I don't think it is, actually. The question of whether the mental discipline so important to shotokan has effects like increasing punching power (as its adherents predict) is important to the question of whether that same mental discipline will overcome grappling ability.
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I think it's a topic for another T. You want to discuss same here. So weigh in....
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I believe strong karate , strong martial arts comes from incorporating the material from across the spectrum of principles.... Glad to provide the specific reference, resource for you here @ M.T.
If you think so, then alright. But I want to make clear that I wasn't saying that grappling is always, or even usually, superior to striking. What I want to point out instead is that we have lots of examples of strikers being taken to the ground when they didn't want to be on the ground.
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Absolutely this is a
real danger & I've said so here
many times. I politely request that those responding to mys posts recognize my acknowledgement of such facts & the positions they have that are similar to what I post.... Can you do that....?
Can you point out some examples of strikers with no grappling ability managing to get up from the ground, so that I could take a look at them? I'm just very skeptical of the idea that mental discipline can simply overcome physical ability -- I mean, that idea is obviously false in the case of striking. A punch to the face is a punch to the face, no matter how disciplined you are. Why would mental discipline be such a game-changer for grappling?
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Again, this 1st sentence suggests that I have some unrealistic view of grappling. Using absolutes like strikers with NO grappling experience managing to get up.... The real challenge is to examine what I have proposed. If you are willing or unable to do so, then don't....
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Again, we are talking about the sophistication that makes Shotokan effective for SD, fighting, etc. Making statements like, "a punch is a punch;" is silly in insulting to the intelligence of the topic. I written extensive posts & have attempted to inject a little levity into same, on addressing key topic points...
Well, let me be more clear, then. You don't have to do anything that you don't want to, but if you're interested in making your position a bit more clear to a new guy who doesn't entirely understand what's going on here (me), then it would really help if you would define mental discipline as you understand it.
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I would rather you review my extensive writings & paraphrase same. I have also made references which could be tapped. Or compare against other posters who have tracked my views and try to pull something cohesive together....
Incidentally, I'm sure you've written about your history with shotokan elsewhere, but I was wondering if you'd be willing to explain how you got into shotokan, how you normally practice or train, and (most importantly) how you became convinced that shotokan was effective for self-defense.
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No problem. Actually I do not train Shotokan. I train a style of traditional karate which is based largely off of Shotokan. It's a style which is common in my area. Shotokan is not. Moreover, I personally do not care for Shotokan as a karate style. I feel though, that Shotokan has a number of attributes that make it a good style to learn about traditional karate. Other prominent karate bloggers out there had come to the same conclusion, and have adapted or changed or cross-trained in other styles of traditional karate.... Shotokan is very popular and many like Shotokan because it's attributes...
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On training regimen, short version. I believe in the traditional karate model of kihon, kata, kumite. I trained all the traditional karate components, including the exercises such as basic physical conditioning, basic traditional techniques, kata, originally the Taikyoku-like kata, now revisiting & focusing largely on the heian (pinon re Okinawan versions) kata, and ippon kumite & self defense applications. I avoid free sparring as a general rule.
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Shotokan, as any traditional karate, is effective for self defense because it promotes mind over body. Mental discipline powers the techniques & tactics, although physical force is used in same. Tang Soo Do IMO, reading here @ MT, gives a good, general account of what human capability is and how that translates into traditional karate....
The reason I'm a bit dubious of all of this is that I was a TKD practitioner for a very long while, and I really bought into the stances, the exaggerated punches, the focus, the poomse, etc.
Yeah, TKD gets the most criticism that I've experienced. Trained to the traditional karate standards I've talked about, which are inherent in TKD--TKD is very good for self defense.... even having some advantages over Shotokan karate, IMO.... Again, I think the failure's people talk about for TKD are due to inadequate instruction, and inadequate effort on the part of the student. I endorse the style of TKD as a traditional martial art. i would never train TKD myself. That's a personal choice.
And then my best friend and I decided to spar and I got my clock cleaned. So I quit TKD, started studying with him, and I'm much happier now.
OK, you made a choice that worked better for you. The whole Matt Thornton (Tez gave me a spelling lesson btw) crowd agrees with you. You've got tons & tons of company.
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I found that the traditional karate (in your case TKD) exercises confer mental discipline which then translates into mind/body unity. I've said this here @ martial talk probably a dozen times (or more)... So at some point IMO, posters need to stop typing in replies to me like, "a punch is a punch," and do some research & some independent verification. Same are free so reject my approach and go the Matt Thornton route, the conventional MMA route, the Matt Bryers path, etc. I can not add to the efforts of same....
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For grappling, combat jujitsu, I reviewed the Matt Bryers program as he presented here @ MT and it sounds to me like there is a good fit there for you in terms of training philosophy & applications. So go for it....[smiley's not working].
...I think I may be at fault here, actually, for bringing up MMA and the UFC. My reasoning was simply that although the conditions in UFC don't give us a great opportunity to test styles under self-defense conditions, they do allow us to test general propositions like "mental discipline will overcome grappling ability," a proposition that I think is false.
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Oh but UFC does present SD situations. Just not to the degree the professional big-boys here @ M.T. incorporate, like BVC & Co., etc... That's my view.
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On the mental discipline over grappling, we will see what happens on Machida vs. Romero @ FN 70 this Saturday.... Since the mental dimension of traditional karate I have proposed has no value to you, I suggest you abandon the idea altogether. Little Debbie in my board-breakinjg post gets it....
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Best of luck with that....
)
Liked your conclusion !
I've written oodles on the mental dimension of tradtional karate. I got this in return.
