Showing It All

[MJS]

While reading thru some of the various posts on here, I've noticed some who seem to wonder why our teachers don't show everything to us, why they leave some things 'hidden' rather than just come right out and give us all of the 'secrets.'

Now, IMHO, I'd rather have my teacher make me think for myself, rather than just saying, "Here ya go Mike! I'm showing it all to you so you don't have to do any legwork. I've done it all for you!"

That is part of the journey, especially the Black Belt journey....being able to reach a point, which you think is the end, but realize that there is so much more to learn. I've been training now for 22yrs. and I'm still learning things. Imagine if the learning stopped? Imagine if there was nothing more to do than just sit back and work on what you have, rather than really looking into what you already know, breaking it down further, seeing what else you may have 'missed' but found on your own, without your teacher?

To me, that is much more of a reward, a personal goal, than having someone just hand it to me.

Mike

 

[terryl965]

While reading thru some of the various posts on here, I've noticed some who seem to wonder why our teachers don't show everything to us, why they leave some things 'hidden' rather than just come right out and give us all of the 'secrets.'

Now, IMHO, I'd rather have my teacher make me think for myself, rather than just saying, "Here ya go Mike! I'm showing it all to you so you don't have to do any legwork. I've done it all for you!"

That is part of the journey, especially the Black Belt journey....being able to reach a point, which you think is the end, but realize that there is so much more to learn. I've been training now for 22yrs. and I'm still learning things. Imagine if the learning stopped? Imagine if there was nothing more to do than just sit back and work on what you have, rather than really looking into what you already know, breaking it down further, seeing what else you may have 'missed' but found on your own, without your teacher?

To me, that is much more of a reward, a personal goal, than having someone just hand it to me.

Mike

Mike this is a great perspective. Cudos.

 

[MJS]

Mike this is a great perspective. Cudos.

Thanks Terry! :ultracool

What are your views on this? What method do you use when you teach your students or when you're working with your teacher?

 

[terryl965]

Thanks Terry! :ultracool

What are your views on this? What method do you use when you teach your students or when you're working with your teacher?

My views are simple to teach what they can handle at that time, they must first and foremost understand every aspect of the tech. beefore I move on o the next one with them. Also it is good to hold back certain thing until you get to know them and the characture, I.E. if they can handle being put in a position with the techs. being tought. I mean if you cannot teach someone a choke hold if they are to immature and everytime they do something they try to kill there opponet.

My classes are starting but I will come back with the rest of my views.
As always thanks for asking.

Great subject can't wait to hear other people views on this.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think it is always important for any teacher to teach in a way
that encourages the student to do critical thinking. This then
allows them to have an opportunity to grow and that is what
we are striving for them to do.

 

[MJS]

I think it is always important for any teacher to teach in a way
that encourages the student to do critical thinking. This then
allows them to have an opportunity to grow and that is what
we are striving for them to do.

I couldn't agree more Brian.

 

[MattJ]

Hi Mike. I think that you are right and wrong at the same time. [/waffle]

Class is for the express purpose of exposure, IMHO. This is where the teacher should reasonably be "pointing the way" or "openning the doors", etc. Now from THAT point, it is the student's job to walk the path or go through the door. The student will have to do some critical thinking along the way in order to make functional (or understandable) what the teacher has showed. But if the teacher is with-holding stuff from the get-go.......?

I do not agree with that methodology myself.

 

[tellner]

I think it is always important for any teacher to teach in a way
that encourages the student to do critical thinking. This then
allows them to have an opportunity to grow and that is what
we are striving for them to do.

You're mostly spot on, Brian. But there is a couple corners that need some light shined on them.

First, teachers may be actively holding back. Lots of martial arts have become worthless because the teacher only gave 80% of what he knew. Three or four generations of that, and you're left with crap. I see this happening right now with an excellent instructor. He only thoroughly taught one or two students, and that was a while ago. His current seniors are given a very different program and not even allowed to teach the mother art.

Second, the teacher might not have that much to begin with and wants to conceal the fact.

 

[MJS]

Hi Mike. I think that you are right and wrong at the same time. [/waffle]

Class is for the express purpose of exposure, IMHO. This is where the teacher should reasonably be "pointing the way" or "openning the doors", etc. Now from THAT point, it is the student's job to walk the path or go through the door. The student will have to do some critical thinking along the way in order to make functional (or understandable) what the teacher has showed. But if the teacher is with-holding stuff from the get-go.......?

I do not agree with that methodology myself.

Oh I agree. I'm probably going to end up kicking myself for bringing up kata again..lol..but here goes. As an example, when teaching a kata, an instructor should not only teach the student the kata, but also show at least one application for the moves. Now, I am sure there're people who can come up with many more than that, but my point is, the student should take that one application, and during training time, come up with another variation.

In a sense the teacher is teaching, but while he may be considered 'holding back' in reality, he's helping the student to think for him/her self.

 

[MattJ]

Quote by MJS -

As an example, when teaching a kata, an instructor should not only teach the student the kata, but also show at least one application for the moves. Now, I am sure there're people who can come up with many more than that, but my point is, the student should take that one application, and during training time, come up with another variation.

OK! Then we are on the same page. Waffling works, people! :ninja:

 

[tshadowchaser]

I will explain a technique, for example, an arm bar by saying :
step to the outside , do a middle block , grab the wrist while placing pressure on or hitting the elbow. Then I will do the technique. What I may not explain the sliding of the blocking hand to the wrist or the turning of their wrist so the elbow is in proper place for the strike, or how the lower half of my body is doing things to their body as i am doing the technique. I may also not explain the angle of the block/strike on the elbow. Those that have studied with me long enough or know me well realizes that i leave much out of my verbal explanation and I expect student to be able to find those things i leave out.

 

[still learning]

Hello, When we teach our "soldiers" to fight in a war? ...should it take 22 years?

Wouldn't it be wise to share the full knowledge of the "KATA" it's purpose to all your students. Instead of saying...kata's has hidden meaning...it is your destiny to find them...(years and years later) ...than you are too old for it to do any good?

Martial arts...is a learning process...many things takes time to master....KNOWLEDGE...should be share from the beginning "NOT HIDDEN"

Example: this part of the Kata shows a kick....this can also be different kinds of kick or can be kicking different tarkets? ....rather than saying...this part is a Hidden technique you must find out for yourself....?

"X" Block ?....many people refuse to believe it is an block...but a hidden technique instead....yet "Funikoshi" shows it to be a block ONLY! Why? would Gichin? ...make it a hidden technique? to his students?

Any martial artist...hides things from their students....for what ever reasons...is only short changing their own people....

Even our peewees...we explain what those techniques are in their Kata's....We also teach them the dangers too! ...kids also need to know the dangers of guns and knives too!

Martial arts has 3 major levels in our system....escape (first choice) many techniques to use to break a way. 2. control methods, mostly joint locks,hits..strikes,kicks,to get to this part. 3. Destroy methods...to end the confrontation...or stop the attacker....

Why would anyone NOT teach the full knowledge and have hidden techniques? ...OK the crooks..the bad guys...the enemy? ..terrorist?

Police, Security, guards,FBI, CIA, etc...soldiers and martial art students ...should not be told of these "hidden" moves? ....how would one learn to defend against it?

Look at what is being said: Kata has hidden meanings? ....It is not talking about secrets? .....it is just saying...each part can be change to be something else............

The only mystery in the martial arts, is those who make it so............Aloha ( Hawaii has many "hidden" beauties.....many take a life time to find them?) NOT!

The open "palm" ...has many secret strikes..including the "slap" ..sssshhhh....don't tell anyone especially your students....if they find out? ...use the slap?

 

[tshadowchaser]

in answere to the fist line of the previous postby still learning:

when I teach milatary and or law enforcement I teach them how to do it fast and deadly if nessacary and I leave out nothing that could save their lives. When I teach the avarage student they are just that a student and they need to lean basics and concepts befor getting to technical

 

[MJS]

Just for the record here folks...Please, I do not want this thread to turn into yet another discussion on kata! Using the search function will yield some great results. When I started this thread it was intended to discuss ALL aspects of the arts, NOT just kata!

Thank you!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Hello, When we teach our "soldiers" to fight in a war? ...should it take 22 years?

Wouldn't it be wise to share the full knowledge of the "KATA" it's purpose to all your students. Instead of saying...kata's has hidden meaning...it is your destiny to find them...(years and years later) ...than you are too old for it to do any good?

Martial arts...is a learning process...many things takes time to master....KNOWLEDGE...should be share from the beginning "NOT HIDDEN"

Example: this part of the Kata shows a kick....this can also be different kinds of kick or can be kicking different tarkets? ....rather than saying...this part is a Hidden technique you must find out for yourself....?

"X" Block ?....many people refuse to believe it is an block...but a hidden technique instead....yet "Funikoshi" shows it to be a block ONLY! Why? would Gichin? ...make it a hidden technique? to his students?

Any martial artist...hides things from their students....for what ever reasons...is only short changing their own people....

Even our peewees...we explain what those techniques are in their Kata's....We also teach them the dangers too! ...kids also need to know the dangers of guns and knives too!

Martial arts has 3 major levels in our system....escape (first choice) many techniques to use to break a way. 2. control methods, mostly joint locks,hits..strikes,kicks,to get to this part. 3. Destroy methods...to end the confrontation...or stop the attacker....

Why would anyone NOT teach the full knowledge and have hidden techniques? ...OK the crooks..the bad guys...the enemy? ..terrorist?

Police, Security, guards,FBI, CIA, etc...soldiers and martial art students ...should not be told of these "hidden" moves? ....how would one learn to defend against it?

Look at what is being said: Kata has hidden meanings? ....It is not talking about secrets? .....it is just saying...each part can be change to be something else............

The only mystery in the martial arts, is those who make it so............Aloha ( Hawaii has many "hidden" beauties.....many take a life time to find them?) NOT!

The open "palm" ...has many secret strikes..including the "slap" ..sssshhhh....don't tell anyone especially your students....if they find out? ...use the slap?

Still learning...there are already threads on kata and the use of the X block. If you want to discuss those subject please go there. This thread is intended to speak of the other aspects of the arts, not just kata.

Back to the subject at hand...I think you need to re-read what I have already said! I'm not saying don't show people anything, I'm simply saying that everything, the whole package, should not be handed to the student, without them having to do anything on their own.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Hmm...I'll use another example. We teach students how to block, punch, kick, and move. We teach them techniques for preset attacks, such as punches, grabs, kicks and chokes. However, those techniques are not the end all, be all defense, for those attacks.

I'd run a technique line. I'd call out the attack, and the defender would attempt his defense. There were times when I'd call out an attack to a lower belt. They'd look at me with a blank look at say, "But I don't know a defense for this. I havent been taught that yet." I'd ask them if they knew how to block, punch and kick. They would say yes. My reply was, "Then do it!" I wasn't looking for them to do a preset self defense technique, I was looking for them to respond to what was presented to them at that time! I wanted them to start thinking for themselves. I'm not going to be with them 24/7, so what happens if they get attacked in the real world? Are they just going to stand there or are they going to defend themselves? I want to make damn sure that they can defend themselves, and that is going to require them to think for themselves.

After I told them to do something, that is exactly what they did. They thought for themselves, and created their own technique. They had all the tools, they just need to start learning how to use them.

When we take a technique out of the 'ideal phase' and the attacker throws a random attack, or throws an extra strike, you need to think, you need to react. This is something that the student needs to learn how to do, considering that in the real world, there is nothing scripted. Imagine if we tried to teach someone a response to every single attack out there? Physically impossible! Like I said..we have the tools..now its up to us to put them together.

Mike

 

[Drac]

Just for the record here folks...Please, I do not want this thread to turn into yet another discussion on kata! Using the search function will yield some great results. When I started this thread it was intended to discuss ALL aspects of the arts, NOT just kata!

Thank you!

Mike

What he said...

 

[newGuy12]

Okay, I am sucked in now, I feel a compulsion to run my mouth!

Hello, When we teach our "soldiers" to fight in a war? ...should it take 22 years?

No, it should not, I totally agree, and this is probably the most profound thing I will read all weekend, thank you!

Martial arts...is a learning process...many things takes time to master....KNOWLEDGE...should be share from the beginning "NOT HIDDEN"

Now, I wish to say two things:

First, when I practiced American Kenpo, it was taught to me that there is more than meets the eye. Why not teach it all at once? Well, consider this. Consider that a student wishes to learn physics.

She goes first to an overview class. She studies Newton's Laws, Kepler's Laws of Motion, Maxwell's
Equations, all in simplified form, in algebraic form.

Next year, she takes three classes, Electodynamics, Classical Mechanics, Astronomy. She sees the same things that she already learned again, but, this time, the equations are all Calculus based. She can integrate over some domain to get the result of an equation. She also takes laboratory classes to see for herself the scientific method and to practice it.

Finally, our student now goes to another city to study with new teachers, because she is now a graduate student. Here, she studies yet again the same thing, but this time, oh, my, my! Now, they are throwing in all manner of vector fields, gradients, scalars, all kinds of theories. Each friday she goes to a colloquim to hear a visiting professor talk about the research that he is doing (after 30 minutes everyone is dozing, but she still gets the "idea").

Now, why was she not exposed to the whole shebang from the "get-go"?

We know why. Because she would not have understood it. She would have been overwhelmed, and then cussed the faculty and stormed off campus, never to return! It would be too much.

Its the same thing with some Martial Arts. The teacher teaches the curriculum, which lays down a base of knowledge. That's why these techniques comprise what is said to be BASICS. Upon these, then, more principles can be taught.

Secondly,

Again, I will say it. Majic died off. Science prevailed! Why is that? Because scientists did NOT keep knowledge secret. They published it, shared it, took it further.

That is why all of the "secret methods" only taught to a few will die off. They are doomed. And I, for one, will not despair over their demise. Life is too short to chase after some teaching, years upon years, trying to prove yourself worthy.

And, nowadays, it is coming to the point where its not necessary to do that. Which is a good thing.

But, you see, you cannot overload the student with too much knowledge at the beginning, or they will curse you and storm out of the school!!! It is too bewildering!

 

[newGuy12]

There were times when I'd call out an attack to a lower belt. They'd look at me with a blank look at say, "But I don't know a defense for this. I havent been taught that yet." I'd ask them if they knew how to block, punch and kick. They would say yes. My reply was, "Then do it!"

I was involved in an Okinawan Kempo club once, and this happened. We did not know what to do.

The Instructor nearly came unglued!

Needless to say, we knew from then on, to NOT do nothing. Always do SOMETHING! Don't just stand there, ever!

 

[MJS]

Okay, I am sucked in now, I feel a compulsion to run my mouth!



No, it should not, I totally agree, and this is probably the most profound thing I will read all weekend, thank you!



Now, I wish to say two things:

First, when I practiced American Kenpo, it was taught to me that there is more than meets the eye. Why not teach it all at once? Well, consider this. Consider that a student wishes to learn physics.

She goes first to an overview class. She studies Newton's Laws, Kepler's Laws of Motion, Maxwell's
Equations, all in simplified form, in algebraic form.

Next year, she takes three classes, Electodynamics, Classical Mechanics, Astronomy. She sees the same things that she already learned again, but, this time, the equations are all Calculus based. She can integrate over some domain to get the result of an equation. She also takes laboratory classes to see for herself the scientific method and to practice it.

Finally, our student now goes to another city to study with new teachers, because she is now a graduate student. Here, she studies yet again the same thing, but this time, oh, my, my! Now, they are throwing in all manner of vector fields, gradients, scalars, all kinds of theories. Each friday she goes to a colloquim to hear a visiting professor talk about the research that he is doing (after 30 minutes everyone is dozing, but she still gets the "idea").

Now, why was she not exposed to the whole shebang from the "get-go"?

We know why. Because she would not have understood it. She would have been overwhelmed, and then cussed the faculty and stormed off campus, never to return! It would be too much.

Its the same thing with some Martial Arts. The teacher teaches the curriculum, which lays down a base of knowledge. That's why these techniques comprise what is said to be BASICS. Upon these, then, more principles can be taught.

Secondly,

Again, I will say it. Majic died off. Science prevailed! Why is that? Because scientists did NOT keep knowledge secret. They published it, shared it, took it further.

That is why all of the "secret methods" only taught to a few will die off. They are doomed. And I, for one, will not despair over their demise. Life is too short to chase after some teaching, years upon years, trying to prove yourself worthy.

And, nowadays, it is coming to the point where its not necessary to do that. Which is a good thing.

But, you see, you cannot overload the student with too much knowledge at the beginning, or they will curse you and storm out of the school!!! It is too bewildering!

Very well said!

I was involved in an Okinawan Kempo club once, and this happened. We did not know what to do.

The Instructor nearly came unglued!

Needless to say, we knew from then on, to NOT do nothing. Always do SOMETHING! Don't just stand there, ever!

Exactly! I'd rather have them block and move, than stand there and get hit. When the poop hits the fan, chances are, when we see that punch coming at our head, we should not be thinking, "Hmm..ok, right punch...lets see, I have Attacking Mace, Thundering Hammers, Shield and Mace to pick from. Which am I going to use? Hmmmm" No, instead, we need to react. I need to be able to use those techs. as a foundation and build from there.

I don't know...maybe I was just taught differently, but I just can't see going from white to black, and having every little thing handed to me, explained to me, without having to do any thinking for myself.