamics, the external and internal and breathing of any martial art that I am interested in.
It makes sense to distinguish between forms and drills. Drills generally have some specific functions-footwork, handwork, timing, etc.
A form is more holistic combining self timing, footwork, handwork, breathing, mind training-stage by stage and using Occam's razor to create a comprehensive package.
The great systems have only one, two or there forms Ip man always worked on simplification -cutting out many movements because the principle already was embedded elsewhere.The Ip Man wingchun I learned, practice and teach- already has bot- 8 directional work. The dummy work, the kwan and the do simply enhance and inform the hands. Bot/baqua is even there in forms of
jing- multi directional explosive baquajing.
Chen taiji has two main forms. Ip Man's wing chun has 3 empty hand forms-- but they are inter-related- overt time they become progressive stages of one form. Thus the biu function is in all 3 forms.
It does exist, but it is greatly varied by various lines. Remnants of it can be found in the various lineages that claim direct lineage to Huang Hua Bao and Da Hua Mian Jin.
Short forms preserved:
1. La Jian Chui - Stretching Arrow Strike
2. Shier Sanshi - 12 Loose Techniques
3. Lian Huan Kou Da - Linked Capture & Strike
4. Shisan Sanshi - 13 Loose Techniques
5. Shiba Sanshi - 18 Loose Techniques
6. Jian Quan - Arrow Fist
7. Shiliu Sanshi - 16 Loose Techniques
Long forms preserved:
1. Xiao Ba Gua Quan - Small 8 Diagrams Fist
2. Ba Gua Quan - 8 Diagrams Fist
3. Jian Zhang Quan - Arrow Palm Fist
4. Zhuang Kuang Quan - Post Frame Fist
5. Zhuang Quan - Post Fist
6. Si Men Quan - 4 Gates Fist
7. Hua Quan - Flower/Variegated Fist
8. Shiyi Shou Quan - 11 Hands Fist
9. San Bei Fo Quan - 3 Prayers to Buddha Fist
10. Qiang Bao Zhang Quan - Mast Bag Palm Fist
All of these forms and sets can be accurately traced back to Huang Hua Bao or Da Hua Mian Jin and as such are considered ancestral. All other forms and sets outside of the above listed and the 3 standard (Xiao Lian Tou Quan, Chen Qiao Quan & Biao Zhi Quan) are considered modern developments coming into existence after the 1940's by either creation or imported from outside arts. Weapons sets and the Post(s) were poorly organized and not codified in any sense of a "form" until approximately the 1930's, hence the overflow of extra material found in the sets and forms presented above. After the codification of the post and weapons many of these patterns disappeared from several lineages in their ancestral form. Some lineages, though did retain them.
Most of the long forms are simply a collection of the loose material and the shorter "unfinished" sets, some are simply elaborations on the 3 sections of the first set Xiao Lian Tou Quan. Mostly what they have to offer is further exploration of certain concepts and/or footwork. Yong Chun was originally a very simplistic art based on approximately 48 techniques bound and linked by various concepts, principles and theories. As with many systems of TMA "Forms" were simply a collection of loose techniques and theoretical approach, to be composed/choreographed into a "Set" once the adept had learned all the movements and theory. This is known as Kuang Lian (Frame Training) and is an old TMA concept that stems from military training. This can clearly be seen in Northern Chinese systems as well as in Okinawan Kata, ever wonder why two or more lineages that trained under the same master have two Taolu/Kata that are recognizable yet vary in length and choreography? Some of this is undoubtedly alterations made by those that passed it on but also because of the old "Frame Training" method that used to be prevalent before the WWI. The British aristocracy and the opera had a lot to do with the standardization of Taolu for performance reasons.
Irregardless these sets will offer little to individuals that learned a "completed" version of Yong Chun, for those who "didn't" they may offer some insight into various concepts. I for one have learned some of these sets and find them interesting and worthwhile, others may not, to each their own.
Short forms preserved:
1. La Jian Chui - Stretching Arrow Strike
2. Shier Sanshi - 12 Loose Techniques
3. Lian Huan Kou Da - Linked Capture & Strike
4. Shisan Sanshi - 13 Loose Techniques
5. Shiba Sanshi - 18 Loose Techniques
6. Jian Quan - Arrow Fist
7. Shiliu Sanshi - 16 Loose Techniques
Long forms preserved:
1. Xiao Ba Gua Quan - Small 8 Diagrams Fist
2. Ba Gua Quan - 8 Diagrams Fist
3. Jian Zhang Quan - Arrow Palm Fist
4. Zhuang Kuang Quan - Post Frame Fist
5. Zhuang Quan - Post Fist
6. Si Men Quan - 4 Gates Fist
7. Hua Quan - Flower/Variegated Fist
8. Shiyi Shou Quan - 11 Hands Fist
9. San Bei Fo Quan - 3 Prayers to Buddha Fist
10. Qiang Bao Zhang Quan - Mast Bag Palm Fist
All of these forms and sets can be accurately traced back to Huang Hua Bao or Da Hua Mian Jin and as such are considered ancestral. All other forms and sets outside of the above listed and the 3 standard (Xiao Lian Tou Quan, Chen Qiao Quan & Biao Zhi Quan) are considered modern developments coming into existence after the 1940's by either creation or imported from outside arts. Weapons sets and the Post(s) were poorly organized and not codified in any sense of a "form" until approximately the 1930's, hence the overflow of extra material found in the sets and forms presented above. After the codification of the post and weapons many of these patterns disappeared from several lineages in their ancestral form. Some lineages, though did retain them.
Most of the long forms are simply a collection of the loose material and the shorter "unfinished" sets, some are simply elaborations on the 3 sections of the first set Xiao Lian Tou Quan. Mostly what they have to offer is further exploration of certain concepts and/or footwork. Yong Chun was originally a very simplistic art based on approximately 48 techniques bound and linked by various concepts, principles and theories. As with many systems of TMA "Forms" were simply a collection of loose techniques and theoretical approach, to be composed/choreographed into a "Set" once the adept had learned all the movements and theory. This is known as Kuang Lian (Frame Training) and is an old TMA concept that stems from military training. This can clearly be seen in Northern Chinese systems as well as in Okinawan Kata, ever wonder why two or more lineages that trained under the same master have two Taolu/Kata that are recognizable yet vary in length and choreography? Some of this is undoubtedly alterations made by those that passed it on but also because of the old "Frame Training" method that used to be prevalent before the WWI. The British aristocracy and the opera had a lot to do with the standardization of Taolu for performance reasons.
Irregardless these sets will offer little to individuals that learned a "completed" version of Yong Chun, for those who "didn't" they may offer some insight into various concepts. I for one have learned some of these sets and find them interesting and worthwhile, others may not, to each their own.
OP
OP
Kwan Sau
Purple Belt
It does exist, but it is greatly varied by various lines. Remnants of it can be found in the various lineages that claim direct lineage to Huang Hua Bao and Da Hua Mian Jin....
Some lineages, though did retain them....
Irregardless these sets will offer little to individuals that learned a "completed" version of Yong Chun, for those who "didn't" they may offer some insight into various concepts. I for one have learned some of these sets and find them interesting and worthwhile, others may not, to each their own....
Wow! Thanks a lot for all that man. That is quite interesting!!!
Question: how short is a "short form"? And how long is a "long form"?
Thanks again! Great discussion!
It does exist, but it is greatly varied by various lines. Remnants of it can be found in the various lineages that claim direct lineage to Huang Hua Bao and Da Hua Mian Jin.
Short forms preserved:
1. La Jian Chui - Stretching Arrow Strike
2. Shier Sanshi - 12 Loose Techniques
3. Lian Huan Kou Da - Linked Capture & Strike
4. Shisan Sanshi - 13 Loose Techniques
5. Shiba Sanshi - 18 Loose Techniques
6. Jian Quan - Arrow Fist
7. Shiliu Sanshi - 16 Loose Techniques
Long forms preserved:
1. Xiao Ba Gua Quan - Small 8 Diagrams Fist
2. Ba Gua Quan - 8 Diagrams Fist
3. Jian Zhang Quan - Arrow Palm Fist
4. Zhuang Kuang Quan - Post Frame Fist
5. Zhuang Quan - Post Fist
6. Si Men Quan - 4 Gates Fist
7. Hua Quan - Flower/Variegated Fist
8. Shiyi Shou Quan - 11 Hands Fist
9. San Bei Fo Quan - 3 Prayers to Buddha Fist
10. Qiang Bao Zhang Quan - Mast Bag Palm Fist
All of these forms and sets can be accurately traced back to Huang Hua Bao or Da Hua Mian Jin and as such are considered ancestral. All other forms and sets outside of the above listed and the 3 standard (Xiao Lian Tou Quan, Chen Qiao Quan & Biao Zhi Quan) are considered modern developments coming into existence after the 1940's by either creation or imported from outside arts. Weapons sets and the Post(s) were poorly organized and not codified in any sense of a "form" until approximately the 1930's, hence the overflow of extra material found in the sets and forms presented above. After the codification of the post and weapons many of these patterns disappeared from several lineages in their ancestral form. Some lineages, though did retain them.
Most of the long forms are simply a collection of the loose material and the shorter "unfinished" sets, some are simply elaborations on the 3 sections of the first set Xiao Lian Tou Quan. Mostly what they have to offer is further exploration of certain concepts and/or footwork. Yong Chun was originally a very simplistic art based on approximately 48 techniques bound and linked by various concepts, principles and theories. As with many systems of TMA "Forms" were simply a collection of loose techniques and theoretical approach, to be composed/choreographed into a "Set" once the adept had learned all the movements and theory. This is known as Kuang Lian (Frame Training) and is an old TMA concept that stems from military training. This can clearly be seen in Northern Chinese systems as well as in Okinawan Kata, ever wonder why two or more lineages that trained under the same master have two Taolu/Kata that are recognizable yet vary in length and choreography? Some of this is undoubtedly alterations made by those that passed it on but also because of the old "Frame Training" method that used to be prevalent before the WWI. The British aristocracy and the opera had a lot to do with the standardization of Taolu for performance reasons.
Irregardless these sets will offer little to individuals that learned a "completed" version of Yong Chun, for those who "didn't" they may offer some insight into various concepts. I for one have learned some of these sets and find them interesting and worthwhile, others may not, to each their own.
Sources for any of this?
The short forms range from 9-18 movements. The long forms vary from approximately 40-200.
These methods are preserved in various lines stemming from Liang Zan, with the exception of Shisan Sanshi which is found in lineages stemming from Yi Jin and the Cao family of Malaysia.
Forms 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10 are preserved by the Tang, Lou, Dang & Ruan families that descended from Fang Shao Qing.
Forms 1*, 2*, 3**, 5, 6 are preserved by some lines descending from Liang Zan.
* 1, 2, In some versions of the history Liang Zan is the one who passed down the Ba Gua form.
** 3, This form was originally said to be a White Crane form that was possibly passed on by the Opera performer Li Wen Mao. According to legend it was passed on to Liang Zan and then Wu Zhong Su.
All in all these forms and sets are attributed to individuals from Liang Zan's time and earlier, making them ancestral sets. The differences in names are most likely due to the individuals that learned and modified them and not from the individual that taught it to them. I have seen many of these sets and can verify that many of them are expressing the same concepts, variances are in emphasis of preferred techniques and choreography. Some are simply a composition of the three recognized standard forms.
That's enough information to get anyone started into further research, investigate the family sources for yourselves if you want more detailed descriptions.
These methods are preserved in various lines stemming from Liang Zan, with the exception of Shisan Sanshi which is found in lineages stemming from Yi Jin and the Cao family of Malaysia.
Forms 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10 are preserved by the Tang, Lou, Dang & Ruan families that descended from Fang Shao Qing.
Forms 1*, 2*, 3**, 5, 6 are preserved by some lines descending from Liang Zan.
* 1, 2, In some versions of the history Liang Zan is the one who passed down the Ba Gua form.
** 3, This form was originally said to be a White Crane form that was possibly passed on by the Opera performer Li Wen Mao. According to legend it was passed on to Liang Zan and then Wu Zhong Su.
All in all these forms and sets are attributed to individuals from Liang Zan's time and earlier, making them ancestral sets. The differences in names are most likely due to the individuals that learned and modified them and not from the individual that taught it to them. I have seen many of these sets and can verify that many of them are expressing the same concepts, variances are in emphasis of preferred techniques and choreography. Some are simply a composition of the three recognized standard forms.
That's enough information to get anyone started into further research, investigate the family sources for yourselves if you want more detailed descriptions.
Now I see you, they're part of the Gulo curriculum that Leung Jan taught. IMO, having see the few of these, they're drilling sets (working on hardware) vs forms (working on software). Sometimes that's said Siu Lein Tao vs. Siu Nim Tao, such as Yik Kam's system which is WC combined with some outside influences.
That's Weng Chun, despite recent marketing attempts otherwise, it's a system separate to Wing Chun.
Can you be more specific? Since you're using Mandarin romanization vs the more common cantonese for WC, research is a bit difficult.
Proof is in the pudding.
These Sanshi methods are said to have come from Liang Li Tai (Leung Lee Dai) whose material was used by Liang Zan (Leung Jan) to create the Gulao (Koo Lo) method. Much of this material is still contained in it's loose form in various branches of Liang Zan (Leung Jan) and Ye wen (Yip Man) Yong Chun.
No it's not, there is no such beast, the terms "Beautiful" & "Praise" were used interchangeably throughout the history of the art even by members of the same lineage. It's simply preference of verbage. What many call "Weng Chun" consider it a different art, it is not. Fang Shao Qing (Fung Siu Ching) is a legitimate ancestor of the art and celebrated by many lineages of Yong Chun, most notebly the Ruan (Yuen) family who were direct inheritors of his art. Fang Shao Qing learned from Da Hua Mian Jin (Dai Wah Min Jan) who trained alongside of Huang Hua Bao (Wong Wah Bo) and Liang Li Tai (Leung Lee Dai) under Liang Bo Liu (Leung Bok Chao), the husband of Yan Yong Chun (Yim Wing Chun). The Dang (Dong), Tang and Lou (Lo) families may have embellished their method with arts such as Hongjia, but they are legitimately a part of the Yong Chun family, no different than Chen (Chan) or Cao (Cho) families or anyone else that descended from Liang Bo Liu (Leung Bok Chao). The lines stemming from Liang Zan are simply the most popular, especially Ye Wen (Yip Man) line, but should not be considered the standard for all Yong Chun branches.
And if you dig a bit further you'll see that there are many differnt flavors of pudding based on the same recipie. Pick the one you like, because one isn't better than another. It all comes down to personal preference.
futsaowingchun
Black Belt
Forget about what the website says. Like i said in my other post if you take the wooden dummy footwork and the weapons and put it together you in essense have something similar. The siu bot gwa has spinning foot work in it where you turn your back to your opponent. Would a Ip man wc man do this?
futsaowingchun
Black Belt
where do you live?
futsaowingchun
Black Belt
No.its not that. its very simple actually but hard to do when using linear hand work. the body is like a dragon and the hands like a crane.
futsaowingchun
Black Belt
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