Simplicity or Complexity in the MA?

[geezer]

The two martial arts I practice have training methods that can seem pretty complex, but in application, they always seek the simplest, most direct solution. On the other hand, I'm always amazed at some of the intricate and complicated self-defense sequences favored by some other martial arts.

Clearly, there are two schools of thought about this. In some arts, the better you get, the simpler and more streamlined your actions become. In others, the more advanced a practitioner is, the more elaborate and difficult the techniques he favors. Personally, I'm resigned to the fact that no amount of training will ever keep me from being a bit of a klutz. So, ever mindful of "Murphy's Law", I always favor the simplest solutions and I cringe when I see some the fancy stuff people demonstrate. But that's just me. How do the rest of you feel?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

The principle of my martial art is to become proficient with "il kyeok" or one strike to resolve the situation. I have seen many other schools within the same style of martial art as mine, and many of them favor the complex self-defense techniques. However, it is not what we focus on in our schools.

Personally, I see impracticality in complex techniques, it leaves too many margins for error. Again, this is just my opinion.. .

 

[Xue Sheng]

All I can say is Xingyiquan looks so simple and direct, what can be more simple than a philosophy of "I’m going to hit you...hard" but there is so much more to it than meets the eye. And it has been my experience that it is not a whole lot different with a lot of styles.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. ~Albert Einstein

 

[Xinglu]

I love me some simplicity.

Now that I have butchered the english language thoroughly, let me explain myself.

There is nothing wrong with complexity, one movement may have many application depending on slight modifications. This is a simple yet complex paradox. Many great fighters only master a few movements and they develop those movements to suit them in a variety of situations. Strategy may be complex, but your tactics should always limit complications. Like you, I firmly believe that if your tactics are complicated then there are many places that things can go wrong and then your entire strategy becomes ineffective. I have personally seen novice students defeat far more "advanced" students because they adhered to the KISS doctrine.

With that said, I assert that it is import to know the complicated stuff. Why? If for no other reason than to recognize them if they are ever employed against you.

 

[Xinglu]

Additionally, The simplest of movements IMHO, can be the most complex because they offer you a wide variety of applications. Whereas complex series of movements often cannot adapt to a variety of situations.

 

[Ken Morgan]

You can't get anymore simplier than iaido. Draw, cut, kill.

 

[Xinglu]

You can't get anymore simplier than iaido. Draw, cut, kill.

Miyamoto Musashi, probably one of the greatest swordsman to ever live preached the power of simplicity in tactics.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Miyamoto Musashi, probably one of the greatest swordsman to ever live preached the power of simplicity in tactics.

Yep. Which is why the "youtube" crowd is frustrating with all the baton-sword twirling that goes on.

Draw your sword and kill the enemy. No flash, no gimicks, just boring efficient techniques.

 

[seasoned]

All I can say is Xingyiquan looks so simple and direct, what can be more simple than a philosophy of "I’m going to hit you...hard" but there is so much more to it than meets the eye. And it has been my experience that it is not a whole lot different with a lot of styles.

Very true statement. As it is with any sport actually. The secret is, and always has been, principles, hard work, and much practice.

 

[K-man]

The more I learn, the less I hope to use. What I have learnt from aikido is, "enter with irimi, hit with kokyu". At that level, the technique is irrelevent. The same principle applies to any martial art and IMHO is the ultimate for all MAs. :asian:

 

[ppko]

One simple acronym. K.I.S.S

 

[ChingChuan]

However, is what you call 'simple' really simple? A simple technique - like a fist strike - might take years to perfect... A really advanged practicioner of any art might let it look really simple to take someone down with only a few techniques - but is it really that simple? It's not only about the proper technique, it's also about timing etc. etc...

Also, techniques that look really complex for an outsider might actually be very simple when you know the proper application. Pencak Silat looks quite complex and it seems as though we use many 'fancy' moves but when you know what it's for, it seems less complex and more effective.

Perhaps it's a bit the same as my allergy for people who call themselves perpetual white belts while they're an Xth Dan - but I think that perhaps it's wise to give your arts a bit more credit . Most techniques are not 'simple' - they only are after lots of hard training. You only need to think of yourself as a beginner to understand that.

 

[morph4me]

However, is what you call 'simple' really simple? A simple technique - like a fist strike - might take years to perfect... A really advanged practicioner of any art might let it look really simple to take someone down with only a few techniques - but is it really that simple? It's not only about the proper technique, it's also about timing etc. etc...

Also, techniques that look really complex for an outsider might actually be very simple when you know the proper application. Pencak Silat looks quite complex and it seems as though we use many 'fancy' moves but when you know what it's for, it seems less complex and more effective.

Perhaps it's a bit the same as my allergy for people who call themselves perpetual white belts while they're an Xth Dan - but I think that perhaps it's wise to give your arts a bit more credit . Most techniques are not 'simple' - they only are after lots of hard training. You only need to think of yourself as a beginner to understand that.

Nobody ever said the simple stuff was easy .

It takes a lot of work to make the simple stuff easy.
Most of the principles in any of the martial arts are very simple, but it takes alot of work to apply them easily.

 

[MJS]

The two martial arts I practice have training methods that can seem pretty complex, but in application, they always seek the simplest, most direct solution. On the other hand, I'm always amazed at some of the intricate and complicated self-defense sequences favored by some other martial arts.

Clearly, there are two schools of thought about this. In some arts, the better you get, the simpler and more streamlined your actions become. In others, the more advanced a practitioner is, the more elaborate and difficult the techniques he favors. Personally, I'm resigned to the fact that no amount of training will ever keep me from being a bit of a klutz. So, ever mindful of "Murphy's Law", I always favor the simplest solutions and I cringe when I see some the fancy stuff people demonstrate. But that's just me. How do the rest of you feel?

I've often wondered the same thing myself. We see many complex things during our training, and yes, those things are teaching us ideas, concepts, etc., but in the end, we do toss those complex things to the side in favor of more simple things.

There are techs. in Kenpo that are just so long, doing them to their full extent would require you to move at light speed. So what do we do? We use parts of that same tech.

I suppose this brings up the question: If we end up using simple things in the end, why not just train in a way, in which those same ideas that come from the complex technique, but do them in a more simpler fashion? Would we not attain the same result quicker?

 

[prokarateshop]

One simple acronym. K.I.S.S

I love the kISS principle, generally in S.D. you want to stay as simple as possible, simple movements save very complicated lives.

In many self defense situations, one does not have time to complete a really complicated motion. It becomes a waste of a movement.

 

[geezer]

I suppose this brings up the question: If we end up using simple things in the end, why not just train in a way, in which those same ideas that come from the complex technique, but do them in a more simpler fashion? Would we not attain the same result quicker?

Yes, this is exactly the question. I think most experienced martial artists agree that simple, efficient and highly refined techniques delivered with speed, power, and timing are what get the job done. So how do you train to get to that point? Do you work through more complicated sequences and then whittle it down to that final "sharp" efficiency? Or do you train with using a very spare or minimalist approach all along?

I suspect what really matters is keeping your eventual goal in mind. Then these become two different paths to the same place. In that case, you have to follow the path that suits you. The trick is not to get sidetracked and lost along the way.

 

[Xue Sheng]

One more though on this Simplicity vs Complexity thing

We train complexity until we see the simplicity

 

[Xinglu]

One more though on this Simplicity vs Complexity thing

We train complexity until we see the simplicity

Likewise, we train the simplicity until we see the complexity. There is yin in every yang and yang in every yin

 

[Xinglu]

Do you work through more complicated sequences and then whittle it down to that final "sharp" efficiency? Or do you train with using a very spare or minimalist approach all along?

Yes. When your art teaches the complex it is important to train through it and find what works for you. But you can only do this if you have a "spartan" approach to begin with. Take what works for you, and refine it into a high percentage technique. What works for you won't for others and vice versa.

I suspect what really matters is keeping your eventual goal in mind. Then these become two different paths to the same place. In that case, you have to follow the path that suits you. The trick is not to get sidetracked and lost along the way.

Pretty much, yet, you'd be surprised by how many MAists out there do not have a clearly defined approach/mindset to training.