Silk reeling is used in Chinese wrestling all over the place. SC guys just don't talk about it.
I like what he can do in this video.
I like what he can do in this video.
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Silk Reeling Demo (A)
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Then, silk reeling is used in American wrestling, BJJ, judo, sambo all over the place. American wrestling, BJJ, judo, sambo guys just don't talk about it.
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Correct. This is why I picked Jake. I knew that there would be flaws that are easy to see. I saw in that video the things that I was often corrected on. I also know that those same things are not important for those who do "Tai chi for health." and as a result, will often be omitted or not taught at all.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
vertical circles, from the root. Beyond that I am not sure what to say. Question is, is silk reeling necessary in Wing Chun.
This is why I dislike/hate the tern "internal" so much. Some IMA people have said, "Those are all good skill but not internal".
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A: Those are all good skill but not internal.
B: Cool, awesome [honestly]. Can you show me one sparring or fight video of "internal" skill which is different from external?
I have not seen any IMAist sparring or fight that shows "internal" skill (or effects of) yet. For example from Chen taiji: Han Feilong, Chen Ziqiang vs Zhang Yanfei, Wang Yan (article, "An interview with Wang Yan, head coach of the Chenjiagou Taijiquan School,"), Zhang Yun (Tai Chi School of Master Wang Zhanjun) or Sun Yang.
A:
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Oily Dragon
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Snakes, cranes, and dragons don't need to reel silk. They do it all by themselves!
And all three know how to fight better than most humans.
Oily Dragon
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It serves no purpose to hate the terms. They will never go away.
But knowing the history makes you very popular at kung fu parties.
The Tai Chi crowd loves to call Shaolin "external" not realizing how wrong they are. Shaolin Si was a hub of Daoist physical training before any living Tai Chi lineage got their act together and started recording their methods.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Which is why I asked if it is important to Wing Chun. Never heard silk reeling discussed in Wing Chun, for that matter never heard it discussed in anything much outside of Taijiquan
Oily Dragon
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As I understand, the chan si is gong just a more modern name for some of the same Neigong concepts in the Yijin jing and other older sets, but with a fancier modern name, and because it's Tai chi, it's done reeeaaally sloooooooowly.
As opposed to other neigong, which is just usually done slowly.
Alot of the Wing Chun early forms are taught in the same way to beginners, nice and slow, the wrapping movments etc, which are identical to other southern CMA Neigong asspciated with Snake and Dragon. Later on tension gets introduced as skill increases. Your mileage may vary...
Iron Wire Neigong (which is practically baked into Wing Chun) and Silk Reeling are cousins of a sort. They are short sets but if I rushed any single part, sifu would get bothered and "noooooo" me. I do really enjoy both, iron with a bit more dynamic tension, and silk reeling with as little as possible. I use weighted rings when doing both, something my southern Weijia teachers would go "mm, good" and most modern Tai chi dudes would probably go "what the hella are you doing", but old masters would go "mm, good".
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You use
Using iron rings for silk reeling is probably incorrect. Source: I'm an old master ;-)
Using iron rings for silk reeling is probably incorrect. Source: I'm an old master ;-)
Oily Dragon
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For me it's an effortless thing, 5 bronze rings on each arm is nothing. About 20 lbs per limb. Sometimes I also add weights to my feet. Every now and then when it's not too hot, a whole vest.
Keep in mind I learned these skills over many years from Southern Mantis, Tai Chi, Hung Ga Shaolin, and other very skilled teachers.
In the deepest history of Tai Chi Chuan you will find many physical strength training exercises. Put another way, Tai Chi Chuan is not limited to just your body. It's OK to use tools to enhance the practice.
And this is not a rub against TCC, but many modern practitioners are weak, physically. Limber, sure, but not strong, as in the namesake of Tai Chi Chuan.
Like the the two students in the OP video. Tai Chi students tend towards push hands competition, but not San Shou/Lei Tai for that reason. But it doesn't have to be that way. I once had a sort of sniffle with another member of this site who declared "Tai Chi is DEAD" for this reason. But to me it's a very alive art. AS in combat alive.
Please don't take this as criticism of your video. But that was my first impression.
I've seen what they call nowadays "Park Tai Chi" for several decades. For me, that is not the way, until it is all I have left.
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Oily Dragon
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Haahhahahhah, you made me think of this movie, Appledog. You're the best.
Born Invincible (太极气功), 1978. This is exactly how I practice kung fu.
"He who would attack the Tai Chi Kung Fu, must expect to die".
Born Invincible (太极气功), 1978. This is exactly how I practice kung fu.
"He who would attack the Tai Chi Kung Fu, must expect to die".
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OMG that is the best move ever made... i'm in awe
I suppose you are right about weights, but only with the guidance of your teacher. Wang Ziping was very heavily into weightlifting for kungfu and tai chi. But today people tend to avoid weight training in martial arts classes. I do weights occasionally but I don't mix the training directly. We do have special kinds of weight training in our system though. For example we have a move called "phoenix spreads wings" that used to be done with "stone locks" (like kettlebells) but today we just do the move without the bells.
I think it is at least important to pass the information down like this, even if you don't train it with weights, so that people could go back to the old ways if they wanted to or needed to.
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I once trained with a guy from Tianjian who trained taijiquan with ankle weights and wrist weights, but then he also trained Long Fist that way too
A: My Taiji system is superior because it has silk reeling.
B: My long fist system has silk reeling too.
C: My Karate system has silk reeling too.
D: My boxing system has silk reeling too.
E: My MMA system has silk reeling too.
F: ...
I have a feeling that if Taiji has never mentioned this term, people may not care about it. Body or body parts rotation, is that just common sense?
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
In 30 years of Taijiquan I have never heard anyone say, or talk about....
Most simply talk about silk reeling training and I heard much more of that in Chen and some in Wu.... My shifu (Yang style) never talked about it, beyond me asking about it and him saying "it is all in the form" As for Wu/Hao, I have no idea and I am to noew to Sun to know, but I can say I have never heard it discussed in Sun
Also never heard it discussed, or even mentioned in, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang or Wing Chun.
It is simply a training method, nothing to do with superiority.
And I find it highly unlikely you would hear or talk about it in Karate, boxing or MMA and I can tell you for a fact it wad not at all a part or the Sanda I trained.
Oily Dragon
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We've hit on something that I consider a big missing part of many Kung fu schools. Maybe this is one of modern Tai Chis "missing links".
When I first starting learning, first sifu kept a whole closet of exotic training devices. Iron palm bags, sand jars, a lot of different things with rope. When I learned Tai Chi, same thing. Lots of neat little training gadgets, sticks, balls, and more rope.
So I can't really imagine what it's like to train any kung fu style with just my own body, and whenever I check out classic kung fu cinema (which is a really good source for a lot of styles) you see it all the time. Sure lots of empty hand fist sets, but often a lot of training devices too. 36th Chamber..has literally 35 rooms of such things.
We talked about plum flower poles a while ago. You can do stancework in your living room, gym, or the street pretty easy, and get great. Then try it on an elevated platform and fall on your butt fast.
Somewhere, long ago, I was reading some research on how Tai Chi was shown to help people live longer simply through balance training (and then avoiding falls, broken hips, etc).
That was when I started training Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg and similar Crane technique with a kettlebell on my foot. Very effective.
windwalker099
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Consider this:
When training "intent," the focus should be on feeling one's center of balance and disrupting the opponent's. However, using weights or objects like bricks can inadvertently shift the focus away from this central goal.
In Taiwan, a teacher I knew used to have his students put toothpicks in the fold between the elbow and forearm to maintain a slight fold during push hands training. While this helped with the physical aspect, it unintentionally hindered their intent, as the focus shifted to keeping the toothpick in place, just as using any type of weight held during the solo practice would...
Silk reeling and pulling have specific purposes within Taiji communities and should be done with these goals in mind.
When training "intent," the focus should be on feeling one's center of balance and disrupting the opponent's. However, using weights or objects like bricks can inadvertently shift the focus away from this central goal.
In Taiwan, a teacher I knew used to have his students put toothpicks in the fold between the elbow and forearm to maintain a slight fold during push hands training. While this helped with the physical aspect, it unintentionally hindered their intent, as the focus shifted to keeping the toothpick in place, just as using any type of weight held during the solo practice would...
Silk reeling and pulling have specific purposes within Taiji communities and should be done with these goals in mind.
