Shotokan for self defence.

[Tez3]

Full contact karate sparring isn't so different from boxing that the boxers will always win, it's about equal if you leave out those on either side who are very talented fighters.

 

[RafaChan]

You can't rely only on faith in what works for you when dealing with someone different. Doing so misses all the other elements that make a person reach their current place in their MA journey. Doing so moves us from martial art to religion.

In MAs theres a lot of paths out there and each of them constantly carved out of these faiths with their own bibles. It was always working that way, one faith will serve your reality better while other dont or you just simply can take the best part of manny and be more creative.

The student/searcher constantly will have to fill in the gaps a lot (ive said that before), he will have to adequate and even modificate accordingly to his own limits and realities (said that too). Its not that always you will happens to find a master or instructor that will be that sensible and that comprehensible to change his current faith of what hes teaching coz of one particular student...

My biggest trouble with Shoto's posts are that they are all faith and judgement, and like every good religious extremist they are based on taking a small part of the "faith" out of context and blowing it's importance way out of proportion. This then becomes the one true path and even others of the same group (in this case traditional karate) are just misguided fools for not following the one true way....

When he told about some fundamentals and raised the aspect of kime and mental resolution with his particular aproaches and how they could make the difference he pointed kinda exagerated i can agree, but that alone doesnt invalidate those. Unfortunelly not all aspects from the fundamentals can be in interchangeable so its really a matter of ''verifiable/workable faith'' regarding karate.

The articles you posted do not support you. They are descriptions of physical exercises for physical results. Your description sounds like meditation, at best. As I've said, the mind and the body are tied, you can't work on one without the other.

1. That doesn't make a physical practice mental.
2. This is in no way unique to Shotokan or karate in general.

The article totally supports me when it states that we have to be in control of our breath so we can affect our whole body and mind. Now on this sentence you say that mind and body are tied (wich i have made no objections) but earlier you still insisted that the act of breathing is only physical. While i have said in the post totally accordingly to the article that conscious breathing its either physical and mental.

If you have heard or even practiced any way of conscious breathing only in meditation practices sorry but your traditional karate its missing a big and phenomenal part. Mentally conscious breathing can be applied in a very dynamic way. Ill insist one last time... That ''faith'' its even science supported.

When bringing mindfulness (of the breath and body) you can achieve, to name a few:

Start to gain a bit more control of the stress response, more mental concentration and synchonization of the body accordingly to what are your skills, tactics and limits and the way you can best apply those fluidly and almost instinctively. The hint is: The mental using conscious breath affecting the endocrine system getting in more control of your adrenals to keep one s clarity of mind and add in more power to your physical techniques/strikes.

Traditional Shotokan as it is commonly taught is quite limited on strategy, largely because of the faith issue above. If you have absolute belief in your one hit knockout and your indomitable spirit, you have no room for curiosity about how to escape from multiple assailants or how to get off the ground when being kicked. Every SD situation gets reduced to, "make some distance then Gyaku Zuki to the face".

I have agreed on that since i came first posting, the heavily sports conditioning thing. But again, one hit ko mentality its valid and it exists, its aplicable and desirable in SD. Of course not training what to do next and next if the guy you hit just have the jaws/balls of steel its naive. The mentality its valid and quite important.

The last part of your post its the one i completely agree and in justice i will have to buy some time to work more on that...

 

[ShotoNoob]

then use the commonly understood UFC70 so everyone can understand you or carry on being misunderstood.

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Tez, I do not follow the UFC different fight designations / promotions. What I understand is that there is a "Fight Night" that the UFC promotes or distributes separately from the historical & continuing "Ultimate Fighting Championships" or "UFC" promotions.... So FN70 is the correct designation for the Machida / Romero Card. Why the UFC does that I really don't know. They also have a TUF Finale where the TUFF House UFC Contestant's battle it out. Again, some kind of separation.
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Maybe you could look into that for me, you being in the MMA scene....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Are you feeling alright?

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Fine. Not a ninja fine....
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EDIT: What'ydd think of RAFA's karate treatise...?

 

[ShotoNoob]

...My biggest trouble with Shoto's posts are that they are all faith and judgement, and like every good religious extremist they are based on taking a small part of the "faith" out of context and blowing it's importance way out of proportion. This then becomes the one true path and even others of the same group (in this case traditional karate) are just misguided fools for not following the one true way....

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This isn't what I've been saying or what Shotokan promotes at all. You don't understand Shotokan, you understand how to criticize Shotokan, which by the way will never be resolved on a blog...
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Moreover, you say you don't make judgements and then your statements are full of judgements--"religious extremist," "faith blowing out of context." They're's alot of practically minded SD authorities here but when it comes to Shotokan, you know the shell....
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Your mindset the religious one. I've been talking about the principles inherent in the traditional martial arts & referencing the Karate Master... Like principles exist in any discipline. Rant away....

The articles you posted do not support you. They are descriptions of physical exercises for physical results. Your description sounds like meditation, at best. As I've said, the mind and the body are tied, you can't work on one without the other.

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Right, you're not judgemental.... You mean the descriptions of of articles I posted ARE DESCRIPTIONS OF PHYSICAL EXERCISES FOR PHYSICAL RESULTS IN YOUR EYES.... aDD, and you are THE judge....
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Talk about meaningless generalization [read rhetoric]: "As I've said, the mind & body are tied, you can't work on one without the other."
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REALLY?

1. That doesn't make a physical practice mental.

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You're just stating a conclusion as a reason.... Isn't that what the religious zealot does....?

2. This is in no way unique to Shotokan or karate in general.

I
See above?

Traditional Shotokan as it is commonly taught is quite limited on strategy, largely because of the faith issue above. If you have absolute belief in your one hit knockout and your indomitable spirit, you have no room for curiosity about how to escape from multiple assailants or how to get off the ground when being kicked. Every SD situation gets reduced to, "make some distance then Gyaku Zuki to the face".

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You mean the narrow-mined and training shallowly, monkey-see-monkey-do in karate. And you're right, this kind of thinking isn't restricted to karate....

But this is an issue of culture, not style and is easily fixed by adopting appropriate training methods, including those that highlight the need for other approaches like scenario training

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I've spoken to just that, repeatedly....
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Good luck with that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

...The last part of your post its the one i completely agree and in justice i will have to buy some time to work more on that...

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Quote a clever showcase. I don't recall anyone here @ M. T. or myself saying Shotokan karate was THE KARATE, or THE MARTIAL ART.
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Carry on Rafa, forge karate ahead... it's really getting entertaining....
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EDIT: When I get up from ROTF, I'll put & post 2 of the important dimensions of this T together. Yes, there will be a YT vid, inc. posted by others..... including you RAFA-MAN.

 

[RTKDCMB]

What'ydd think of RAFA's karate treatise...?

You will have to be more specific.

 

[Tez3]

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Tez, I do not follow the UFC different fight designations / promotions. What I understand is that there is a "Fight Night" that the UFC promotes or distributes separately from the historical & continuing "Ultimate Fighting Championships" or "UFC" promotions.... So FN70 is the correct designation for the Machida / Romero Card. Why the UFC does that I really don't know. They also have a TUF Finale where the TUFF House UFC Contestant's battle it out. Again, some kind of separation.
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Maybe you could look into that for me, you being in the MMA scene....

Perhaps you could just use words, phrase and 'designation's everyone understands instead? 'FN' to Europeans is a Belgian arms manufacturer. If you say UFC Fight Night, that is understandable to everyone.

 

[Tez3]

This isn't what I've been saying or what Shotokan promotes at all. You don't understand Shotokan, you understand how to criticize Shotokan, which by the way will never be resolved on a blog...
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Moreover, you say you don't make judgements and then your statements are full of judgements--"religious extremist," "faith blowing out of context."

He's not criticising, he's explaining why he's right and he is you know, your posts in the times when they are understandable are exactly as he describes them.

 

[DaveB]

In MAs theres a lot of paths out there and each of them constantly carved out of these faiths with their own bibles. It was always working that way, one faith will serve your reality better while other dont or you just simply can take the best part of manny and be more creative.

Or you could observe what is happening with the individual, study and train in what works well in teaching and developing skill and trial different methods until the most effective is found. No need for faith at all.

The article totally supports me when it states that we have to be in control of our breath so we can affect our whole body and mind. Now on this sentence you say that mind and body are tied (wich i have made no objections) but earlier you still insisted that the act of breathing is only physical. While i have said in the post totally accordingly to the article that conscious breathing its either physical and mental

If you have heard or even practiced any way of conscious breathing only in meditation practices sorry but your traditional karate its missing a big and phenomenal part. Mentally conscious breathing can be applied in a very dynamic way. Ill insist one last time... That ''faith'' its even science supported.

My point has always been that the mental component of martial arts is derived from the physical training. Not that there is no mental component, just that you cannot isolate the mental from the physical in the way that you and Shoto seem to want to do.

So the breathing exercises that help build strength and help you control physiological responses (note: physiological -
physical) are still physical exercises. They can be combined with the mental practices of visualisation and meditation to positive effect, but control over your body and control over your mind are not the same thing.

I have agreed on that since i came first posting, the heavily sports conditioning thing. But again, one hit ko mentality its valid and it exists, its aplicable and desirable in SD. Of course not training what to do next and next if the guy you hit just have the jaws/balls of steel its naive. The mentality its valid and quite important.

Agreed. The confusion comes when people take the idea literally, when Funakoshi actually wrote that we should throw each blow with the intent of a fight ender, not that we should throw only one blow.

 

[DaveB]

This isn't what I've been saying or what Shotokan promotes at all. You don't understand Shotokan, you understand how to criticize Shotokan, which by the way will never be resolved on a blog...

Apologies, when I wrote "Shoto" I was referring to ShotoNoob, not Shotokan. Sorry for the confusion.

I've spoken to just that, repeatedly....
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Good luck with that....

But when I said the same thing in my first post in the thread, you told me it showed my lack of understanding of traditional karate.

 

[Tez3]

Agreed. The confusion comes when people take the idea literally, when Funakoshi actually wrote that we should throw each blow with the intent of a fight ender, not that we should throw only one blow.

It's similar to the 'there's no first strike in karate', whereas people think that means you have to wait until you are hit before you can strike, when most actually believe it means 'don't start a fight if you don't have to ie stupidly' so that if you feel in danger of your life you certainly can make the first strike.

 

[Buka]

We don't get to pick when the fight starts, they do. Sometimes it starts before any strike is thrown.

Hopefully, we get to pick when it ends.

 

[RafaChan]

Or you could observe what is happening with the individual, study and train in what works well in teaching and developing skill and trial different methods until the most effective is found. No need for faith at all.

Be motivated to study and train in what you believe that will be the most effective method for you its a matter of ''verifiable/workable'' kind of personal faith after all. Not that will works with the same efectiveness for everyone, so in that matter its looking like religion. Thats why the label faith that you brought with detrimental sight and taboo can serve.

My point has always been that the mental component of martial arts is derived from the physical training. Not that there is no mental component, just that you cannot isolate the mental from the physical in the way that you and Shoto seem to want to do.

Your point is valid. But the important point of the perfection/development of the physical component of martial arts being derived from the proper mental training its also valid.

Again ill must have to say... If you have concluded that we are isolating the physical component permanently from the mental just coz we have being highlighting it and bringing in more depht to it thats up to your only misjudgement and wrong conclusion. Btw our older posts are not attesting on that. No one have being discussing any kind of psychic blast techniques...

Im pretty sure theres not any kind of psychics or only mental or spiritual entities with no physical bodies discussing on this thread. For example when shoto ''vaguefully'' states that he have to ''out-think'' the boxer and not to ''ou-box'' him, in my conclusion hes saying that he will look for an opening adopting a more defensive manuever or maybe that he have to work in more kicks to add confusion to the boxer strategy. If i conclude with that ''out-think'' will be something psychic will be only a derailed conclusion.

And im pretty aware that the art im in its settled in 3 fundamentals pillars: body, mind and spirit. Not just only body and mind. But if the mental aspect is so misjudged what to say of the spiritual one. But really thats not the point and not the objective of the topic. I hope you can settle all of the misjudgement you have made.

Words can be pretty vague and stigmatized by pretty cheap prejudices and misjudgements out of the wrong conclusions.

 

[RafaChan]

Question: How often do you see really special people regarding MA in your area amongst all of the mob that is focusing/executing the same aproach on hard physical conditioning training?

Ill play Shoto here assuming that my position its already clear. So you guess that what is missing its something more and is what lays in mental as i pointed.

1. I don't make superficial judgements of other martial artists.
2. I don't make leaps of logic until all other options are ruled out.

I have found a nice video to illustrate the point of that question. In that vid you can see a guy performing physical techniques not only using the regular physical/mental aproach of hard mental/physical synapsis conditioning, but with a more in depth - conscious - ''connected'' physical/mental aproach. And thats whats making him special:

Its not a matter of superficial judgement of other martial artist but a very specific and in depth one...

 

[DaveB]

And that's why I don't make judgements about another's training.

Your special is apparently my normal.

If your first look at this instructor showed him demoing loose relaxed techniques that seemed to lack kime, would that mean he didn't know this stuff? Or would it just mean he was working on a different skillset, one you might not know anything about?

 

[RafaChan]

And that's why I don't make judgements about another's training.

I make judgements about others training. And i constantly get for me what i can apply for myself and what i dont accordingly to my own reality, limits and... judgement.

Its quite natural for all humam beings by the way. I dont see why you put one judgement capacitie in such bad spot while you too judge.

Your special is apparently my normal.

So... Accordingly to the vid i showed, you have judged that the aspect of the training wich i found special, its quite similar of what you already do normally. Okay.

That alone doesnt change the fact that these aspect aproach and kind of training being regarded as special by me is not often be seen, and thats what makes it special.
Im judging it by special not using your experiences and training by scope (wich i doesnt know), but im judging from the majority of the people that have forgotten the said aspects and that you can see all around.

If your first look at this instructor showed him demoing loose relaxed techniques that seemed to lack kime, would that mean he didn't know this stuff?

Quoting myself to respond you in a very sensible and fair way regarding my opinion about that:

The fast hip rotation, hands positioning along strong hikite that i havent seen Ian's doing. Maybe he was relaxed coz it was just a demo but for me even for a demo the right way should be in pursue of the right kime.

Or would it just mean he was working on a different skillset, one you might not know anything about?

On the highlighted techs and cases we have being discussing i really dont see other way to achieve the best results in terms of power-kime add in. I myself like to keep my mind always open so i can hear from others in wich ways a different skillset aproach will be valid and how they can serve me and serve others. (osae uke-shuto uke combo remember?) unorthodox aproach of shotokan block nowadays... Lets share...

As an example i can point out the ''non-contraction, non-tension'' way of master egami but im really not in to talk about something that i dont know nor have dedicated sufficient study and practice yet. But note that even him and his different skillset and aproaches are not contradicting what is fundamental.

 

[ShotoNoob]

You will have to be more specific.

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I don't have to do anything. And that's the issue. A vested interested here can't make a general statement or venture an overall opinion. You could have shown a courtesy, yet choose not to....

 

[ShotoNoob]

...I'm pretty sure theres not any kind of psychics or only mental or spiritual entities with no physical bodies discussing on this thread. For example when shoto ''vaguefully'' states that he have to ''out-think'' the boxer and not to ''ou-box'' him, in my conclusion hes saying that he will look for an opening adopting a more defensive manuever or maybe that he have to work in more kicks to add confusion to the boxer strategy. If i conclude with that ''out-think'' will be something psychic will be only a derailed conclusion.

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Like karate master don't speak metaphotically, or doing so to highlight a concept or it's importance. Rafa, bad Shotonoob here should let you do the talking..... NICE Treatise by the way.... Do you think anyone other than "username redacted" will read it?

And im pretty aware that the art im in its settled in 3 fundamentals pillars: body, mind and spirit. Not just only body and mind. But if the mental aspect is so misjudged what to say of the spiritual one. But really thats not the point and not the objective of the topic. I hope you can settle all of the misjudgement you have made.

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NO, RAFA.... the guy or 2 on the east coast & one in Britain claim it's getting together & PHYSICALLY punching the heck out of one another other.... Not that that doesn't work....

Words can be pretty vague and stigmatized by pretty cheap prejudices and misjudgements out of the wrong conclusions.

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I put up some commentary that frankly is explicitly stated in the Shotokan karate manual(s) & in the writings of traditional Shotokan karate masters. Amazing the resistance to realizing there's some great emphasis on the mental dimension in martial applications, that mental activity is a separately definable component of the human entity.... RAFA.... carry on.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

You may think so but most of us find boxers fairly easy. How many times have you sparred boxers? We do regularly as we have regimental boxing teams sent to us for sparring practice because they find us hard to spar, teaches them how to deal with, what is to them, unconventional fighters.

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Ha, ha. Caught you where we finally personally agree. I talked about fighting boxers when I first posted here,,, don't care to revisit.
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I can't image a professional boxer standing up to SD experts.... it's a completely different game. Nonetheless, the mistake that will take me downhill quickly is underestimating my opponent, losing focus on the dangerous potential of the opponent, including boxers.... Best to maintain a healthy respect.....IMO.
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On karate, I was specifically speaking to the more conventional ways of training, the sport karate fighter, as having trouble.... Not on the traditional level....