Shotokan to Kenpo

[teej]

Anyone have any advice on teaching an adult, previous Shotokan student, Kenpo?

This indiviual has a very strong Shotokan base. This person is having an extremely hard time moving their arms in circles. Especially moving both in circular motions at the same time. Trying to do this while moving their feet is currently a disaster.

This person has only been studying Kenpo for 2-3 months and I think may be on the verge of quitting. I truely believe this person can do this and be a very good Kenpo practioner if will hang in there.

Any advice, drill suggestions, or plan of action would be greatly appreciated.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej

 

[bzarnett]

What movements are they working on specifically? Are they moving too fast? Are they an individual that learns by tactile response?

 

[teej]

Example, a minor inward block followed by an major outward block.

At this time, this student cannot do an inward block while moving the other arm across the body to do an outward block. To do this, my student completes a very hard inward block while keeping the other arm chambered, then after completing the inward block, starts moving the arm to do the outward block. And it appears that my student is mental thinking, "inward block, outward block". Can't move both arms at once. Has to do one, then the other.

Thanks, Teej

 

[Ceicei]

Slow down a bit. Don't try too many things at once. It takes time to mentally transition over to a different style. He will still retain his Shotokan tendencies. Focus on a skill one at a time at first. He will eventually pick up faster and do more once he finally gets the feel of Kenpo.

If you want him to focus on circular motion, practice circular on a free standing bag or a partner until he gets the concept and feel of it. It will help him feel he has accomplished something instead of overwhelming him to quit.

Ask if he likes/prefers learning by sound (verbal instructions), sight (demonstrating), feel (technique done on body) or a combination?

Work with him.

- Ceicei

 

[distalero]

Example, a minor inward block followed by an major outward block.

At this time, this student cannot do an inward block while moving the other arm across the body to do an outward block. To do this, my student completes a very hard inward block while keeping the other arm chambered, then after completing the inward block, starts moving the arm to do the outward block. And it appears that my student is mental thinking, "inward block, outward block". Can't move both arms at once. Has to do one, then the other.

Thanks, Teej

If he is breaking it down into the two component blocks, then have him do the minor inward only, continously circling lightly with no power or focus, for a series of cycles, and as he is doing this, take the major hand and cycle it yourself at the right moment to complete the block. He concentrates on the minor block, you concentrate on the major. Do this whole maneuver enough times until he "gets" it via initial muscle memory. I won't take long.

 

[Drifter]

If there's anyone else at your school that has Shotokan experience, maybe they could relate it to him better. Explain the concept of double factors (that sounds like what you're doing) to him, and maybe create a simple technique or two to get that specifically across to him, and to get him into that mindset.

 

[distalero]

If he is breaking it down into the two component blocks, then have him do the minor inward only, continously circling lightly with no power or focus, for a series of cycles, and as he is doing this, take the major hand and cycle it yourself at the right moment to complete the block. He concentrates on the minor block, you concentrate on the major. Do this whole maneuver enough times until he "gets" it via initial muscle memory. I won't take long.

Oops, I meant to say in the last sentence "IT won't take long." The only time I've actually meant to say "I" won't take long is when I'm discussin' my romance skills.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Anyone have any advice on teaching an adult, previous Shotokan student, Kenpo?

Be patient with him. We have one shotokan black belt and in the end the instructor decided it would be better for all to introduce flowing slowly. After one year of training you can still see where he comes from. But at least he's now able to hit more than once in the same technique flow.

Don't try to make him a kenpo stylist of him so soon. Begin to introduce the kenpo a bit at a time and blend it into his shotokan.

 

[MJS]

You have had some excellent advice here! Yes, any time you have someone transition to a new school, it'll be hard to change something that they may have been doing for 5 yrs. and have them start something new. Don't try to convert him overnight, as it will not happen.

I would suggest starting with the basics. Yes, I'm sure he knows blocking and punching and kicking, but he will be doing it the first way he learned it. There is alot of co-ordination in Kenpo and it'll take him time to learn this. One thing that may be a help would be to stand in front of him and do the moves, so that he can mirror you. I've done that for people while doing blocks, kicks and techs. and it worked for me.

As for him getting frustrated...he has only been at your school for 3 months. Of course hes going to be frustrated and he should realize this. Learning an art is certainly not an overnight process. I suggest sitting down with him and your inst. privately, and addressing his needs/concerns. He appears to love the arts, but he also needs to be encouraged to keep going, as hard as it may be, and not give up.

You may also suggest a private lesson. Its hard in a large group setting, especially if you're a new student. Also, having him come in a few min. early or stay a few min. late to work with him, may be a help.

Please let us know how things work out.

Mike

 

[kenpoworks]

You may be able to learn a thing or two from the Shoto Kan student if approach the way he/she practices with an "open mind".
Respectfully
Rich
PS Shoto Kan was my first "style" and I am a still a little defensive about the way some Kenpoists ("NOT YOU") seem to write it off.

 

[bzarnett]

As Mike commented, a lot of good advice.

IMHO, I think the problem is not circular movements but synchronized movement. The key is slow moves and to pronounce a move. Have him work one side and then the other side - it will be mechanical but the idea is there. After a bunch of reps of this (10, 20, 50, 100, ???) have him slowly begin to do each side slowly but with flow. Do this for a number of reps. Then have him flow with the synchronized movements of both sides.

For example. If my blocking sequence is broken into three parts:
1) Right extended outward block
2) Right inward block
3) Left extended outward block

I would let him execute move 1 and then freeze. Then do move 2 and freeze. Finally do move three and freeze.

Step 2 would be to do step 1 and flow into step 2 slowly and with flow. Then do step 3. I'm putting back the dirty word "and" into the movements to help with training.

Step 3 would remove the "and" and replace it with "with" to get both hands working together.

I find that generally, students from other styles think a move is a move (at least sub-consciously) so they do it as fast as they can versus learning how to modify their existing movement through slow actions. I sometimes tell students to go Tai Chi slow in order to get the picture.

We have three core rules in our school:
1) If its not broken or bleeding don't say sorry.
2) Speed Kills in training.
3) Ask questions. Listen to the answers. Take notes!

Rule #2 might apply here.

 

[Rich_Hale]

Have this person get it touch with me. I'm a (long time) Kenpo black belt and currently a Shotokan white belt. I'm sure I can relate to what he is going through and can possibly work him through some of it.

 

[teej]

Hi all,

I just wanted to give you an update on my Shotokan students and my TaeKwonDo black belt.

They are all doing great. I keep stressing that I am adding to what they already know. I took all of your advice and applied it. My instructor reminded me that if you teach someone another language, they will have an accent.

I did have to ask my Shotokan students to stop practicing their Shotokan forms. They were practicing them almost every day. I don't want them t forget them, but their frequent practice kept taking them back to the way they were used to doing things and not how I need them to do things now.

The other thing that helped them was for me to demonstrate to them everything I am teaching them full strength and speed. They could not understand how economy of motion movements are strong and effective. So I demonstrate the techniques and forms full out.

I have them do everything slowly. Economy of motion is built into the techniques if and when taught properly, as well as in Kenpo forms. As pointed out, speed can kill kenpo. I stress with them that speed and power will come. The other important thing I do is always stress with them their progress. [granted you should do this will all students, but this is especially important with these students] Techniques such as 5 swords, teaches them how to flow. Doing it slowly in the air, it looks kind of flowery. Do it fast and hard on a body, they can see and hear [body blow thunks] the power in our techniques.

Granted, I am fortunate that these students have martial artist blood and they all practice at home. They are all making progress and have great attitudes. I am very pleased with the direction they are going and I thank all of you for your advice.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej

 

[evenflow1121]

Get him to understand continuity of motion, how to flow, and not to think in such a linear fashion. Nothing wrong with Shotokan by the way, its a great system, but its quite different from Kenpo. We had a shotokan guy in the studio I trained in, and it was hard for him to adjust at first because he was so used to stopping after every move, it took him a bit to get adjusted. As already stated its going to be a mental transition especially if he has been studying Shotokan for a long time.

 

[marlon]

Give him time... he will adapt. Discuss with him and demonstrate (full tilt ands slowly) the flow of your style. Also any continuous movement drill/2 person exercises done slow or at half speed will help him see. Continous sparring where no one is stopping b/c of tag...oh i mean a point scored often illustrates the need and time practice and your curricullum will do the rest


some thoughts

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[still learning]

Hello, My son and I have started in Shotokan Karate before our Sensi quit teaching. We both had to start over and the only school nearby that was starting up was Universal Kempo-karate.

Shotokan is very different. We really like the new stuff we were learning in Kempo.

Anytime you start in a new system you must first accept the new ways of doing things. It is like learning all over. This is something he must first accept and stop the Shotokan Kata's.

Remind him there is more than one way to punch and kick as well as defend.

He must relearn everything, if he is willing to change?

Sometimes you can't teach someone who is not willing change!........Aloha

 

[MMAfighter]

maybe just tell your son to focus more on the kenpo katas for the moment then do shotokan, i mean be like say do this and this kenpo kata 5 times then do your shotokan kata ya know something on those lines. Tell him to allow the kenpo into the shotokan only makes him better as a martial artist

 

[gmkuoha]

Over the years I have had to teach many students that were of black belts status from one system to the Kara-Ho Kempo System and one person in fact is our personal student and was a 3rd dan in Shotokan and joined our system several years ago and the first thing I did was teach him Ki Principles, over and over again till he learned to relax and focus and then I started to teach him Kempo and wow...the transistion was awesome. He is now one of our instructors and doing exceptionally well. He seems to have lost most of his hardness and direct movements from Shotokan. He, of course was also taking privates from me twice a week. If you like I will ask him what was the most change he did to gain the spirit of Kempo?
Grandmaster Kuoha