Shotokan for self defence.

[RafaChan]

Regarding Shotokan and some of his másters and the (most forgotten) mental aspect of training to get inner strenght... What you guys think of those (legendary?) modern shotokan grandmásters?

Heavy dedicated at karate-jutsu. Pretty much more than just hard kicks and punches.

Edit: Shoto, your post # 1338 have some kind of quote bug. Those are not my words.

 

[DaveB]

Pretty much more than just hard kicks and punches.

Actually no, not more. You showed videos of a man explaining and demonstrating physical techniques. He got good at those techniques through physical training. There is always a mental component to any physical activity and because we are controlled by our brains, all movement is led by the mind.

The mental component of karate is a by-product of the physical training. Discipline, determination and focus; these are forged by pushing through hard training with endless repetitions. Mushin and Zanshin come through taking that exhaustion into battle. It is not magic and many other arts have or develop similar concepts.

When you look at a video of someone performing a physical technique, everything you think is happening on a mental level is in your head; you are imagining it. You are not psychic.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Edit: Shoto, your post # 1338 have some kind of quote bug. Those are not my words.

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Corrected RAFA....

ShotoNoob, I'm glad that you are happy with your art and your training and the strange world you inhabit

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THE STRANGE WORLD OF THE TRADITIONAL SHOTOKAN CURRICULUM.
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Good luck with that....

I look forward to seeing some of these non-physically trained karateka thinking (dreaming?) their way to victory against the many inferior combat sports fighters and their obviously flawed tested and proven training methods.

Pandering to the sport fighting crowd. you mean. I never said anything about the physical dimension being omitted. Again, commercialism & hubris vs. traditional Shotokan karate.
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Good luck with the commercial success with that.... The UFC / Matt Thorton's of the world, etc. have been incredibly successful financially with such PROMOTIONAL talk. Go for It...

Good luck with that! )

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Commercialism over principles. Nothing new there...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Regarding Shotokan and some of his másters and the (most forgotten) mental aspect of training to get inner strenght... What you guys think of those (legendary?) modern shotokan grandmásters?

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First Master very impressive. I didn't see him using any focus mitts....
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Nice post on taking a SERIOUS LOOK @ SHOTOKAN....

Edit: Shoto, your post # 1338 have some kind of quote bug. Those are not my words.

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REPOSTED FIX IN POST #1343....

 

[ShotoNoob]

There's a lot of potential in traditional karates, the 'modern' Japanese karates such as Shotokan karate, TKD, TSD, etc.
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Throwing up the popular conventions on sport fighting will not get you there in traditional karate.... Period.
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Good luck with that....

 

[Username Redacted]

Liked your conclusion !

Regarding the advanced mental dimension of the training Shoto was venturing in ill try to help and bring some light accordingly to my experience...

IMO i think when Shoto stated this hes pretty much saying that when (using your mind) you makes your body ''works as a coordinated unit which then extends strength into the technique for power'', that way you are achieving a big part of that said mental dimension and mental discipline.

That is the type of conditioning that makes you surpass and win a bigger enemy that doesnt posses any conditioning on that dimension and have worked only on the physical aspect of the conditioning.

In other words its the smaller guy hitting the bigger guy with much more power and defending from him way more effective.

Thank you, that does help a good bit. It makes a bit more sense to me exactly what was meant by the emphasis on mental discipline in ShotoNoob's posts. I'm still not entirely sure I think it's plausible, though, at least not how ShotoNoob has defined the term. I've yet to see anyone demonstrate that Shotokan training results in more force behind a punch than, for instance, boxing training.

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Refer to MT T on "Mental Clarity" for a start. Otherwise, it's just T propogation....

I'm sorry, but I'm really not clear on what you mean by this. I've googled "Mt T mental clarity" and found nothing.

Your thinking is just how NOT to approach Shotokan karate for self defense. You are just looking at MMA and coming to a "glittering generality" conclusion.
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Specific > Take a look @ the recent Joanna Jedrzejczyk defeat of Jessica Penne. also take a look at the anti-grappling utilized by the victor, Joanna Jedrzejczyk....
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Instead of arguing, try to develop my thesis. Otherwise, I'll put "Little Debbie" doing Shotokan karate up....

I don't believe I've created a "glittering generality" at all. Do you dispute that there are many athletes in MMA who are predominately grapplers and are very successful? If you do not dispute this, do you dispute that the general response by a striker to being grappled is to use his own grappling skills to break free? Your counterexample doesn't really do anything to my general argument.

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The mental discipline as defined by traditional shotokan karate is extremely lacking in MMA....
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Again, you sound like Matt Thorton spouting off some generality that 'world class athlete's' have the essential quality of discipline...
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I'm not talking about the gumption to roll huge tractor tires all over the gym....

How do you define "discipline," then? Because discipline is generally defined as the dominance of higher-level goals over basic desires. In the example of the modern athlete, the higher-level goal would be something like "win the match" and the basic desires are something along the lines of "ow this hurts make it stop." If you're defining "discipline" in a non-standard way, you should be more clear.

By the way, there is a multi-quote feature on this forum and any other forum based on Xenforo software. I don't mean to be rude, but I just looked at a page with at least ten consecutive posts by the same author. Perhaps you would consider using the multiquote feature in the future?

 

[Oldbear343]

Classical karate training (Shotokan, Goju-Ryu, etc) was originated with practical fighting skill in mind, but with the further aim of training the spirit/character. Kata is a means to both - bunkaI + visualisation during kata foster a growing repertoire of practical moves and sharp reaction, while also developing spiritual endurance through tension and repetition. Bear in mind that kumite is practised alongside kihon and kata - the 3 K's. ...
The modern development of sport-oriented martial arts is, in my humble opinion, merely a sign of the times. I have nothing against those who choose that path, but I believe many will, as they age (I am nearly 60), come full-circle to more traditional training....
FWIW I also see parallel changes in the Taekwondo world....
Respect to all ☺

 

[DaveB]

THE STRANGE WORLD OF THE TRADITIONAL SHOTOKAN CURRICULUM.
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Good luck with that....

Pandering to the sport fighting crowd. you mean. I never said anything about the physical dimension being omitted. Again, commercialism & hubris vs. traditional Shotokan karate.
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Good luck with the commercial success with that.... The UFC / Matt Thorton's of the world, etc. have been incredibly successful financially with such PROMOTIONAL talk. Go for It...

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Commercialism over principles. Nothing new there...

You know I've never heard of Matt Thorton, but whatever he did to you its time to let go so that the healing can begin.

Incidentally I've only trained consistently in traditional martial arts, including Shotokan and I don't teach so I'm not sure where you get commercialism from.

I don't mind though. You see, people who automatically resort to slanderous claims the moment someone disagrees with them, usually build their arguments on sand. That is why they need such robust defense. They don’t stand up on their own.

 

[Tez3]

You know I've never heard of Matt Thorton,

I've no idea why Shotonoob keeps name dropping Matt Thornton into his 'interesting' posts because it really isn't relevant to a discussion on Shotokan for self defence. I don't know him but do know a couple of SBG's instructors. Here's Matt Thornton's blog if you want to see who and what he does. Aliveness 101



We've had loads of posts about the 'discipline' of karate, how it makes everything magical ( I think, I don't actually understand the majority of what Shotonoob posts, his sentences, phrases and expressions are odd) I don't see how MMA comes into it other than some always like to drop it into a discussion because it's either 'marvellous, best thing since sliced bread' or it's the 'worst thing ever'. A plain straightforward discussion on Shotokan karate for self defence would be very nice without pseudo mysticism, inflated claims or denigrating karate and it's kata.
We've got sensible posts from Dave B, Username Redacted and Oldbear so I have hope we may have a good discussion starting.

 

[ShotoNoob]

... I'm still not entirely sure I think it's plausible, though, at least not how ShotoNoob has defined the term. I've yet to see anyone demonstrate that Shotokan training results in more force behind a punch than, for instance, boxing training.

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Sounds like a topic for another T.

I'm sorry, but I'm really not clear on what you mean by this. I've googled "Mt T mental clarity" and found nothing.

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My reference was vague. The Martial Talk Forum Thread on, "State of Mind when Fighting." Hope the clears up the confusion I've caused.

I don't believe I've created a "glittering generality" at all. Do you dispute that there are many athletes in MMA who are predominately grapplers and are very successful? If you do not dispute this, do you dispute that the general response by a striker to being grappled is to use his own grappling skills to break free? Your counterexample doesn't really do anything to my general argument.

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That's because it's way too glitteringly general to respond to.... Sorry we're at loggerheads here.

How do you define "discipline," then? Because discipline is generally defined as the dominance of higher-level goals over basic desires. In the example of the modern athlete, the higher-level goal would be something like "win the match" and the basic desires are something along the lines of "ow this hurts make it stop." If you're defining "discipline" in a non-standard way, you should be more clear.

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Ah, you must be a M.T. heavy to say what I should do.... I've written oodles on the mental dimension of tradtional karate. I got this in return.
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View attachment 19340
To which I reply as in the movie, "On Deadly Ground," "Time to buck up for the sudzs...."

By the way, there is a multi-quote feature on this forum and any other forum based on Xenforo software. I don't mean to be rude, but I just looked at a page with at least ten consecutive posts by the same author. Perhaps you would consider using the multiquote feature in the future?

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Yeah, I'm still @ the kihon level re multi-quote. Fouled up recently when using as K-Man's cousin pointed out....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I've no idea why Shotonoob keeps name dropping Matt Thornton into his 'interesting' posts because it really isn't relevant to a discussion on Shotokan for self defence. I don't know him but do know a couple of SBG's instructors. Here's Matt Thornton's blog if you want to see who and what he does. Aliveness 101

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If you're talking about understanding traditional karate, then the Matt Thorton model is relevant so in not confusing what Shotokan karate is versus is not. If that's too much for you, then you have a lot of company.... Thanks for posting the "aliveness" link. Matt Thorton's "aliveness" is popular and has quite a following. His SBG chain is reputed to be very successful. Matt Thorton does not believe in the traditional martial arts model, including Shotokan.
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Point being if you adopt Matt Thorton's aliveness, which is apparent among MT posters here, then your Shotokan karate form (if the Matt Thorton concept is how you are training Shotokan), will fail to attain the effectiveness of Shotokan trained to the principles of the originating & current traditional Masters. That's the relevance and since I have to restate this, let's just agree to disagree.

We've had loads of posts about the 'discipline' of karate, how it makes everything magical ( I think, I don't actually understand the majority of what Shotonoob posts, his sentences, phrases and expressions are odd) I don't see how MMA comes into it other than some always like to drop it into a discussion because it's either 'marvellous, best thing since sliced bread' or it's the 'worst thing ever'. A plain straightforward discussion on Shotokan karate for self defence would be very nice without pseudo mysticism, inflated claims or denigrating karate and it's kata.

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No need to insult something you don't understand or believe in. Only a minority really digs into traditional karate.

We've got sensible posts from Dave B, Username Redacted and Oldbear so I have hope we may have a good discussion starting.

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So promote what you believe in. It's a forum. Frankly, some of the responses to me indicate lack of knowledge of the Shotokan karate curriculum. So how Shotokan for Self Defense revolves around the self-described sensible members.....
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Good Luck with That....
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P.S. "Magical" is a 'glittering generality.'

 

[ShotoNoob]

...We've had loads of posts about the 'discipline' of karate, how it makes everything magical ( I think, I don't actually understand the majority of what Shotonoob posts, his sentences, phrases and expressions are odd) I don't see how MMA comes into it other than some always like to drop it into a discussion because it's either 'marvellous, best thing since sliced bread' or it's the 'worst thing ever'. A plain straightforward discussion on Shotokan karate for self defence would be very nice without pseudo mysticism, inflated claims or denigrating karate and it's kata.

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Your Glittering generalities aside, MMA relates to SD in terms of physical confrontation. Lyoto Machida (Karate + MMA base vs. Yoel Romero (kickboxing + wrestling base) is up this weekend, June 27. Romero, while not ranked among the UFC elite, is reputed to have sound wrestling skills, and to have developed some aggressive power-striking resulting in a record of KO's.
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Will be interesting to see, as K=Man & Rafa would say, Machida's modern Shotokan karate base will stand up to both a grappling & aggressive power striking. We are to witness the striking (Machida) vs. the grappler (Romero), plus Romero's aggressive +
power striking vs. Machida's karate-based evasive mobility.
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Feel free to talk about 3 guys jumping one in a dark ally. I hope to find lesson's @ FN 70.

 

[ShotoNoob]

You know I've never heard of Matt Thorton, but whatever he did to you its time to let go so that the healing can begin

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I've heard this line before. You say below you don't teach, yet you grant yourself the right to condescend. Sounds like you wanna-be an instructor....

Incidentally I've only trained consistently in traditional martial arts, including Shotokan and I don't teach so I'm not sure where you get commercialism from.

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It how you come across. Including putting words in my mouth which I never stated. I can only reply to how you come across.

I don't mind though. You see, people who automatically resort to slanderous claims the moment someone disagrees with them, usually build their arguments on sand. That is why they need such robust defense. They don’t stand up on their own.

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No need to go TWITTER / FACEBOOK. It's a back-and-forth on a martial art forum. geesh....

 

[Tez3]

Shotonoob, I'm sorry, it's not an insult but you ramble. Your sentences are staccato, jumbled and often it's not possible to understand what you are saying. I'm sorry too that you don't seem to understand what other people are saying and it's Matt Thornton btw.
An example... this means what? "Time to buck up for the sudzs...." Nonsense. and this

So how Shotokan for Self Defense revolves around the self-described sensible members.....

this means?

You have your own, unique view of Shotokan karate, that's fine but it doesn't mean everyone has the same view and you are the only one that is correct. You keep bringing up MMA and MMA fighters who are fighting in competitions, the subject under discussion is self defence. Now I will be the first person to say that MMA can be easily turned towards self defence when needed the truth is that MMA fighters can't be compared to people who train MMA for just the enjoyment of training let alone karateka who train for self defence. Oh and I do know what I'm talking about by the way, I'm a traditional karateka, have been for many, many years as well as having a great deal to do with MMA for the past 16 years including training, coaching, judging reffing, cornering etc etc etc. I've also had considerable experience in the job I did before retiring of street fights, muggings and such like before that I was in the military and have seen my fair share of fights.

Romero, while not ranked among the UFC elite, is reputed to have sound wrestling skills, and to have developed some aggressive power-striking resulting in a record of KO's

This has absolutely nothing to do with the subject, I think perhaps you should ask the UFC for advertising fees.

I've heard this line before. You say below you don't teach, yet you grant yourself the right to condescend. Sounds like you wanna-be an instructor....

He wasn't condescending, he was being reasonable however you were being insulting. You can't do that to people. If you are going to comment on how long you've been here as opposed to new people I'd remind you I've been here longer than you and I can say that posting endless posts one after the other is not the best way to go so.

Feel free to talk about 3 guys jumping one in a dark ally. I hope to find lesson's @ FN 70

No idea what you are on about here, I suspect you are having the conversation in your head where it sounds good but when it reaches us it's nonsense because we have no context and it's apropos nothing at all then you add '@FN70' that may mean a lot to you but nothing to me. Your conversations here seem to be with someone other than the posters here, I'm not insulting you here just explaining how your posts come across, it's like being in a three way conversation when you can only hear one other person.

 

[Username Redacted]

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Sounds like a topic for another T.

I don't think it is, actually. The question of whether the mental discipline so important to shotokan has effects like increasing punching power (as its adherents predict) is important to the question of whether that same mental discipline will overcome grappling ability.

My reference was vague. The Martial Talk Forum Thread on, "State of Mind when Fighting." Hope the clears up the confusion I've caused.

I'll take a look, then.

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That's because it's way too glitteringly general to respond to.... Sorry we're at loggerheads here.

If you think so, then alright. But I want to make clear that I wasn't saying that grappling is always, or even usually, superior to striking. What I want to point out instead is that we have lots of examples of strikers being taken to the ground when they didn't want to be on the ground. Can you point out some examples of strikers with no grappling ability managing to get up from the ground, so that I could take a look at them? I'm just very skeptical of the idea that mental discipline can simply overcome physical ability -- I mean, that idea is obviously false in the case of striking. A punch to the face is a punch to the face, no matter how disciplined you are. Why would mental discipline be such a game-changer for grappling?

Ah, you must be a M.T. heavy to say what I should do.... I've written oodles on the mental dimension of tradtional karate. I got this in return.
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View attachment 19340
To which I reply as in the movie, "On Deadly Ground," "Time to buck up for the sudzs...."

Well, let me be more clear, then. You don't have to do anything that you don't want to, but if you're interested in making your position a bit more clear to a new guy who doesn't entirely understand what's going on here (me), then it would really help if you would define mental discipline as you understand it.

Incidentally, I'm sure you've written about your history with shotokan elsewhere, but I was wondering if you'd be willing to explain how you got into shotokan, how you normally practice or train, and (most importantly) how you became convinced that shotokan was effective for self-defense.

The reason I'm a bit dubious of all of this is that I was a TKD practitioner for a very long while, and I really bought into the stances, the exaggerated punches, the focus, the poomse, etc. And then my best friend and I decided to spar and I got my clock cleaned. So I quit TKD, started studying with him, and I'm much happier now.

You have your own, unique view of Shotokan karate, that's fine but it doesn't mean everyone has the same view and you are the only one that is correct. You keep bringing up MMA and MMA fighters who are fighting in competitions, the subject under discussion is self defence. Now I will be the first person to say that MMA can be easily turned towards self defence when needed the truth is that MMA fighters can't be compared to people who train MMA for just the enjoyment of training let alone karateka who train for self defence. Oh and I do know what I'm talking about by the way, I'm a traditional karateka, have been for many, many years as well as having a great deal to do with MMA for the past 16 years including training, coaching, judging reffing, cornering etc etc etc. I've also had considerable experience in the job I did before retiring of street fights, muggings and such like before that I was in the military and have seen my fair share of fights.

I think I may be at fault here, actually, for bringing up MMA and the UFC. My reasoning was simply that although the conditions in UFC don't give us a great opportunity to test styles under self-defense conditions, they do allow us to test general propositions like "mental discipline will overcome grappling ability," a proposition that I think is false.

 

[Tez3]

I think I may be at fault here, actually, for bringing up MMA and the UFC. My reasoning was simply that although the conditions in UFC don't give us a great opportunity to test styles under self-defense conditions, they do allow us to test general propositions like "mental discipline will overcome grappling ability," a proposition that I think is false.

It's not your fault at all, Shotonoob has done it on every thread (on many posts in fact) he's posted on so far, he was at it long before you joined so please don't worry about it.
Your post is a nice one, I look forward to reading the answers but I'm not holding my breath, Shotonoob has been asked before about his background in Shotokan but we've never had an answer.

 

[RafaChan]

Actually no, not more. You showed videos of a man explaining and demonstrating physical techniques. He got good at those techniques through physical training. There is always a mental component to any physical activity and because we are controlled by our brains, all movement is led by the mind.

I can agree with you in some extent when im pretty sure its a physical technique, but in concept its much more. Its physicality is refined at the max by his own work and lecture in the mental aspect of the technic. And thats whats diferentiating him of a lot out of his contemporaries that applied the same effort on the physical training and havent achieved same result.

Im not talking only about that brain synapsis to the body tru endless repetitions that you are saying. If thats the way required to master said technique in perfection, we would see more often more people that have dedicated the same ammount of hard training performing exactly the same way. And in reality its not that way.

The mental aspect/dimension/conditioning that most denied in those vids and are ''hided'' in just hard kickes and punches:

The mental discipline involves a lot of other aspects for me not only KIME, like right breathing, self control, fast responses, right usage of skills and strategies just to name a few... Unfortunelly thats really cant be passed in a more straight forward notion (unless the person its really gifted) and requires some years of dedicated training, conditioning and understandment of what you (and your body) are doing.

That aspect IMO with all of his branches are not objective. They are more on the subjective and thats why maybe we are not being able to met on a common position. The time applied to get good on those are not always directly related by the time you have applied to get good on your physical conditioning.

The mental component of karate is a by-product of the physical training. Discipline, determination and focus; these are forged by pushing through hard training with endless repetitions. Mushin and Zanshin come through taking that exhaustion into battle.

And if we change the order of the factors would that change the final result of that equation? The (perfection/development of the) physical component of karate is a by-product of the mental training (and comprehension). Well, i hope not. And mushin can ideally also be achieved even before battle exhaustion.

It is not magic and many other arts have or develop similar concepts.

Follow the path or paths that will serve you better, we already as human beings have solids foundations regarding SD and MAs

I believe that others are applying those concepts with no ''karate labels'' to very good results. People from other MA that can apply kime without never heard of that before.

If we are labeling those concepts with ''mystical'' like karate - japanese names and you think that is some kind of sorcery/magic its entirely up to your conclusion.

Its a karate shotokan SD related thread afterall and not a MA wizards one. So people that are bothered by those karate concepts and labels and are not able to even respect, get or comprehend/research some of them, at least keep some respect on the discussion.

 

[RafaChan]

Posting an article and other link for the ones interested on being introduced and start to check inside one of the manny branches of the ''magical'' aspects of karate:

''What is Ibuki – The Art of Breathing, how can I use Ibuki and more. The application in your martial arts journey and how you can use it in your life outside of the dojo.

What Is Ibuki? Put simply Ibuki is breathing to a certain pattern or rhythm that changes depending on what you are trying to achieve. In all Karate is the concept of Kime, the use of spirit or body energy, and Kime includes breathing, posture, muscular tension, body movement, and mental focus. Ibuki could be considered purely the breathing aspect of Kime, and the techniques used to develop the breathing aspect of Kime.''... Follow on : Ibuki - The Art of Breathing - Ma-Seirei-Kai

Breathing is the backbone for all meditative processes. All about the mental aspect of training. That was interpreted purely as magic in the medieval age...

While fighting or performing using strong kime all the time can be very consuming ofc will lead you to the best results. Thats why the physical aspect have so much value when acting backing up all this process giving more endurance and resistance to keep high levels of kime.

More here:

''Here’s a thought experiment for you: Think of your brain as a music player. Now think of your muscles as speakers. Where do you think the amplifier is?

In your stomach.

Special “baroreceptors” in your body measure the intra-abdominal pressure and act as the volume control knob. When the IAP bottoms out, the tension in all your muscles drops off. So use your breathing to heighten the internal pressure, making your nervous system more excited. This will make the nerve cells (of your muscles) become“superconductors” of the commands from your brain. So by cranking up the IAP volume knob you automatically get noticeably stronger, in every muscle of your body –in any exercise!

That’s the power of breathing.''

Follow on: Sanchin The 4 Secrets of The Skill of Strength KARATE by Jesse

Love to see how they are high kime-ing... In every move you can hear a little and natural kiai...Thats golden !

''Good luck with all of that''

P.S 1: I must say take it easy with Shoto. Manny times i agree hes vague when explaining but i think some terms of pure ''mysticism'' he have being dropping in here its in conclusion that everyone in a shotokan trhead is already or proly already familiar with them. (first time i saw kime here its he discussing with k-man but no further explanations were given).

P.S 2: He dropped Matt Thorton's dead body to me either ^^. I even doesnt know him and never heard of him before but in the context of the discussion i implied that was some kind of coach/instructor that were relying too much on the physical aspect of conditioning.

Peace to all !

 

[ShotoNoob]

I don't think it is, actually. The question of whether the mental discipline so important to shotokan has effects like increasing punching power (as its adherents predict) is important to the question of whether that same mental discipline will overcome grappling ability.

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I think it's a topic for another T. You want to discuss same here. So weigh in....

I'll take a look, then.

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I believe strong karate , strong martial arts comes from incorporating the material from across the spectrum of principles.... Glad to provide the specific reference, resource for you here @ M.T.

If you think so, then alright. But I want to make clear that I wasn't saying that grappling is always, or even usually, superior to striking. What I want to point out instead is that we have lots of examples of strikers being taken to the ground when they didn't want to be on the ground.

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Absolutely this is a real danger & I've said so here many times. I politely request that those responding to mys posts recognize my acknowledgement of such facts & the positions they have that are similar to what I post.... Can you do that....?

Can you point out some examples of strikers with no grappling ability managing to get up from the ground, so that I could take a look at them? I'm just very skeptical of the idea that mental discipline can simply overcome physical ability -- I mean, that idea is obviously false in the case of striking. A punch to the face is a punch to the face, no matter how disciplined you are. Why would mental discipline be such a game-changer for grappling?

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Again, this 1st sentence suggests that I have some unrealistic view of grappling. Using absolutes like strikers with NO grappling experience managing to get up.... The real challenge is to examine what I have proposed. If you are willing or unable to do so, then don't....
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Again, we are talking about the sophistication that makes Shotokan effective for SD, fighting, etc. Making statements like, "a punch is a punch;" is silly in insulting to the intelligence of the topic. I written extensive posts & have attempted to inject a little levity into same, on addressing key topic points...

Well, let me be more clear, then. You don't have to do anything that you don't want to, but if you're interested in making your position a bit more clear to a new guy who doesn't entirely understand what's going on here (me), then it would really help if you would define mental discipline as you understand it.

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I would rather you review my extensive writings & paraphrase same. I have also made references which could be tapped. Or compare against other posters who have tracked my views and try to pull something cohesive together....

Incidentally, I'm sure you've written about your history with shotokan elsewhere, but I was wondering if you'd be willing to explain how you got into shotokan, how you normally practice or train, and (most importantly) how you became convinced that shotokan was effective for self-defense.

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No problem. Actually I do not train Shotokan. I train a style of traditional karate which is based largely off of Shotokan. It's a style which is common in my area. Shotokan is not. Moreover, I personally do not care for Shotokan as a karate style. I feel though, that Shotokan has a number of attributes that make it a good style to learn about traditional karate. Other prominent karate bloggers out there had come to the same conclusion, and have adapted or changed or cross-trained in other styles of traditional karate.... Shotokan is very popular and many like Shotokan because it's attributes...
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On training regimen, short version. I believe in the traditional karate model of kihon, kata, kumite. I trained all the traditional karate components, including the exercises such as basic physical conditioning, basic traditional techniques, kata, originally the Taikyoku-like kata, now revisiting & focusing largely on the heian (pinon re Okinawan versions) kata, and ippon kumite & self defense applications. I avoid free sparring as a general rule.
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Shotokan, as any traditional karate, is effective for self defense because it promotes mind over body. Mental discipline powers the techniques & tactics, although physical force is used in same. Tang Soo Do IMO, reading here @ MT, gives a good, general account of what human capability is and how that translates into traditional karate....

The reason I'm a bit dubious of all of this is that I was a TKD practitioner for a very long while, and I really bought into the stances, the exaggerated punches, the focus, the poomse, etc.

Yeah, TKD gets the most criticism that I've experienced. Trained to the traditional karate standards I've talked about, which are inherent in TKD--TKD is very good for self defense.... even having some advantages over Shotokan karate, IMO.... Again, I think the failure's people talk about for TKD are due to inadequate instruction, and inadequate effort on the part of the student. I endorse the style of TKD as a traditional martial art. i would never train TKD myself. That's a personal choice.

And then my best friend and I decided to spar and I got my clock cleaned. So I quit TKD, started studying with him, and I'm much happier now.

OK, you made a choice that worked better for you. The whole Matt Thornton (Tez gave me a spelling lesson btw) crowd agrees with you. You've got tons & tons of company.
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I found that the traditional karate (in your case TKD) exercises confer mental discipline which then translates into mind/body unity. I've said this here @ martial talk probably a dozen times (or more)... So at some point IMO, posters need to stop typing in replies to me like, "a punch is a punch," and do some research & some independent verification. Same are free so reject my approach and go the Matt Thornton route, the conventional MMA route, the Matt Bryers path, etc. I can not add to the efforts of same....
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For grappling, combat jujitsu, I reviewed the Matt Bryers program as he presented here @ MT and it sounds to me like there is a good fit there for you in terms of training philosophy & applications. So go for it....[smiley's not working].

...I think I may be at fault here, actually, for bringing up MMA and the UFC. My reasoning was simply that although the conditions in UFC don't give us a great opportunity to test styles under self-defense conditions, they do allow us to test general propositions like "mental discipline will overcome grappling ability," a proposition that I think is false.

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Oh but UFC does present SD situations. Just not to the degree the professional big-boys here @ M.T. incorporate, like BVC & Co., etc... That's my view.
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On the mental discipline over grappling, we will see what happens on Machida vs. Romero @ FN 70 this Saturday.... Since the mental dimension of traditional karate I have proposed has no value to you, I suggest you abandon the idea altogether. Little Debbie in my board-breakinjg post gets it....
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Best of luck with that....

 

[RafaChan]

Thank you, that does help a good bit. It makes a bit more sense to me exactly what was meant by the emphasis on mental discipline in ShotoNoob's posts. I'm still not entirely sure I think it's plausible, though, at least not how ShotoNoob has defined the term. I've yet to see anyone demonstrate that Shotokan training results in more force behind a punch than, for instance, boxing training.

No problem. I hope my earlier posts have helped even more on that matter. Regarding at ''Shotokan training results in more force behind a punch than, for instance, boxing training'' i dont know if you have read this entire thread till here coz we talked a little about that earlier. But all i can say its karate punches kinda abuse of seiken, the first two knuckles of our hand... Despite the hips body weight rotation its very similar mechanicaly and in concept by the boxer training, karate have more particularities to add:

In the past when karate did not have any focus in sports and kumite the core of the physical training for techniques power were kata, tameshiwari and makiwara.

Seiken doesnt works with focus mitts or gloves on...