Shotokan for self defence.

[RTKDCMB]

Are these "incorrect" methods knocking people out in real situations?

Rarely.

 

[drop bear]

Rarely.

So the whole striking element is basically ineffective?

 

[RTKDCMB]

So the whole striking element is basically ineffective?

It is if you do it poorly.

 

[drop bear]

It is if you do it poorly.

Ok. If I was to judge effective striking in a mma bout.(or quite simply any fight) I assume it would be judged by how effectively that striking finished that fight. Vs how effectively it is defended.

I could look at fights finished with striking and suggest that is what striking should look like.

 

[drop bear]

Rarely.

Can you explain to me why there is more ko,s Than submissions.

MMA Finishes Chart MMA Fight DB

 

[drop bear]

Rarely.

MMA KO Chart MMA Fight DB

And statistically the type of strikes that finish fights.

 

[K-man]

Can you explain to me why there is more ko,s Than submissions.

MMA Finishes Chart MMA Fight DB

So, statistically speaking, most fights have ineffective striking because more fights are decided by decision than KO?

 

[drop bear]

So, statistically speaking, most fights have ineffective striking because more fights are decided by decision than KO?

Doesn't matter if 10% of fights finish with striking. You could look at that 10% and find out what effective looks like.

And the decision is based at least partially on who has the more effective striking.

 

[K-man]

Doesn't matter if 10% of fights finish with striking. You could look at that 10% and find out what effective looks like.

And the decision is based at least partially on who has the more effective striking.

My comment was facetious.

 

[drop bear]

My comment was facetious.

Lol I am trying to defend against the idea that striking that ends fights kind of sort of doesn't because reasons. So how can I tell what is just a sideways step away from reality and a joke?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Wow! There are books written on that and you expect a short answer?

OK, I'll try....
Traditional karate is close quarter fighting and the kata is designed around that. If that is not the case kata cannot work as intended because fighting is not choreographed. Bunkai works on a predetermined response, ie block with the only arm available or get hit. Unless you have seen bunkai trained this way you probably won't understand what I am saying but both Iain Abernethy and Masaji Tiara use this all the time.

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You covered a massive amount of ground in your response to my query on the "essence of karate." Of course you had to paraphrase to conserve space. So, I'm still wrestling with your 1st answer-block.
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I want to explore your statement above about the design of kata. And more specifically, what you mean by saying, "Bunkai works on a predetermined response...." Are you talking about bunkai experts such as I.A. demonstrating practical applications grown out of the bunkai form presented in kata?
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To me, the concept of bunkai is pretty straightforward. The applications, then become more complex as the base form shown in kata must be adapted & applied to a particular self defense situation which we can only infer from the kata.
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In terms of kumite style, my personal style should be defined as "infighting." I believe I have always used the Okinawan model which you describe "close quarter fighting," which I dub move-in-and-destroy." This is generalized to include step-back-and-destroy, stand-still-and-destroy. It's the opponent's actions that contribute to the choice of precise positional strategy....
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However, contrary to yours & popular opinion, IMO, the "infighting concept," these tactical concepts I've spelled out are presented in the Japanese karates & Korean-karate based styles. This highlight's one of my lead-in to calling such "traditional karates."

 

[ShotoNoob]

APPLICATION TO SHOTOKAN FOR SELF DEFENSE.
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Since I have dubbed my kumite style as "move in & destroy," In line with what K-Man I think may be talking about predetermined responses, the motion of the assailant will dictate or more accurately play a part in our response on how we move ourselves.
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However, I favor the "move-in" response because it accomplishes several working objectives. We establish a presence that the attack will not go unanswered. This typically startles the aggressively minded who may presume the defender will be put on the defensive & retreat or cover-up, etc..
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Secondly, it changes the technical dynamic where the spacing has changed therefore the initial sortie on the part of the attacker will likely fail. The prone to failure will be completed by enacting defensive & offensive tactics made advantages by the move-in. One of the tactical advantages is that the attacker's vulnerable body parts is now within reach & one or more exposed. Furthermore, any committed technique by the attacker based on my position before I moved in, that target is now no longer where it was. Moreover, my movement signals that I now may take any number of actions which the attacker is now faced with figuring out--BAM--too late!!!
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In discussing kumite, the fighting dynamic, I would replace the word Pre-determined with determine.

 

[K-man]

I think this thread is so disjointed I will start a new thread, bearing in mind we have been through a lot of it before in other bunkai threads.

 

[RTKDCMB]

MMA KO Chart MMA Fight DB

And statistically the type of strikes that finish fights.

And is there a statistic for the average number of strikes thrown before the fights are ended on a KO?

There was one MMA fight I saw on TV where there were over 200 strikes thrown by each fighter and the fight still went to the judges for a decision. I saw another where a whole bunch of strikes were thrown but the one that ended it was a punch to the solar plexus, after which Joe Rogan said "He hit him right in the solar plexus, I don't think I've ever seen that before".

Also how many of those KO's were produced because one fighter did not have his hands up or was swinging wildly and not aiming for anything in particular..

One of the reasons we in the traditional arts spend so much time working on our technique in the basics and patterns is to avoid wild unguided strikes and sloppy strikes.. That is not to say that sloppy striking only happens in MMA but to put it up as the standard what all martial arts striking should look like is naive.

 

[drop bear]

And is there a statistic for the average number of strikes thrown before the fights are ended on a KO?

There was one MMA fight I saw on TV where there were over 200 strikes thrown by each fighter and the fight still went to the judges for a decision. I saw another where a whole bunch of strikes were thrown but the one that ended it was a punch to the solar plexus, after which Joe Rogan said "He hit him right in the solar plexus, I don't think I've ever seen that before".

Also how many of those KO's were produced because one fighter did not have his hands up or was swinging wildly and not aiming for anything in particular..

One of the reasons we in the traditional arts spend so much time working on our technique in the basics and patterns is to avoid wild unguided strikes and sloppy strikes.. That is not to say that sloppy striking only happens in MMA but to put it up as the standard what all martial arts striking should look like is naive.

You are suggesting your method works better than the method that actually works.

I don't know how else to say this but I am sorry. The reality of a fight does not look like your pre conceived notion of what a fight should look like.

 

[drop bear]

And is there a statistic for the average number of strikes thrown before the fights are ended on a KO?

There was one MMA fight I saw on TV where there were over 200 strikes thrown by each fighter and the fight still went to the judges for a decision. I saw another where a whole bunch of strikes were thrown but the one that ended it was a punch to the solar plexus, after which Joe Rogan said "He hit him right in the solar plexus, I don't think I've ever seen that before".

Also how many of those KO's were produced because one fighter did not have his hands up or was swinging wildly and not aiming for anything in particular..

One of the reasons we in the traditional arts spend so much time working on our technique in the basics and patterns is to avoid wild unguided strikes and sloppy strikes.. That is not to say that sloppy striking only happens in MMA but to put it up as the standard what all martial arts striking should look like is naive.

Ok of the strikes that do end fights. Do they resemble the sort of striking that you think should end fights?

 

[Steve]

And is there a statistic for the average number of strikes thrown before the fights are ended on a KO?

There was one MMA fight I saw on TV where there were over 200 strikes thrown by each fighter and the fight still went to the judges for a decision. I saw another where a whole bunch of strikes were thrown but the one that ended it was a punch to the solar plexus, after which Joe Rogan said "He hit him right in the solar plexus, I don't think I've ever seen that before".

Also how many of those KO's were produced because one fighter did not have his hands up or was swinging wildly and not aiming for anything in particular..

One of the reasons we in the traditional arts spend so much time working on our technique in the basics and patterns is to avoid wild unguided strikes and sloppy strikes.. That is not to say that sloppy striking only happens in MMA but to put it up as the standard what all martial arts striking should look like is naive.

Well, I have to say it made me literally laugh out loud when you suggest that it's the MMA athletes who aren't keeping their hands up... in a thread about Olympic TKD. I mean, over generalizing is usually a bad idea, but in this case it's also ironic.

Personally, I think you should watch some more MMA, or even better, spend a few months training in a quality MMA gym. While the athletes who compete are at different stages on the spectrum of expertise, striking in MMA is very technical. Where they're carrying their hands is usually a function of wise technique, if you're in danger of being taken to the ground, or fatigue, which happens when you fight for a really long time.

If we have the UFC in mind, in any two competitors, we're talking about guys who are at an elite level, who train to hit and avoid taking hits. And even so, we know that one punch in the right spot can end the fight. At the high end, you have guys with very, very technical striking in each weight class. The best example I can think of is Demetrius Johnson. And even the guys who are still working on counter punching, head movement and ring control can throw solid combinations.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well, I have to say it made me literally laugh out loud when you suggest that it's the MMA athletes who aren't keeping their hands up... in a thread about Olympic TKD

One slight flaw in your reasoning - this is the 'Shotokan for self defense' thread.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Well, I have to say it made me literally laugh out loud when you suggest that it's the MMA athletes who aren't keeping their hands up... in a thread about Olympic TKD. I mean, over generalizing is usually a bad idea, but in this case it's also ironic.

Personally, I think you should watch some more MMA, or even better, spend a few months training in a quality MMA gym. While the athletes who compete are at different stages on the spectrum of expertise, striking in MMA is very technical. Where they're carrying their hands is usually a function of wise technique, if you're in danger of being taken to the ground, or fatigue, which happens when you fight for a really long time.
.

It's a well known fact that UFC guys strike very poorly. Take for example Tim Sylvia, never knocked out, and Ray Mercer, an old has been, only needed to strike him once, and Sylvia didn't just go down, he feel asleep.

But MMA guys will always try to convey that they are the toughest guys on the planet, and the number one pound for pound fighter in UFC is also the number one pound for pound fighter inte the world. A silly notion.

 

[Steve]

One slight flaw in your reasoning - this is the 'Shotokan for self defense' thread.

Lol. My bad. Pre coffee. Hehe.


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